JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Ping]

We have discussed it a 100 times before , the PAC wesbite has not been updated for many years it even does not contain info about DSI.

True. There is the latest info on JF-17 on Farnborough's board, and also on the 2008 IDEAS board. I have posted it here- http://www.defence.pk/forums/1105775-post468.html

 

[Sapper]

He is right. TWR of 1.1 is not accurate. There has to be a limit where one can lie. I have posted a response here if anyone is interested. http://www.defence.pk/forums/1105775-post468.html

Dear,

Do you know that the Wingspan and Weight specified in PAC official brochures and everywhere else includes the two wingtip WVRAAMs weighing around 120 Kg (PL-5C) each. Remove those from calculations and you will easily derive the TWR ratio of greater than unity.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Ping]

What? No one calculates empty weight with weapons. There is a reason why it is called "Empty Weight".

 

[Sapper]

What? No one calculates empty weight with weapons. There is a reason why it is called "Empty Weight".

Yes, that's stupid, I agree, but what can we do, PAC/CATIC chose to display figures including wingtip AAMs.

In case you think I am Lying, you can check on Wiki yourself.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Ping]

For one thing, Wiki should not be trusted. For the second thing, only the wing span is mentioned with wing tip missiles. Empty weight is left without any conditions implying it is the empty weight. Normal Loaded weight has conditions with wing tip missiles.

In any case, that wiki info is outdated. Check out the latest info from Farnborough 2010 and IDEAS 2008. I have mentioned it in the above link.

 

[Sapper]

For one thing, Wiki should not be trusted. For the second thing, only the wing span is mentioned with wing tip missiles. Empty weight is left without any conditions implying it is the empty weight. Normal Loaded weight has conditions with wing tip missiles.

In any case, that wiki info is outdated. Check out the latest info from Farnborough 2010 and IDEAS 2008. I have mentioned it in the above link.

Dear,

Go to this page,
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....
Zoom on the Brochure and check what is written against 9100 Kg ... (2 X Tip Missiles); 9,100Kg = 20,020Lb.

This is just to tell you that from the very beginning most of the JF17 revealed has been including the Wing-Tip Missiles. Keep in mind that PAC either purposely or Lethargically have not updated their data beyond PT-03 (Evident from Picture).

But I do agree, its still confusing and I might still turn out to be wrong, but please don't start contesting every small piece of information unless you are yourself 100% sure.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Ping]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. 9100kgs is not the empty weight. It is the loaded weight. I'm not saying the mentioned loaded weight is wrong. What you said is indeed true. But with the above loaded weight, the TWR of the JF-17 is only 0.91.
The only way JFT would get a TWR of 1.1 is when it is loaded with 6586kgs(empty weight) + 950kgs of fuel which makes a loaded weight of 7536kgs, and a thrust of 8300kgf.

 

[Arsalan]

heya bro, its Not 101. It is Jf-17 10-111 the first bird made by PAC.
rest of all three are having same camouflage.

i was talking about thsi one.
it seem to be the one with the pakistan and chines flag.
infact if you look closely one can see the white cresent on the green structure!!

regards!

 

[Sapper]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. 9100kgs is not the empty weight. It is the loaded weight. I'm not saying the mentioned loaded weight is wrong. What you said is indeed true. But with the above loaded weight, the TWR of the JF-17 is only 0.91.
The only way JFT would get a TWR of 1.1 is when it is loaded with 6586kgs(empty weight) + 950kgs of fuel which makes a loaded weight of 7536kgs, and a thrust of 8300kgf.

Dear TOGW (Take-Off-Gross-Weight) with Wingtip Missiles is 9,100 Kg which turns out to be 20,020 Lbs.

20,020 Lbs (Total) - 5130 Lbs (Fuel) - 200 Lbs of (Pilot+Gear) - 100 Lbs (Coolents+Lubricants) = 14590 Lbs = 6631 Kg

I Believe this 6630Kg figure (Extremely Close to 6586Kg you quoted) is with Wingtip missiles and their associated Electronic Linkages and Nitrogen Bottles.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Ping]

Dude, no one calculates Empty Weight with missiles.
And for your information, coolants and lubricants come with the empty weight. Also, pilot weight is not calculated with the loaded weight. Loaded weight is only fuel, or % of fuel + missiles.

 

[Ping]

Here you go:

Operating empty weight (OEW) is the basic weight of an aircraft including the crew, all fluids necessary for operation such as engine oil, engine coolant, water, unusable fuel and all operator items and equipment required for flight but excluding usable fuel and the payload. Also included are certain standard items, personnel, equipment, and supplies necessary for full operations.

Operating empty weight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The pilot and the coolants come with the empty weight. Loaded weight is only fuel + weapons/payload, or only fuel.

 

[Sapper]

Dude, no one calculates Empty Weight with missiles.
And for your information, coolants and lubricants come with the empty weight. Also, pilot weight is not calculated with the loaded weight. Loaded weight is only fuel, or % of fuel + missiles.

Dear,

I never used the Empty Weight, I derived it from TOGW (as per PAC site, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....) which is Take Off Gross Weight.

It Includes everything, including Pilot+Gear, All Coolants+Lubricants and as per site 2X Wingtip AAMs (usually PL-5Cs).

This was to mathematically show you that the "Empty Weight" referred to in PAC site and JF-17 Brochure in Farnborough could only have been true if included the Pilot and Wingtip AAMs.

Also, please remember that before Piloting a fighter, Pilots usually weigh themselves on weighing scales and then punch in their info using mission cartrages in All FBW (Fly By Wire) fighters so that the FLCC (Flight Control Computer) can adjust trims angles properly. Weight of Each Weapon and its Launcher is also Added.

PS: Fighting with you over this confirms everyone's assumption that an Indian Fan is impossible to convince. I never believed this to be true as a general rule. I always believed we failed to present the correct facts in correct manner. Please don't make me re-think my beliefs.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Sapper]

Here you go:

Operating empty weight (OEW) is the basic weight of an aircraft including the crew, all fluids necessary for operation such as engine oil, engine coolant, water, unusable fuel and all operator items and equipment required for flight but excluding usable fuel and the payload. Also included are certain standard items, personnel, equipment, and supplies necessary for full operations.

Operating empty weight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The pilot and the coolants come with the empty weight. Loaded weight is only fuel + weapons/payload, or only fuel.

After Lecturing me not to use Wikipedia as source, you are citing Wiki.
Some standards you got brother.

Dear just tell me ...
At Take Off, a plane weighed at 20,020 pounds, with Pilot, Wingtip AAMs, and all the Coolants.
Minus the Fuel it weighed 14, 890 Lbs.
Minus Pilot it weighed 14,690 Lbs.
Where did the 250Kg, 550 Lb Missiles go ??

I am only saying that Farnborogh Poster Cited 14,520 Lbs figure Might be including Wingtip AAMs as they did with Wingspan, but left out "including tip missiles" due to lack of space. It is simple out of my mathematical brilliance to prove otherwise.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Ping]

^ My god. What is wrong with people nowadays. People are calculating Empty weight with missiles. The knowledge in this place is unbelievable.

Read the post above you for goodness sake.

 

[Ping]

Dude Wiki is only unreliable when the info isn't updated, or when the facts deals with touchy issues. This is the standard definition since a long time.

Whatever, here you go:
Operational Weight Empty: The basic empty weight of the airplane plus the weight of the pilot. It excludes payload and usable fuel.

weight and balance of aircraft