JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 1]

[mxiong]

Good news, Is WP-13 different than WS-13?

My mistake. It should be WS-13. Thanks for noticing the error.

 

[IceCold]

Well i was reading the differences between the two engines and one thing that i would like to point out is that though WS-13 has more thrust as compared to the RD-93, its also heavier then the RD=93. So to what extent will this weight difference effect the over all capability of the JF-17 and at a time when PAF is already trying to increase the payload of the jet by increasing the number of hard points ( from 7 to 9 )? As for now although there is still some sort of smoke issue related to the RD-93, but otherwise the pilots are very much impressed by the response time the engine provides. Is there a chance that pakistan might not go for the WS-13 rather ask the russians to build rather more enhanced version of the RD-93? There was some rumour about the RD-93b.

 

[fatman17]

19-Feb-2008 12:02 EST

Back in January, DID wrote:

“The military world has no shortage of irony. The defense industry has its moments too, as Pakistan just discovered. An aircraft whose development was driven by military sanctions from the US and Europe is now derailed by military sanctions. This leaves the Pakistani Air Force dependent on an alternative from… America. Meanwhile, the Chinese are left with no export launch customer for a plane they may now have to reluctantly buy themselves, instead of the favoured and more capable J-10. Somewhere in Delhi, champagne is pouring – but first, a bit of background.”

The arms market also features no shortage of change, and the agreement India thought it had, was reversed by Russian autocrat Vladimir Putin…

The JF-17/FC-1 is a sub-$20 million fighter designed as a co-operative venture between Pakistan and China to replace F-7P (MiG-21+) and Mirage 3/5 aircraft in Pakistan’s fleet. China also has options to produce them, but has made no firm decisions and seems unenthusiastic. It’s a comparable peer for India’s still-under-development LCA Tejas, Taiwan’s ****-1 Ching Kuo fighters, and South Korea’s T/A-50 Golden Eagle supersonic trainer & light fighter.

Sino Defense reminds us that the JF-17/FC-1 ‘Xiaolong’ has a long history. The site recalls that China signed a $550 million agreement with Grumman in 1986 to modernise its J-7 fighter (MiG-21 copy) under the “Super-7” upgrade project, with US and British firms competing to provide the engine and avionics. The project was canceled after the Tienanmen Square massacre, but Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation managed to continue the programme with its own resources, and the project was re-branded as FC-1 (Fighter China-1). US sanctions related to Pakistan’s nuclear program and Chinese-Pakistani use of ballistic missile components led Pakistan to seek helps from its Chinese ally. A joint development and production agreement was signed in June 1999, with China Aviation Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) and Pakistan each contributing 50% of the estimated $150 million development costs.

Stuck in Sichuan: The Saga

The Pakistan Government had hoped to sign a deal to acquire 150 JF-17/FC-1 fighters in 2007, with 8 aircraft in service by year’s end. China had reportedly even bought 100 Klimov RD-93 engines from Russia for installing on JF-17s, with an option to contract for another 400 engines.

In January 2007, however, Forecast International reported that Russia had just refused permission for the transfer of its RD-93 engines, derived from the RD-33 that equips the MiG-29. According to FI the decision came only a few days after a visit to India by Russia’s Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov, during which a number of joint defense projects were discussed and agreements were signed. These include the MRTA transport aircraft, and reportedly a “5th generation fighter” project, even as the MiG-29OVT/MiG-35 is touted as the likely winner of the multi-billion MRCA fighter contract.

Coincidence? Didn’t look like it. Replacement with another engine? Unless it’s a very close copy, that requires re-work of the entire fighter design and takes years. Just ask the Chinese J-10 project team.

As it turned out, however, that wasn’t necessary. Russia authorized re-export of the RD-93 engines, in an announcement that caught even India’s diplomats by surprise.

Updates and Key Events

Jan 22/08: According to India Defence, Pakistan’s national TV reports that it has begun in-country manufacturing of the JF-17 fighter. About half of the on-board equipment and avionics will be manufactured in Kamra, Pakistan, with the rest coming from China.

PakAF Chief of Air Staff Ahmed reportedly committed to 15 aircraft built in 2008 and 20 in 2009, with the goal of building 25-30 per year.

Nov 13/07: Jane’s Defense Weekly quotes Pakistani Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed as saying that the Pakistan Air Force will have an operational capability with JF-17 Thunder light fighter aircraft by the end of 2008, and expects to have its first 8 aircraft under a “small batch order” within the next few months.

“Speaking to Jane’s at the Dubai Air Show on 12 November, ACM Ahmed dismissed concerns over the Russian RD-93 engine that powers the joint Sino-Pakistan aircraft as “an issue created from here and there.”

April 26/07: India may need to hold that champagne, in the wake of recent reports. India Defence relays a report from the Russian newspaper Kommersant, which said that Vladimir Putin himself had personally supervised and signed a “Sino-Russian Fighter Assembly Agreement” which included joint assembly of JF-17 fighter aircraft with RD-93 engines, and their supply to third countries. Kommersant added that:

“This permission will enable the supply of 150 Chinese JF-17 fighter aircrafts to Pakistan, and help implement the contract for the supply of Russian engines worth USD 238 million.”

Kommersant added that “the permission does not imply Pakistan’s inclusion in the list of countries with which Russia has direct military-technical cooperation.” The question is whether Russian military-technical cooperation would be required under the Sino-Russian agreement. Meanwhile, the Indians appear to have been blindsided. The Press Counsellor of the Indian Embassy in Moscow Ramesh Chandra told Kommersant that “the Embassy was not aware” of the permission for re-export. See India Defence article.

March 2007: China delivers a pair of JF-17 fighters equipped with Russian-made RD-93 engines to Pakistan, prompting Indian protests that claim a violation of the end-user agreement between Russia and China.

 

[BATMAN]

JF-17 Part I

JF-17 Part 2

JF-17 vs MKI

 

[solid snake]

^^ If we can make that many sales of the Thunder as listed at the first link, that would make me a very happy panda. Pakistan will gain some major revenue if we are able to sell to so many countries in such large numbers. Iran, North Korea, Lebanon, Argentina are all realistic potential buyers. We could use the money to enhance the capabilites of the future variants of the Thunder, and we can capture the international market before the Tejas is even in service. Woot!

 

[Owais]

But JF-17 needs a lot of time & improvement in order to have more buyers. may be its improved version with (TVC & Lo properties) would make it better than current blk 52 F-16s

 

[fatman17]

^^ If we can make that many sales of the Thunder as listed at the first link, that would make me a very happy panda. Pakistan will gain some major revenue if we are able to sell to so many countries in such large numbers. Iran, North Korea, Lebanon, Argentina are all realistic potential buyers. We could use the money to enhance the capabilites of the future variants of the Thunder, and we can capture the international market before the Tejas is even in service. Woot!

solid snake - sales or exports of the JF-17 (FC-1) will be done by China. Pakistan will get a ratio of the sales proceeds based on our investment in this project.

 

[Real LAVi]

JF-17 and at a time when PAF is already trying to increase the payload of the jet by increasing the number of hard points ( from 7 to 9 )? As for now although there is still some sort of smoke issue related to the RD-93, but otherwise the pilots are very much impressed by the response time the engine provides. Is there a chance that pakistan might not go for the WS-13 rather ask the russians to build rather more enhanced version of the RD-93? There was some rumour about the RD-93b.

I prefer to use Russian enhanced version rather than to use Chinese...if there would not be a political issue b/w the two countries. The Russian engine will be the best. Russia already has offered MiG-35 to India with highly improved engine, which is totally smokeless, increased thrust and with totally FBW control, even fuel consumption rate also made better. In my view JF-17 power plant is the cure issue.

If PAF is looking to increase hardpoint from 7 to 9, means some more changes would require in acronymic structures such as wider fuselage and wing span...(Resultant increase the drag and need more power full engine, PAF should look this matter very seriously…..) If you know Sweden is going to upgrade its existed Gripen C/D to E/F version.. and beside the other enhancement , they are also going for increasing the hardpoint - which is only possible to house additional hardpoints at round the fuselage. Sweden does not want to invest to redesign the whole Gripen. PAF should look the whole process very closely.

 

[gpit]

^^ If we can make that many sales of the Thunder as listed at the first link, that would make me a very happy panda. Pakistan will gain some major revenue if we are able to sell to so many countries in such large numbers. Iran, North Korea, Lebanon, Argentina are all realistic potential buyers. We could use the money to enhance the capabilites of the future variants of the Thunder, and we can capture the international market before the Tejas is even in service. Woot!

Wondering why Cuba is not on the list of buyers.

Doing business with NK is more precarious now than ever, ... wondering if China/Pakistan will get paid or get paid fully.

 

[khanz]

how many jf-17s has pakistan got so far ?

 

[blain2]

how many jf-17s has pakistan got so far ?

I believe 8 are in Pakistan right now.

 

[Neo]

A Boost for the PAF and French Relevancy​

Pakistan has been working hard to find a suitable, non-Chinese radar and missile package for its newly completed JF-17 Thunder fighter jet, co-produced with China. In August of last year, my sources had reported that the French were proving to be troublesome in negotiations and that South Africa was emerging as a likely supplier for a package. Last week however, the French government finally authorized its defense industry to sell the Thales RC-400 radar and MBDA’s Mica Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (MRAAM) to Pakistan

The French change of heart can likely be attributed to the new Sarkozy government in Paris and a recent Pakistani decision to purchase German submarines over French ones. Whatever the reason, this authorization could result in a significant boost for both the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and France’s market position in Pakistan.

A Lethal Combination

By allowing Thales and MDBA to compete in Pakistan’s open tender for a radar/missile package for the JF-17, the French have significantly raised the bar for the plane as well as for competitor bids.

The RC-400 is an airborne radar that can detect, track, and fire upon multiple targets at long ranges simultaneously. It employs the use of electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM - essentially, anti-jamming) and other advanced features such as SAR. The radar is more capable than the standard Chinese-made avionics that will be equipping the first production batch of JF-17’s.

The Mica is a medium range missile that has a range of approximately 60 km (~ 40 miles) meaning it’s capable of engaging targets beyond visual range (BVR). It includes advanced features such as thrust vectoring (TVC) allowing it to make drastic changes in direction at immense speeds.

To some of you, this may just be a long list of acronyms and technical jargon. In sum, it essentially translates into the Thunder becoming a true multi-role fighter with the capability to target land, air and sea targets in all conditions, day or night, at stand-off ranges.

It also forces other major suppliers who are or are considering participation in the open tender - such as Raytheon (US), Denel (South Africa), and FIAR (Italy) - to provide comparable packages at competitive prices. This will help Pakistan as it engages in commercial negotiations over the cost of a French package.

France’s Foothold

France and Pakistan have historically had very strong military ties. France has often supplied Pakistan with advanced weaponry when others wouldn’t. Today, Pakistan operates the largest fleet of French-made Mirage fighter aircraft outside of France, and to date, all of Pakistan’s submarines have been of French origin.

Recently however, defense ties between the two have been strained. Starting in 1998, with Pakistan’s nuclear tests, the French briefly withheld delivery of the first of three advanced Agosta 90B submarines Pakistan had purchased under transfer of technology (ToT) terms. Shortly thereafter, 11 French engineers working on the remaining Agosta’s were killed in a bombing of the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi, putting the program’s future in doubt for a short while.

After 9/11, Pakistan once again began relying heavily on US supplied weaponry while the French attempted to woo the Indians in the hopes of scoring large deals. In the process, the French alienated Pakistan and lost the loyalty of a longtime buyer. This was exhibited this past September when Pakistan opted to purchase German-made U-214 submarines over the French Marlin, despite France having authorized its sale.

By granting Pakistan access to an advanced radar and MRAAM, France is trying to regain lost footing in the Pakistani market. Ever the astute business people, the French are also undoubtedly eyeing the JF-17’s export potential, though many of the plane’s export targets will likely opt for an all-Chinese package.

Caveat Emptor

The French have a propensity to sell weaponry to Pakistan and then sell similar or better weapons to India (or vice versa), fuelling the existing arms races and their revenues. The most recent example of which was when after having agreed to supply Pakistan with the Agosta 90B submarine, they sold the newer Scorpene submarine to India. The very same could happen with the RC-400 radar and Mica MRAAM if a deal comes to fruition.

However, this sort of risk is inherent in any defense deal when there are two rivals engaged in an arms race. It doesn’t change the fact that even at a premium this package is far and away Pakistan’s best available option for the JF-17.

The Big Picture

The JF-17 is meant to be Pakistan’s unsanctionable, low-cost mainstay fighter, replacing aging Mirages and F-7’s (Chinese MiG-21’s) that constitute the bulk of the PAF fleet. With production expected to total 250, the JF-17 will form the medium component of the PAF’s mix of medium and high technology aircraft; the high component formed by the F-16 and the Chinese J-10 (Pakistani designation: FC-20).

The JF-17 will mark a quantum leap for the PAF in light of the aircraft it will be replacing. With the exception of a handful of upgraded Mirages, none of the planes in Pakistan’s current fleet have BVR capability; not even US-supplied F-16’s which are awaiting upgrade. The lack of BVR capability places Pakistan at a severe disadvantage vis-à-vis India whose air force operates multiple aircraft types that are BVR capable.

This will all change with the JF-17 which will have BVR capability and many other features currently unavailable on Pakistan’s Mirages and F-7’s. Not including its flight range and payload, the JF-17 is considered to be on par with if not superior in some aspects (e.g. avionics, thrust-to-weight ratio, etc.) to earlier versions of the F-16. In essence, the PAF will be replacing the bulk of its entire fleet with F-16-like planes, all equipped with BVR.

The JF-17’s induction, coupled with the purchase of brand new F-16’s and force multipliers such as Swedish and American Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) systems, marks a return to quality for the PAF, which in recent years had begun to rely on quantity having been crippled by sanctions. Though adopting all these new systems and developing new tactics will take time, it will give the PAF the confidence it needs to take on a much larger Indian Air Force (IAF).

For the global community, a confident and capable conventional military in Pakistan is vital - it raises Pakistan’s threshold for the use of nuclear weapons if ever a conflict were to break out between India and Pakistan.

Let’s hope we never have to test that threshold.

A Boost for the PAF and French Relevancy | The Insider Brief

 

[fatman17]

Neo-a very informative assessment of the JF-17 capabilities and impact.

 

[Owais]

nice article but in my Opinion, MICA is a bit short ranged as compared to R-77 or AIM 120 C5 so JF-17 should go for another MRAAM having range of >75km.

 

[Joodi]

nice article but in my Opinion, MICA is a bit short ranged as compared to R-77 or AIM 120 C5 so JF-17 should go for another MRAAM having range of >75km.

No doubt MICA is a very potent AAM but it will not be the used as the main "primary" BVR-AAM for Jf-17, chinese BVR-AAM 'SD-10' will be the primary BVR missile for JF-17 having a range greater than MICA.

MICA will be used along with chinese SD-10 and "T-Darter BVR-AAM" which is the another option underconsideration.

It is common practise now a days to eqipment the fighter aircraft with BVR-AAM of different ranges, allowing the pilot to use the appropiate BVR-AAM keeping in view the combat scenerio.