JF 17 is The Wrong Omnirole Aircraft For PAKISTAN

[sathya]

Hi,

I can say only one thing for you as an Indian. Please keep you rants and advice to yourself.

Our dealing with China is far more greater than what a normal Indian can understand !

Its a win-win situation but only as an Indian you are too blinded by the hatred to see that

Hope it is so..

 

[salarsikander]

Hope it so..

Hi,

you can count on that, thats why you top govt intelligence official said, we will use warhead to disrupt cpec if we have to

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

As usual---I have stuck my head up to my neck in the hornets nest----is that anything new---.

I understand that the JF 17 is the pet project of almost many of you guys---but this aircraft simply does not match the intensity of threat being faced as a frontline fighter aircraft.

Now---as a complimentary and associate aircraft----it is a great asset---and in numbers of around 300---350 it will provide massive support and compliment to the main strike force.

The J 31 is too far away----and there is a big gap between what we have on our top tier as compared to the enemy's top tier.

There are no ifs and buts about it that Pakistan needs the heavies----not too many of them----but at least 2 sqdrn's for its naval strike missions and something for air superiority.

What does a JF 17 carry---a chicken sh-it two anti ship missiles----we need something that can carry 8 to ten of them ---.

We are facing an enemy two to three times our size---and all we have is daggers against their sword.

this is exactly the thought process of IAF now regarding LCA. They have the money, they have a 7X times larger country yet ground reality is forcing them to go for LCA which is even short legged than thunder with a country who is facing two fronts with 7X times area

the questions is do we want to end up like the soviet union, she made war machines for a war that never happened!

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

I was expecting a bit more detailed response from you taking account into all perspective as you usually do.

Allow me to give you direction on which i was expecting your response and then you can take it from there.

I was saying if the chinese CBG or any other naval platforms comes, will it bring an economic activity to the area ? will it result in more co operation among both navy? or increased exchanges or perhaps even more bold move by joint patrolling?

Overall, How would you best describe the development along the lines of dynamics I have mentioned

Joint patrolling will always happen along with exercises. The Chinese are already a part of the international Task Force I believe for piracy control and all. So that will probably have more Chinese involvement? I am not sure, this is a too forward looking scenario.

There won't a any "significant" economic activity. I guess the local restaurants and shopping might get busy due to a visiting Navy that stops over for a day. But that's it. Getting gas tanks and food supplies filled isn't that big of an economic impact. The real impact would be providing for 350 million Chinese consumers through CPEC, both inbound and outbound shipping of consumer products, oil, gas, minerals and all. This will change the Pakistani landscape or good and once and for all. The next 30-40 years are going to bring about significant economic development to Pakistan.

which superior planes of IAF???, the un updated mirages, the older mig29, the mig21, the mig 27, the jaugers, the LCA, ???

the only ones left that is superior to jf-17 is the is their ace aircraft the su 30
and A BIG MAY BE RAFALE and arguably /may be the newest mig29

That's not true, their Mirages are at 05 standard, like the -16 block 52, its a different jet from an avionics standpoint. Still slightly inferior to the -16 block 52 though. A good comparison will be with Pakistan's MLU'd -16's at the block 40 level.

Their Mig-29's have been heavily upgraded too. So don't think the IAF isn't potent, its just that its not going to help them against Pakistan for various reasons, one of them being the distance. One line separating the two, means if the PAF positions the -16's and the JFT's closer to the border, it kills the "bigger radar" advantage of the SU's and the Migs. Now, you are pretty much fighting on SAME terms in terms of the BVR. WVR, JFT can tackle everything but the SU-30's and Rafales, for that you use -16 or acquire in the future, J-11D or FC-20 in numbers.

 

[majid mehmood]

Joint patrolling will always happen along with exercises. The Chinese are already a part of the international Task Force I believe for piracy control and all. So that will probably have more Chinese involvement? I am not sure, this is a too forward looking scenario.

There won't a any "significant" economic activity. I guess the local restaurants and shopping might get busy due to a visiting Navy that stops over for a day. But that's it. Getting gas tanks and food supplies filled isn't that big of an economic impact. The real impact would be providing for 350 million Chinese consumers through CPEC, both inbound and outbound shipping of consumer products, oil, gas, minerals and all. This will change the Pakistani landscape or good and once and for all. The next 30-40 years are going to bring about significant economic development to Pakistan.



That's not true, their Mirages are at 05 standard, like the -16 block 52, its a different jet from an avionics standpoint. Still slightly inferior to the -16 block 52 though. A good comparison will be with Pakistan's MLU'd -16's at the block 40 level.

Their Mig-29's have been heavily upgraded too. So don't think the IAF isn't potent, its just that its not going to help them against Pakistan for various reasons, one of them being the distance. One line separating the two, means if the PAF positions the -16's and the JFT's closer to the border, it kills the "bigger radar" advantage of the SU's and the Migs. Now, you are pretty much fighting on SAME terms in terms of the BVR. WVR, JFT can tackle everything but the SU-30's and Rafales, for that you use -16 or acquire in the future, J-11D or FC-20 in numbers.

mmrca tender is dead no rafle is coming for india

 

[salarsikander]

they quoted so to u keep u busy ..if it is not understandable to you its not my probs..i already said the deal is not better than your jf-17..if u don't understand i have no guts to make u understand about it..why jf-17 rejected by Argentina is straight.. is that what they want they don't get..and u make whole issue of vedic and mmcra planes......sometimes straight forward do it right .....end of conversation...what we wanted in mmcra we don't get..its off..thats why...now answer question again

Hi,

Speak english not Gibberish !

You can barely speak speak english, and on top of that you are hell bent on making fool of yourself

Looked like i was talking to 10 years old kid.

You started to show off your childish behaviour, by suggesting us to buy f-22 and then you went on to say jf-17 is better than f-22 naaaaa ( typical Indian accent) I don't know what Naaaaaa means.

My post was merely reflection of your stupidity, but with limited mental capacity, it's beyond your comprehension ability to understand what i said.

Good day, no hard feeling son

 

[majid mehmood]

the su 30 mki has a rcs of 20m2 (fully loaded)
f16 block 52 rcs of 2m2 (fully loaded)
bar range at 3m2 is 135km so will be around 115-120km to detect f16
apg 68 range at 5m2 is 105km so will be around 170 -190km

 

[volatile]

By working with Chinese does not mean PAF has changed her approach or doctrine that is based on Western style of warfare. While Chinese may not physically see what is in Blk-52, Pakistani pilots are their eyes and ears and they continuously get useful feedback on improving their systems, particularly those that are made jointly and for PAF. Secondly, it is always good to let the world recognize your technology and capabilities as inferior for war is all about surprises.

So do we have replacement for Link 16 speakable to all platforms

 

[Chanakyaa]

Hi,
I can say only one thing for you as an Indian. Please keep you rants and advice to yourself.
Our dealing with China is far more greater than what a normal Indian can understand !
Its a win-win situation but only as an Indian you are too blinded by the hatred to see that

You wont agree, but feelenig apart, What he stated is True. He is talking about Trade Imbalanace.
India is already facing the Trade Inbalance. Tomorrow you will face it, as the volume od trade grows.

See, the problem is not that can be solved eaisiliy, indians are finding it hard ( in case of chinese ) , but atleast we do accept it as a problem.

This was identified in case of Russia and Iran as well and methods have been used to decrease the Trade Imbalance.

 

[Viper0011.]

they quoted so to u keep u busy ..if it is not understandable to you its not my probs..i already said the deal is not better than your jf-17..if u don't understand i have no guts to make u understand about it..why jf-17 rejected by Argentina is straight.. is that what they want they don't get..and u make whole issue of vedic and mmcra planes......sometimes straight forward do it right .....end of conversation...what we wanted in mmcra we don't get..its off..thats why...now answer question again

Your logic is flawed and when it comes to India and Pakistan, you guys act very biased. You should talk to the Argentinian defense ministry and find out why they "rejected" it. Quote all the reasons and then a debate can take place.

Otherwise rejecting a BMW over My Mercedes wasn't because BMW doesn't offer everything, it was simply a personal preference as Mercedes has a better executive sedan performance and BMW is more sportier. Again, the fact says I am wrong, but I am making a decision on what my preferences are, and what package I get, like Mercedes may be giving me 0% financing, while BMW would have a 5% loan. So explain all reasons as to why the JFT was rejected that just general high level statements.

Capability wise, the JFT was a light combat plan with "medium tech", it has evolved into a 4th gen light multi-role fighter. Block III, like evolution of the -16 or Mirages, can become a medium multi role jet. Essentially a different plane like you see in F-16 block 52. So you took a medium jet from light to mmrca, which is huge. As of today, for the price, the multi role capability is unmatched. So really, you need to highlight all factors and show us why Argentina said no.

 

[Pindi Boy]

India will not send that 200 jets all together at one place it will b coming from places where we dont have SAMs they can't enter from lahore as Lahore is heavily armed with SAMs and other parts also have SAMs they will enter from desert parts like thar or may b the part between Lahore and multan these are two little week parts they don't have guts to go in a place which is fully loaded with SAMs now what if they enter from Thar or the part b/w multan and Lahore .... Base minhas will initially deploy it's F-7 P interceptors + Mirage to counter them and for more support Thunder can b deployed to and these parts there r air defense units hiding they will also take part F-7 Mirage and Thunder will b enough as F-7 can intercept few as in interception you don't need maneuverability u need the best head-on shooting capability and our skybolt has it our mirage has a week head-on capability but they are good at tackling enemy and they can reach the area quickly as they are the fastest jet in PAF and our thunder can do the rest of close combat then later on F-16s will b deployed but only from no-9 sqn from sargodha there are F-16 block 15 in sargodha but after MLU upgrade they have reached block-52 standard as in anatolian eagle 2008 PAF's F-16 were able to shot EFT's one of the world's known maneuverable jets ....!!!!!! this will b the first thing gona happen then ....??? THE REST OF WAR ...!!!! the counter attacks then if a full scale war brokes out BVR combat capabilities are useless ...!!!!!! you know why ?????? both countries have AESA AWACS both will jam each other's long range radars as both have radar jaming pods and bohat have A level radar jaming capabilities so what ????? both countries get their radar's jamed ...!!!! it will again come to the dog fights that prity hard turn those battle tactics , bearing extra Gs and u know ...?? u know the history we r best in dog fights no matter they have more advanced more maneuverable jets v won ..... but now we also have 8 G thunder and 9 G viper and our Jf-17 block 3 will also b 9 G fighter .............................. wait one thing i showed the use of mirage ..... mirage still can play an important role and also is very good in deep strikes and night missions so after countering them we will attack back on Endia with use of Mirage 3 rose 1 and mirage 5 E and with mighty F-16 block 52 wich will use CFT's for longer range and sniper targeting pods ................!!

 

[salarsikander]

You wont agree, but feelenig apart, What he stated is True. He is talking about Trade Imbalanace.
India is already facing the Trade Inbalance. Tomorrow you will face it, as the volume od trade grows.

See, the problem is not that can be solved eaisiliy, indians are finding it hard ( in case of chinese ) , but atleast we do accept it as a problem.

This was identified in case of Russia and Iran as well and methods have been used to decrease the Trade Imbalance.

Hi,

Again what I see typical, crying, whining and moaning even before the play has started !

I see this as an opportunity to uplift my country's social and economical wealth. Trade imbalance balance is natural.

What matter is how this will change the entire economic scenario of Pakistan.

The problem will come later, let it the program start before spoiling the party

 

[MastanKhan]

MK, to be honest with you, you aren't making sense anymore. In one sentence, you are saying the SU-27 in a bombing role, will not be able to tackle the enemy aircraft. But then, you constantly make the case for JH7A......which is a two decade older modified design for SU-25 (much older plane). If the SU-27 (modified to the teeth as J-11D) can't hold its own, how the heck could a 4 decade concept hold its own???


J-11D is the best option for the PAF decent numbers and affordable. Or, 44-64 (2-3 squadrons and trainers) of SU-35. That's it. Or 80-100 FC-20, either combination would help. Plus add 18 new -16's block 52 or 30-ish used -16's (still cheaper than 18 brand new ones).

JFT's loiter time is smaller......but if its placed closer to the border for interception, an airway lasts for a few minutes, if that. You know that. And JFT can be VERY effective IF places closer to the border and positions properly. Hell, your F-7's and Mirages can be good assets IF positioned properly, close to the border so their Sidewinders can lock onto the inbound jet's the second they take off. You defeat SU-30's or anyone else's bigger radar advantage.

One thing the USAF teaches it pilots again and again is that you win half the battle when you force the enemy to fight under your rules. In which case, the second a -16 forces a -15 into close combat, the -15 immediately uses it bigger radar advantage. The results then are usually in Viper's favor. Same thing for the PAF, deploy the JFT, the Mirages and F-7's closer to the border so you get maximum out of them.

Like I said before many times, the planes to acquire more 4.5 generation aircraft are on the table. The weight was to find out what India gets and this was buying time for the PAF too, as they wanted to see FC-20 and J11D getting matured up. Now you also have the Russian option for the SU-35 (great jet). So options are open. A call will be made soon. Got to have the patience. The wasted time since the 90's can't be returned but hey, no harm no foul. Every-time is right when you decide to course correct yourself!!

Hi,

It is very simple----. The poster said to me---the JH7B would be vulnerable to the enemy aircraft---and my reply---so will the SU 27---. It has not stopped the enemy from using the SU 27 .

You cannot place ay of the fighter close to the border anymore----all these aircraft will be farthest from the border. With the current ranges of the MRL's and standoff weapons----closer air bases are toast.

Loiter time is the most important part of the combat----. 4 hours of loiter time for the Phantoms to the 30 minutes loiter time for the Mig 21's----we all know what happened in the 73 ramazan war with the Egyptian fighters----. The Israeli phantoms were waiting for them to go back to refuel and then pounce on them.

I am not talking about JH7A----it is the JH7B I am mentioning all thru the conversation----. If the paf could use the A5's and F7P's and PG's and make something out of them---they for sure can make the JH7B usefull----.

Now if they can get the J 11---I am all for it---now you have an air superiority fighter as well. But the JH7B in cae cost was a factor and the J11 type not available.

The U S air force may force the enemy to fight the way the U S air force wants them to fight---due to the numbers and technology it has----and not due to fact that they are some super studs.

Give the enemy the same resources as the U S has and switch the roles and assets---and the enemy would do the same to the U S.

It is very easy to make claims ON A FULL STOMACH.

 

[Eagle Claw]

India will not send that 200 jets all together at one place it will b coming from places where we dont have SAMs they can't enter from lahore as Lahore is heavily armed with SAMs and other parts also have SAMs they will enter from desert parts like thar or may b the part between Lahore and multan these are two little week parts they don't have guts to go in a place which is fully loaded with SAMs now what if they enter from Thar or the part b/w multan and Lahore .... Base minhas will initially deploy it's F-7 P interceptors + Mirage to counter them and for more support Thunder can b deployed to and these parts there r air defense units hiding they will also take part F-7 Mirage and Thunder will b enough as F-7 can intercept few as in interception you don't need maneuverability u need the best head-on shooting capability and our skybolt has it our mirage has a week head-on capability but they are good at tackling enemy and they can reach the area quickly as they are the fastest jet in PAF and our thunder can do the rest of close combat then later on F-16s will b deployed but only from no-9 sqn from sargodha there are F-16 block 15 in sargodha but after MLU upgrade they have reached block-52 standard as in anatolian eagle 2008 PAF's F-16 were able to shot EFT's one of the world's known maneuverable jets ....!!!!!! this will b the first thing gona happen then ....??? THE REST OF WAR ...!!!! the counter attacks then if a full scale war brokes out BVR combat capabilities are useless ...!!!!!! you know why ?????? both countries have AESA AWACS both will jam each other's long range radars as both have radar jaming pods and bohat have A level radar jaming capabilities so what ????? both countries get their radar's jamed ...!!!! it will again come to the dog fights that prity hard turn those battle tactics , bearing extra Gs and u know ...?? u know the history we r best in dog fights no matter they have more advanced more maneuverable jets v won ..... but now we also have 8 G thunder and 9 G viper and our Jf-17 block 3 will also b 9 G fighter .............................. wait one thing i showed the use of mirage ..... mirage still can play an important role and also is very good in deep strikes and night missions so after countering them we will attack back on Endia with use of Mirage 3 rose 1 and mirage 5 E and with mighty F-16 block 52 wich will use CFT's for longer range and sniper targeting pods ................!!

Mirages and Most F-7s are now History. We should Get Rid of them as Quickly as Possible. Only F-7 PGs will remain with PAF for sometime as they are relatively Newer and have better performance.
Regarding Mirages, The Machines Have Crossed their Last Point of Deliverance.
So its Better to Forget both.
We should Seriously think about Some Other Jet, Some new jet to which we can dedicate what was dedicated to Mirages. Means here I will Choose JH-7B, for Caring Ra'ad for Nuclear Strikes or Even Babar. JH-7B offers 9 Hardpoints with 10 k + Payload.
And For F-7s, JF-17 Thunder are their Direct Replacement.

I think we should also Think to Sell These Mirage Roses and F-7 Ps to get some money out of it.
That money can be utilized in Purchasing new Platforms.

 

[MastanKhan]

Dear Sir haven't it's air combat capabilities are limited if compared with J11B or J16

Hi,

The JH7B---is that what you are asking about----! Off course they are---but it will only cost around 20--25 mil a piece---and with an enemy with 3 times our assets----we need some aircraft to do the daage.

But of the J11's and J 16's are available---off course---they should be taken.

jh 7 could carry alot of ordnance but the radar is worse than klj 7v2
80 km at 5m2
kljv2 145km @ 5m2

Hi,

We would be looking at the new aesa radar for this aircraft.