JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Black Widow]

This is not true , i m talking about the bolded part, It has been mentioned time and time again that China is also concentrating on a single engine stealth aircraft somewhat similar to F-35 to make a combo of a heavy weight twin engine costly stealth fighter and a light weight single engine relatively cheap stealth fighter, Not only they are concentrating on that for themselves but also for PAF , work is on the way and few designs have been presented to PAF to select from them .

Last bolded part is also bit fragile on your part and still you are not clear about that , RCS does play an important part no matter from which generation an aircraft belongs, Total RCS of an aircraft is the sum of RCS of clean body plus the RCS of weapons load its like

X+Y= Total RCS

where X is the RCS of clean body while Y is that of the loaded bombs, missiles etc

Total RCS is dependent on the value of X and y if X will decrease then the Total RCS will also decrease like in case of an aircraft having clean body RCS of 4 while with load its 6 so , 4+6=10

while if it has the clean body RCS of 1 while that of load is 6 so, 1+6=7

so it shows how significant an aircraft's clean body RCS matters as it has direct effect on total RCS .

Secondly the detection range ofr a radar depens upon its capability as well as the RCS of the targeted fighter , if a radar has a range of 120km for an aircraft having RCS 10m2 , then it will detect the first aircraft at 120km where as for second aircraft it will be less than 120km , and approx somewhere around 80km .

For first point of your comment, many chiese senior members have quoted that china focus is on J20 , China is not planning any single engine Stealth. I quoted them. But as we know china, we can't tell anything for sure. May be they are working something like F35.. (Under cloud of uncertainty)

@Second part : I know RCS is not simple addition. I have read +2 physics and know bout constructive and destructive interference.. During testing phase RCS is checked in chambers so that there should not be external interference. I also know that RCS doesn't depends upon size of plane.

It is observed that RCS (Frontal) of fully loaded F16 is somewhat between 4-5m2 .wheras naked F16 has frontal RCS of 1-2 m2. Similarly I checked many fighters with loaded and naked configuration. I observed that Weapons add 3-5 m2 of RCS depends upon type of weapons. Similarly I checked the info for other 4th gen fighter. I got the same result. Base on these fact I made my comment.


@ missiles: I just checked the missile ranges. The BVRs are capable to bring down a plane (if lucky) at 100Km (maximum) at high altitude. Radars of Air superiority fighter (F16 B52, MiG29SMT, MiG29K, Su30MKI) are capable enough to track a 2-3m2 object within this range. So RCS reduction won't make any significant difference in 4th generation planes...

 

[Mani2020]

For first point of your comment, many chiese senior members have quoted that china focus is on J20 , China is not planning any single engine Stealth. I quoted them. But as we know china, we can't tell anything for sure. May be they are working something like F35.. (Under cloud of uncertainty)

@Second part : I know RCS is not simple addition. I have read +2 physics and know bout constructive and destructive interference.. During testing phase RCS is checked in chambers so that there should not be external interference. I also know that RCS doesn't depends upon size of plane.

It is observed that RCS (Frontal) of fully loaded F16 is somewhat between 4-5m2 .wheras naked F16 has frontal RCS of 1-2 m2. Similarly I checked many fighters with loaded and naked configuration. I observed that Weapons add 3-5 m2 of RCS depends upon type of weapons. Similarly I checked the info for other 4th gen fighter. I got the same result. Base on these fact I made my comment.


@ missiles: I just checked the missile ranges. The BVRs are capable to bring down a plane (if lucky) at 100Km (maximum) at high altitude. Radars of Air superiority fighter (F16 B52, MiG29SMT, MiG29K, Su30MKI) are capable enough to track a 2-3m2 object within this range. So RCS reduction won't make any significant difference in 4th generation planes...

What i said about a Chinese single engine stealth aircraft is from some credible sources so one can't deny that fact , though there focus is on J-20 but their current facilities and the speed at which they are progressing is baffling so one have no doubt about any under going programs

As for your 3rd part is concerned its debatable as i already said that the ranges of radars are dependent on RCS of the target thus are not stable for any aircraft and varies according to the RCS of the aircraft you are countering , as far as the BVR is concerned no matter how long range it has as far as your radar doesn't detect the target it can't be fired

F-16 and Mig-29 both belong to 4th generation , but suppose that the RCS of mig-29 is 5m2 fully loaded while the RCS of f-16 is 3m2 fully loaded and both have similar radar ranges (just for supposition, to make it bit easier) so mig-29 with more RCS compared to f-16 will have a greater chance to be detected by an F-16 radar way before mig-29 can detect f-16 thus giving f-16 a chance to have first shoot capability

Hence we can conclude that RCS of an aircraft do matter , no matter if they are 4 generation or else

 

[ziaulislam]

first let stick to JF-17
Blck 2 is suppose to have reduce RCS by working on the nose and adding and augmenting composites at specail areas.

For example if jf-17 is able to have a clean RCS of less than 1m2 its RCS may not be 3-4 loaded as Jf-17 may not carry so many bombs or fuel tanks in a particular mission.it may only be equipped with 2-4BVrs which wouldnt give it a huge RCS..RCS may end up near 2-3m2
this would matter why?
1.today missles are fire and forget with their own seekers
2. if two JF-17 encounters a mig29 and fire it missles simultaneously on one target ..so does the mig29 what will be left for the missles to target in terminal phase will be clean RCS plane
3. Lesser the RCS means more advantage during jamming the opposing radar

they are several other advantages and scenarios where lower RCS come into play..

 

[itaskol]

What i said about a Chinese single engine stealth aircraft is from some credible sources so one can't deny that fact , though there focus is on J-20 but their current facilities and the speed at which they are progressing is baffling so one have no doubt about any under going programs

I do believe that we will develop single engine stealth aircraft. maybe already in developing
but the problem we have to face is the jet engine. jet engine is never our suprior product. it is in fact our weakness.
ws10 serie is for 4 gen fighter, can not be good enough for 5 gen fighter.
ws15 is still under testing. and will first be used on two engine fighter. it could take long time to be proved that can be safe using for single engine fighter.

anyway, what I dont understand is why pakistan is so interested on stealth fighter.
in fact you dont need it really. because even you get 500 f22 , it will not scare Indian.

1). die territory of pakistan is relative small. and the shape is narrow.
if in war even the short rang ballistic missle and cruiss missile of indian can cover all your airports.
just like we to taiwan. in worse case, most of your fighter can not take off.

2). even chinese made single engine 5er fighter could not be cheap.
your milltary budget is already at high propotion of gdp.
if you spend lot of money on 5gen fighter that is.... not good

your target is denfending yourself and slow down indian but dont make your self go bankrupt.
the best way to count Indian military thread is thousands missiles and guidingrocket, submarianes...but not stealth fighter.
it is easier that you get enough missiles (realmissil+decoy missile) to threat indian( and indian have to bulid more defending missile ,defending missile cost more)

you are now in peace time, so spend more money on economy and your infractructure.

in fact we are better in missile technologie than stealth fighter.
and in economy and infrasture we can help you more than stealth fighter.

 

[gambit]

Distance is a factor of RCS calculation and a perspective.

For example: To use rough numbers for ease of visualization, an F-16 has an RCS of 1m2 at 100km. Can a B-52 have the same RCS value? Yes, but at 500km. Can an F-22 have the same? Yes, but right in front of you.

If we use distance of 100km, the F-16 may have an RCS of 1m2, the B-52 may have 100m2, and the F-22 will not be displayed at all.

 

[Beast]

its not good for us to depend upon china , its really bad , indeginious things are indeginious. china has good relations with russia but dont depends much on it , china learnt alot from russia but not dependant any more, so dont think like slaves and be a pakistani
elect a good govenment and start your own r&d i dont say to invent the wheel from scratch but to do like what china did, other wise we cant afford shopping frm the world in far comming future

You think RD is cheap? Do you know how much time and effort china spend before we have our own jet engine , Avoinics , radar and space program? You need a gigAntic economy and tons of cash. Cos you need to develop you own pool of talents, invest in tietiary and have fat bonus to attract talents. You Need a strong industries with sound infrastructure to have a foundation to develop yr military product. You think it can be done in just 10 years time without China assist?

 

[Beast]

I do believe that we will develop single engine stealth aircraft. maybe already in developing
but the problem we have to face is the jet engine. jet engine is never our suprior product. it is in fact our weakness.
ws10 serie is for 4 gen fighter, can not be good enough for 5 gen fighter.
ws15 is still under testing. and will first be used on two engine fighter. it could take long time to be proved that can be safe using for single engine fighter.

anyway, what I dont understand is why pakistan is so interested on stealth fighter.
in fact you dont need it really. because even you get 500 f22 , it will not scare Indian.

1). die territory of pakistan is relative small. and the shape is narrow.
if in war even the short rang ballistic missle and cruiss missile of indian can cover all your airports.
just like we to taiwan. in worse case, most of your fighter can not take off.

2). even chinese made single engine 5er fighter could not be cheap.
your milltary budget is already at high propotion of gdp.
if you spend lot of money on 5gen fighter that is.... not good

your target is denfending yourself and slow down indian but dont make your self go bankrupt.
the best way to count Indian military thread is thousands missiles and guidingrocket, submarianes...but not stealth fighter.
it is easier that you get enough missiles (realmissil+decoy missile) to threat indian( and indian have to bulid more defending missile ,defending missile cost more)

you are now in peace time, so spend more money on economy and your infractructure.

in fact we are better in missile technologie than stealth fighter.
and in economy and infrasture we can help you more than stealth fighter.

Agree brother! China compass GPS for whole Asia continent will be ready in 2012. Having more cheap precise and long rocket/cruise missile is a better strategy and wise move. Next year pakistan can rely on friendly china GPS and need not depend on US who will sure to turn off signal for pakistan in an India- pakistan war. Large number of precise strike can be carry out with reliable GPS.

 

[itaskol]

its not good for us to depend upon china , its really bad , indeginious things are indeginious. china has good relations with russia but dont depends much on it , china learnt alot from russia but not dependant any more, so dont think like slaves and be a pakistani
elect a good govenment and start your own r&d i dont say to invent the wheel from scratch but to do like what china did, other wise we cant afford shopping frm the world in far comming future

what are you talkling about??
1. we consider pakistan as friend and ally/
why slaves? we never try to controll pakistan.
2. r/d on 5gen fighter by your own? it needed enough money , tecnology and time.
and even you will finally success. it can not scare indian. because of strategy geograohy reason.
but R/D on some area is necessary, like for missile satelite ...
spend your limited budget on something which more important than 5 gen fighter.

3."its not good for us to depend upon china , its really bad"
?? it does not called "depend upon china". but helping each other.
we have to stay close together to slow down indian speed. and make your economy growing faster.

 

[lutfishah]

Bro.. don't worry about him he just not sound like a Pakistani..

 

[Areesh]

what are you talkling about??
1. we consider pakistan as friend and ally/
why slaves? we never try to controll pakistan.
2. r/d on 5gen fighter by your own? it needed enough money , tecnology and time.
and even you will finally success. it can not scare indian. because of strategy geograohy reason.
but R/D on some area is necessary, like for missile satelite ...
spend your limited budget on something which more important than 5 gen fighter.

3."its not good for us to depend upon china , its really bad"
?? it does not called "depend upon china". but helping each other.
we have to stay close together to slow down indian speed. and make your economy growing faster.

Leave him sir. It was his personal perspective and let me guarantee you Pakistanis in general doesn't share the same perspective with him about China. A huge majority has very positive perception about China and considers it a brotherly nation.

 

[Xracer2]

somebody PLz Cheak his IP address.an indian hiding behind Pakistani Flag

 

[zavis2003]

what are you talkling about??
1. we consider pakistan as friend and ally/
why slaves? we never try to controll pakistan.
2. r/d on 5gen fighter by your own? it needed enough money , tecnology and time.
and even you will finally success. it can not scare indian. because of strategy geograohy reason.
but R/D on some area is necessary, like for missile satelite ...
spend your limited budget on something which more important than 5 gen fighter.

3."its not good for us to depend upon china , its really bad"
?? it does not called "depend upon china". but helping each other.
we have to stay close together to slow down indian speed. and make your economy growing faster.

i have to say sorry if some one is hurt but being in china for so many time what i felt i wrote and i worked closely with chinese so i better know the things i am not against china but i want that we should be indeginious , in this forums there are so many kids who even dont know about realities , i dont want to introduce myself , and i need not to ! otherwise my introduction is enough to keep you people shut up ! show some ettiquates please

 

[Viper0011.]

I don't know anyone here so my post shouldn't be taken as an 'Indian' or whatever as a lot of people or kids, respond with total immaturity.
I've looked at zavis2003's post. I don't know his background or anything but I do have to say, people don't need to stop others from posting their ideas or suggestions about anything. I think the post could've been written a little better but I think the main point he was trying to make was that the country shouldn't just become dependent upon China (after doing so with the U.S. for over six decades) and that there should be equal focus on local production or tot of all systems being purchased. Whether Pakistan can afford it or not, that's a separate story but I can respect the opinion as it shows care for the country.
I think the point was very valid but the way it was being made may be a little unconventional (using the 'servant' term). I think we are all people and react or act differently. So I don't think that the post had anything serious about China or anyone else. I think it is a known fact that Pakistanis (And I admit, ALL ) respect China and care for her as a close friend. I don't think this post changes that.
Let's not drag our feet on something so minor. The topic was going great. Let's continue a healthy discussion and let people express their ideas or suggestions with care and respect to all (I might add)!!! Happy posts!

 

[Doctor09]

i have to say sorry if some one is hurt but being in china for so many time what i felt i wrote and i worked closely with chinese so i better know the things i am not against china but i want that we should be indeginious , in this forums there are so many kids who even dont know about realities , i dont want to introduce myself , and i need not to ! otherwise my introduction is enough to keep you people shut up ! show some ettiquates please

now i am curious i think you should introduce yourself first.........
no offense but SIR etiquettes require intro too
i am agree with you that Pakistan should not depend on anyone but China is our friend and friends help each other so its not about disrepect.......friends always help each other so getting help from china is not bad thing......its good for us and China is also helping us in developing our own technology

 

[Beast]

I don't know anyone here so my post shouldn't be taken as an 'Indian' or whatever as a lot of people or kids, respond with total immaturity.
I've looked at zavis2003's post. I don't know his background or anything but I do have to say, people don't need to stop others from posting their ideas or suggestions about anything. I think the post could've been written a little better but I think the main point he was trying to make was that the country shouldn't just become dependent upon China (after doing so with the U.S. for over six decades) and that there should be equal focus on local production or tot of all systems being purchased. Whether Pakistan can afford it or not, that's a separate story but I can respect the opinion as it shows care for the country.
I think the point was very valid but the way it was being made may be a little unconventional (using the 'servant' term). I think we are all people and react or act differently. So I don't think that the post had anything serious about China or anyone else. I think it is a known fact that Pakistanis (And I admit, ALL ) respect China and care for her as a close friend. I don't think this post changes that.
Let's not drag our feet on something so minor. The topic was going great. Let's continue a healthy discussion and let people express their ideas or suggestions with care and respect to all (I might add)!!! Happy posts!

From my past experience here. There is indeed certain number of Indian imposting themselves as Pakistan flying Pakistan flag , claiming themselves living in Pakistan. But their out right motive is to ruin the friendship between Pakistan and China. Trying to sow discord. There is no doubt China aid to Pakistan in military or financial loan are important for the surivival of Pakistan. And there is no doubt that a weak Pakistan benefit India most. With a weak Pakistan, India can easily bully Pakistan in submission and forced Pakistan into unfavourable position whatever they deem.

This imposter will treat Chinese with contempt claiming Chinese are bad. Their technology backward. Claiming western stuff superior but every Pakistan knows that western countries is getting more and more critical of Pakistan and try to meddle into Pakistan governing. Dealing military deal with this countries is like playing with fire. As long as they deem you are not right. They have no obligation to honour any of their agreement with Pakistan.

And there is no denying the speedy advancement of China , technology or economic. China has already reach a world stage. This greatly put India at a massive advantage who in no way match China either in military or economic. Jealousy sow and underhand method is best use to trying to reduce China influence in world stage and friendship with her allies. In fact, the more closer Pakistan cling to China, the better she is. As what some member opposed.