JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 1]

[muse]

Pakistan developed K8 with China, yet it operates very few of them - PAF killed K8 for Pakistan, because they wanted a "Western" engine for that as well.

Anyway, lets focus on capacity building and not any western off the shelf anything - lets focus on building the academic and technical infrastructure and man power necessary to absorb any ToT - then it will be a question of cost only.

Pakistan cannot afford to lose it's focus, the F16 business was just plain tragic - yes, it makes sense in that there will be hundredsof these ships on the market as F35 transitions in and F16 out - however; so long as Pakistan are who they are and the US is who and what it is, there can be and will not be any accomodation on the strategic security level, certainly not to Pakistan's satisfaction and neither to the US - Pakistan and US is just a bad deal, bad for Pakistan and bad for US - better for Pakistan to focus on it's priorities and maintain healthy commercial and diplomatic ties with US - the key would remain a dedicated focus on strategic ties with china and those who can accomodate Pakistan.

 

[fatman17]

^^^valuable comments from our forum members on the pro's and con's of buying western equipment and not relying soley on chinese or indigeneous capacity building.

for the interim period 5-10 yrs we have no choice but to continue with the current state of procurement even though i feel by diversifying our sources we are going to be in a better non-sanction environment. the french are businessmen they are not only looking at the JF-17 radar, avionics and missile contract for pakistan but beyond it to the very vast potential of JF-17 (FC-1) sales to the 3rd world airforces and the JF-17 in PAF service will be the benchmark for evaluation. success of the JF-17 thus is very critical and IMO the PAF is ensuring it gets the bang for the bucks being invested.

100% chinese reliance would be ok as the chinese quality improves a la J-10. the chinese are atleast 10 years behind the west in advanced electronics / avionics and powerplant development but they are doing a great job of catching up. (as muse rightly mentioned this is an area where we need to invest more - capacity building). we forget that PAF is the only airforce in the world which is actually designing and developing fighter jets as per their needs. progress and experience on the JF-17 will develop this expertise and we need to involve the private sector to actively participate in this program. it should not be a AMF-Kamra project exclusively. we are also assembling the Grifo radar under licence at Kamra.

as far as the F-16 program goes a lot of investment has been made into this program and therefore abandoning this program at this stage is not likely.

the french have not created any hurdles for us in our procurement of used mirages from australia, lebanon, libya as well as the french air force.

 

[IceCold]

I think you will find that the French are a lot more accomodating than the rest of the world. PAF has had good working relations with them and are ho-ping that these will continue. Plus if the engines that the russians have supplied are not good qualitatively, how is embarking on a new engine, to be designed , going to make things better.Plus the time factor and Russian willingness also has to be taken nto account. If you remember there have been news in the past about Indians being unhappy at the quality of engines provided in their MKIs. So all in all your choice boils down to either EU or China. If the chinese engine has qualitative issues, then your options become limited.
Araz

Well sir while i have no disagrement over what you have said, however a few concerns are laid. While i would agree that french as compared to anyother western counterpart have always been reliable, one reason i have always be saying for PN to go for the Marlin deal over the U-214. But when it comes to JF-17, its something developed between China and Pakistan and therefore an engine of domestic origin should be a better choice completely eliminating any chance of sactions even by the french. Remember France hold a few of our upgraded mirages at one time only to be delivered latter. One would not like to get stuck in time again.
As for the RD-93 well the only issue i see is the smoke of perhaps as mentioned in Janas post its lower life span, both issues are not something which couldnt be resolved however the key to it is that we get directly involved in negotiations. Also Russian too realize the vast potential that lies within the JF-17 as its directly competing with their Migs so i dont think they will fell short just to please India who already is in the lap of Uncle SAM. There are no real friendships, just real interests.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

i dont know why so many members are freaking out from "western engine" as if we are not getting radars, computers etc... if PAF decides 21-22,000 LB class engine for 200+ thunders then i think ToT will be procured.... and again PAF will be looking for French market.. or perhaps.. Mirage-2000 modified engine could be offered.. m-53?

 

[IceCold]

i dont know why so many members are freaking out from "western engine" as if we are not getting radars, computers etc... if PAF decides 21-22,000 LB class engine for 200+ thunders then i think ToT will be procured.... and again PAF will be looking for French market.. or perhaps.. Mirage-2000 modified engine could be offered.. m-53?

pakistan is in no position to handle a TOT to completely manufacture an engine. Just to over haul it or assemble it in Pakistan does not mean that we are not prone to sanctions because parts will still be coming from the required country.Think

 

[Myth_buster_1]

pakistan is in no position to handle a TOT to completely manufacture an engine. Just to over haul it or assemble it in Pakistan does not mean that we are not prone to sanctions because parts will still be coming from the required country.

PAF Air staff know better...200-250 is a big number and something more then just transfer of engine will come for ensuring that in war time scenario PAF assets will survive from possible sanctions.... and PAkistan is no where near to handle ToT of jet engine? dont know about that but its not that we are trying to reverse engineer a freakin PW F135... the manufacturing will be monitored just like TAI will be assisting PAC for F-16 MLU... or if all comes to spare parts... i am sure pakistan is capable to manufacture them with ToT..

Think

 

[Munir]

RD93

Length: 4,230 mm (166.54 in)
Maximum diameter: 1,040 mm (40.94 in)
Weight, Dry: 1,055 kg (2,326 lb)
Complete power plant: 1,217 kg (2,683 lb)
Specific Fuel Consumption
Maximum augmented: 52.40 mg/Ns (1.85 lb/h/lb st)
Maximum dry, S/L: 21.8 mg/Ns (0.77 lb/h/lb st)
Full augmented power (H=0, M=0, Sin=1):
thrust, kgf 8300
Max. non-afterburning power (H=0, M=0, Sin=1):
thrust, kgf 5040

Let me see M-53 info

Diameter 800 mm
Length 5070 mm
Thrust non afterburning 6400
Thrust full afterburning 9,707 Kg (21,400 lb)
Weight, Dry: 1,515 kg
fuel consumption dry 0.90 lb

TOT? I do not think so... Unless we go far beyond 500 engines.. Otherwise I would just buy the engines and produce spare parts...

 

[IceCold]

PAF Air staff know better...200-250 is a big number and something more then just transfer of engine will come for ensuring that in war time scenario PAF assets will survive from possible sanctions.... and PAkistan is no where near to handle ToT of jet engine? dont know about that but its not that we are trying to reverse engineer a freakin PW F135... the manufacturing will be monitored just like TAI will be assisting PAC for F-16 MLU... or if all comes to spare parts... i am sure pakistan is capable to manufacture them with ToT..

Thats just a speculation on your part. Till now how many engines have been manufactured in Pakistan? none actually. Even the engine for a Toyota Corolla in Pakistan isnt 100% made in pakistan, crutial components still come from abroad. Here we are talking about a jet engine. Now when i say that western engine is a bad idea that does not mean w.r.t to the engine itself, infact if every thing goes smoothly, there is nothing better then having a reliable western engine in a single engine jet, but there is a big IF involved in it and usually our honeymoon with the west doesnt last that long.

 

[Munir]

I have to agree with Ice on this. You do need lots of investment (which we no longer can afford) or exports (which I doubt). Pakistan produces small parts but we cannot expect to produce highly complex engine parts just we need some few hundreds...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

how ever.. western engine for thunder is not a bad idea as long as it does not come with any strings attached.. ACM did not just bakwas for the possible induction of western engine their may be something more we dont know yet..

 

[IceCold]

how ever.. western engine for thunder is not a bad idea as long as it does not come with any strings attached.. ACM did not just bakwas for the possible induction of western engine their may be something more we dont know yet..

Dude chill! we are just discussing, there is no point in getting hyper over nothing and using abusive language. ACM surely knows about what hes talking but then again we are known to fall for short gains. Dont forget that.

 

[Munir]

I agree where there is smoke there will be fire... But still, we heard years ago about IFR and yet we ju ot the final go... JF17 production is done deal till 2010 (42 pieces) but there is a lot of rom for a few alternative engines. JF17 is designed to have several engines.

 

[shehbazi2001]

In selecting an engine, the prime consideration is its thrust rating. Thrust is the force that drives the aircraft through the air.

But aircraft performance also depends upon weight and an engine also adds weight to the aircraft. We want more thrust and less weight. For this purpose we need to see the thrust to weight ratio of the engine alongwith pure thrust figure.

A higher T/W ratio engine is what is desired. An engine with higher T/W ratio in turn gives higher T/W ratio to aircraft. Aircraft T/W ratio of 1 or more than 1 is desired for air combat fighter. Mostly when a fighter jet has a T/W ratio of 1 or 1.2, its engine has T/W ratio of 7 to 9.

Mostly, new engines are developped for new aircrafts to give them the desired T/W ratio. But its not always necessary eg Gripen.

While selecting engine for JF-17, we must keep in mind that it should add less weight so that aircraft has a T/W superior to 1 and has a thrust rating of more than 20,000lb.

After the aforementioned primary considerations from performance point of view, then comes the considerations of engine volume. Internal aircraft volume is important for stocking fuel.

A smaller-sized engine in turn occupies less volume and leaves space for other things. A good example is engine of Tornado, RB-199 which occupies a small volume and leaves room for fuel.

For volume, we need to look at the diameter and length of the engine. Roughly, volume is X-sectional area multiplied by length, area calulated simply from diameter.

Then we have the criteria like specific fuel consumption, handling qualities and reliability.

 

[araz]

Well sir while i have no disagrement over what you have said, however a few concerns are laid. While i would agree that french as compared to anyother western counterpart have always been reliable, one reason i have always be saying for PN to go for the Marlin deal over the U-214. But when it comes to JF-17, its something developed between China and Pakistan and therefore an engine of domestic origin should be a better choice completely eliminating any chance of sactions even by the french. Remember France hold a few of our upgraded mirages at one time only to be delivered latter. One would not like to get stuck in time again.
As for the RD-93 well the only issue i see is the smoke of perhaps as mentioned in Janas post its lower life span, both issues are not something which couldnt be resolved however the key to it is that we get directly involved in negotiations. Also Russian too realize the vast potential that lies within the JF-17 as its directly competing with their Migs so i dont think they will fell short just to please India who already is in the lap of Uncle SAM. There are no real friendships, just real interests.

Ice
My friend I hear what you are saying and agree with you. But notice 2 things.
ACM said PAF is not happy with RD93. NOw one of the reasons he quoted was engine life. There may be other factors. Secondly you are insistent on PAF negotiating directly with the russians. What if they are not talking. They have business interests in India whom they are fleecing at the moment by renegotiating their contracts. Is that not another quagmire to go into?
Thirdly the quality of Russian engines is still not upto the mark. India is having problems with MKI due to its engines as well as Mig 29s.
The chinese engine was what we were loooking at. If it is not upto the mark it could take another 5-6 yrs to perfect. What do we do in the interim.
I think it is in view of these problems that ACM has thought along the lines of a french engine. At the moment it is the least problematic solution.
Another thing to consider is if Russkies want to impose restrictions on the sale of thunder to third party, our export potential goes down the drain.
I think the decisaion is wise and we should have faith inthe ACM and the PAF.
Araz

 

[BATMAN]

Ice
My friend I hear what you are saying and agree with you. But notice 2 things.
ACM said PAF is not happy with RD93. NOw one of the reasons he quoted was engine life. There may be other factors. Secondly you are insistent on PAF negotiating directly with the russians. What if they are not talking. They have business interests in India whom they are fleecing at the moment by renegotiating their contracts. Is that not another quagmire to go into?
Thirdly the quality of Russian engines is still not upto the mark. India is having problems with MKI due to its engines as well as Mig 29s.
The chinese engine was what we were loooking at. If it is not upto the mark it could take another 5-6 yrs to perfect. What do we do in the interim.
I think it is in view of these problems that ACM has thought along the lines of a french engine. At the moment it is the least problematic solution.
Another thing to consider is if Russkies want to impose restrictions on the sale of thunder to third party, our export potential goes down the drain.
I think the decisaion is wise and we should have faith inthe ACM and the PAF.
Araz

Araz, it is known that the quality problems which india faced in Russian equipment, specifically in engines of mig-29 were due to poor maintenance reasons. Germans were also using mig-29 but they managed to double the life span of engine as compare to india.
Still RD-93 has less life span as compare to western counterparts but that does not sacrifice performance. Chinese engine is rated even better.
Western engines have higher life span mainly due to their relatively advance know how of metallurgy.
However knowledge is spreading fast and as we say necessity is mother of invention. I expect to see improvement curve more steep in case of China, Pakistan and Russia as compare to west or US.
Coming to the subject of absorbing ToT, which is quite ambiguous term and can have different meaning from different perspective. We can very well assemble French engine which is more than enough but I would be more inclined to invest in China because this will also take away investment from west. So investing in China has kind a double effect.
Pakistan is in win win situation in both cases. Present regime will be more inclined towards French procurements rather than Chinese.
BTW, Why Russia is re-negotiating because USD has depreciated and metal prices rose 300% percent. This is called force majeure. No fault of Russians.