JF-17 French Avionics Deal On Hold/Cancelled

[karan.1970]

But barring some top secret projects like Pak Fa, J xx etc, almost all combat planes and their systems are available for testing as most of those planes are in the commercial market. So if India has tested F 16 and a few Pakistani pilots have flown Su 30s, it does not make these planes useless..

 

[TaimiKhan]

C'mon Taimi... Go thru the thread.. and see the thanks from the Pakistani members to each post that finds faults with Rafale..

Senior Pakistani members calling it a disaster product with lost future..
Identigying design issues and problems with sensors, electronic warfare etc etc..

And not to say that the thread was opened promptly a day after the J 17 news..

The sentiments are fairly visible and rightfully so.. Its a little unnecessary to defend that...

People thank posts mostly when they read something useful. Many here thought and still think Rafale is one of the best among the 4.5gen aircraft, but as that article surfaced, it got thanks not for French bashing, rather the new info put forward about what really Rafale is which many did not knew.

I myself thought Rafale to be the best & still also, but when read that article, many things made me think twice as how many angles there are to judge an aircraft.

French avionics are still the best and optimal for JF-17, but if Indians have a good know how about them, then it becomes problematic for us as we will lose the element of surprise.

And up till now if we look at its sales performance, then one should think why it is so, even though previous French models were huge success and proved their metal in combat.

 

[TaimiKhan]

But barring some top secret projects like Pak Fa, J xx etc, almost all combat planes and their systems are available for testing as most of those planes are in the commercial market. So if India has tested F 16 and a few Pakistani pilots have flown Su 30s, it does not make these planes useless..

They do lose a lot of their element of surprise. And its not just flight characteristics, there are other things involved too.

 

[ramu]

If that is so why were Indians crying that IAF should not buy F-16IN because PAF has F-16s, even though we have much older ones and the poor executives of LM had to say on many occasions that F-16IN is totally different then what PAF has.

And then India has just testing or is testing the Rafale and would definitely know about the best French avionics and its true specifications and capabilities.

And now as IAF getting its mirage updated by French and they would most probably get RDY-3 or RC-400 radars in the upgrade package and if we get the same radar or something like it, wouldn't they know what capabilities and weak points in the French system are and how to exploit them.

If Indians have tested the Rafale & its capabilities, what good is the inferior French avionics for the JF-17.

So yes if same platform is with both opposing airforce, then their usefulness goes away, then situation will revert back to old dog fighting and the lucky one or the best trained pilot will win the day.

You have brought up something totally different from the topic we are discussing. With all due respect, PAF has mastered F16 in and out. It will take IAF a while to get that kind of control where the synergy between man and machine is top notch. I think many people have clearly highlighted this point.

Did you forget that we are offered f-18 super hornet. US admits that f-18 is a superior plane and in a contest between f18 SH and f16 all other things being equal, f18 will win on more occasions. So why bother ?

About Indian access to french avionics (MRCA) : India has access to avionics from around the world but for the Chinese. We don't think of Chinese avionics highly and this is not a changed stance. The point I made is the knowledge about Indian evaluation of the french fighter is not new. It was well known as the tender details and participants was public knowledge.

Does that answer your question ?

 

[TaimiKhan]

You have brought up something totally different from the topic we are discussing. With all due respect, PAF has mastered F16 in and out. It will take IAF a while to get that kind of control where the synergy between man and machine is top notch. I think many people have clearly highlighted this point.

Did you forget that we are offered f-18 super hornet. US admits that f-18 is a superior plane and in a contest between f18 SH and f16 all other things being equal, f18 will win on more occasions. So why bother ?

About Indian access to french avionics (MRCA) : India has access to avionics from around the world but for the Chinese. We don't think of Chinese avionics highly and this is not a changed stance. The point I made is the knowledge about Indian evaluation of the french fighter is not new. It was well known as the tender details and participants was public knowledge.

Does that answer your question ?

Nops it doesn't.

Simple thing is, if Indian Mirages get RC-400 radar and JF-17 also gets the same radar, M2K get the same other avionics and JF-17 also gets nearly the same ones, then which plane will have element of surprise in the avionics section as in nowadays fights, BVR will be the first option. India know RC-400, capabilties and weak points, we also know, what advantage anyone of them have left.

That is my point.

 

[ANG]

Hi, in my previous post nowhere did I say French stuff was useless. What I did say is India will have a good understanding of their capabilities owing to their simialar M2K upgrade.

I personally do not want the PAF to pay billions of Euros for limited technology transfer and constraints on what they can do with that technology.

Yes, it is a pain to have to start over, given the years spent in negotiations, but it is better in the long run. China has hordes of programmers/engineers and they always innovate. They will come up with something, it will take time.

Moreover, the RC400 is a pulse doppler radar, in this day and age you should be moving towards an AESA radar. Thanks!

 

[ramu]

Nops it doesn't.

Simple thing is, if Indian Mirages get RC-400 radar and JF-17 also gets the same radar, M2K get the same other avionics and JF-17 also gets nearly the same ones, then which plane will have element of surprise in the avionics section as in nowadays fights, BVR will be the first option. India know RC-400, capabilties and weak points, we also know, what advantage anyone of them have left.

That is my point.

Well good point but you cannot deny that this is not something new and it is not a shaping development that dawned on Pakistan after France deal went cold.

 

[ramu]

Moreover, the RC400 is a pulse doppler radar, in this day and age you should be moving towards an AESA radar. Thanks!

AESA radar for J17 is like fitting a car for the road with a F1 drive by wire technology


Yes, India will and can look into avionics of most fighters including US systems. So no point in rejecting systems for that very reason. If that is a crucial factor in PAF decision making they will be left with little choice (read China).

 

[qsaark]

AESA radar for J17 is like fitting a car for the road with a F1 drive by wire technology

For a member with more than 300 posts, something better was expected. The modern fighters are going to be equipped with AESA radars regardless of their size and intended role (air superiority or interdiction/attack) for the advantages AESA offers over traditional radars that include the following:

i. Difficult to detect an AESA-equipped fighter
ii. Traditional RWR are not effective against AESA
iii. Difficult to employ jamming against AESA

AESA not only adds to the punch of a fighter but increases its survivability by several folds.

 

[ramu]

For a member with more than 300 posts, something better was expected. The modern fighters are going to be equipped with AESA radars regardless of their size and intended role (air superiority or interdiction/attack) for the advantages AESA offers over traditional radars that include the following:

i. Difficult to detect an AESA-equipped fighter
ii. Traditional RWR are not effective against AESA
iii. Difficult to employ jamming against AESA

AESA not only adds to the punch of a fighter but increases its survivability by several folds.

QSark, my comment on J17 and AESA radar was on the lighter vein. Good to point out about the number of posts. Surprising that they have reached 300 in quick time.

You don't want me to give you a list of car's on road with drive by wire technology .. do you

Do you agree that JF-17 will be manufactured in large numbers and AESA radar does not come cheap ? All I am trying to say is JF-17 is a cost effective aircraft that has a cost advantage that suits Pakistan. The moment we consider avionics from France, AESA radar, etc, its price shoots up.

 

[qsaark]

Do you agree that JF-17 will be manufactured in large numbers and AESA radar does not come cheap ? All I am trying to say is JF-17 is a cost effective aircraft that has a cost advantage that suits Pakistan. The moment we consider avionics from France, AESA radar, etc, its price shoots up.

Two AESA-equipped JF-17s will be better in terms of performance and survivability than three non-AESA-equipped JF-17s. For the PAF, cost effectiveness is not that much of a concern than the strength and quality of her adversary's Air Force. Major European countries and USA are not supplying us with modern jets not because we cant make those purchases, but because of political/strategical interest (embargoed F-16s in 90s is an example). PAF officials were negotiating with French and or Italians knowing very well that an avionics suite purchased from them would be more expensive yet they went for it suggests that GoP could absorb the additional cost.

 

[Creder]

QSark, my comment on J17 and AESA radar was on the lighter vein. Good to point out about the number of posts. Surprising that they have reached 300 in quick time.

You don't want me to give you a list of car's on road with drive by wire technology .. do you

Do you agree that JF-17 will be manufactured in large numbers and AESA radar does not come cheap ? All I am trying to say is JF-17 is a cost effective aircraft that has a cost advantage that suits Pakistan. The moment we consider avionics from France, AESA radar, etc, its price shoots up.

SELEX has already offered PAF the Vixen 500E AESA radar but PAF has all options open for a even better AESA radar. The first batch of 50 ACs is unlikely to get anything but the chineese one however a different most probably AESA radar will be chosen for the JF-17

 

[ANG]

Hi, it all depends what the PAF envisions the JF-17 to be. If they want it to take on the Su-30, then they seriously need to equip it with an AESA radar, and moreover improve its thrust to wait ratio.

But then again, as you mentioned, AESA is not cheap and then resources will be an issue. I personally would like an AESA in the JF-17, but then again can the PAF afford it? Paisa, paisa, and paisa!!! Thanks.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Hi, it all depends what the PAF envisions the JF-17 to be. If they want it to take on the Su-30, then they seriously need to equip it with an AESA radar, and moreover improve its thrust to wait ratio.

But then again, as you mentioned, AESA is not cheap and then resources will be an issue. I personally would like an AESA in the JF-17, but then again can the PAF afford it? Paisa, paisa, and paisa!!! Thanks.

JF-17 is still a very cheap priced aircraft in comparison to the performance it has. At 20M US$, its pretty cheap. And with in house production the price may even go down considerably. So if that happens, we will have enough room to buy AESA radar available and its not compulsory that each JF-17 has to be equipped with AESA.

And with AESA even if the JF-17 costs us 25M per piece, not a bad bargain.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well if we are producing 300 JF17 Thunder we just need AESA required on 80 planes to be in hand of ace pilots in the JF17 thunder

The other thunders can be candidates for future upgrades. Or Support fighters

If 1 squadron 18 planes has 3 AESA enabled fighters that is sufficient

The data can be shared between the planes and pilots

What is important from our prespective is we get our Chinese AWACs in our hand soon so we can start to link up the Chinese built planes together

I have always questioned why we did not choose the AESA offered by British company