JF-17 Fighter: China's Weird MiG-21 and F-16 Hybrid

[ziaulislam]

And that is what is being contended for, at least on my part. Apparently, for some of us, it can't be because they can't "see it". Doesn't matter what the people involved in the process have to say or the fact that examples of a lot more radical evolutionary iterations are present in the world. The Porsche 918 is well documented to have come from the VW Beetle but then it does not since our friends such as @ziaulislam can't "see it". Others such as @Dalit are still stuck on whether the US was involved with the SABRE II and the Super-7 projects after everyone in the world, i.e. the Pakistanis, the Chinese, the Americans have stated the same thing. He still demands proof. I believe it doesn't matter any more how it is but rather how one wants it to have been.



I don't think the ongoing debate is about the JF-17 being an upgraded Mig-21, none of the articles/posts posted stated anything remotely as such. That would be ludicrous.

The argument at first was about the US' involvement with the SABRE II and Super-7 projects. Now, apparently, it's about whether the SABRE II and Super-7 projects grandfathered the JF-17 project or not.



Well, now you know what its like.



No it wasn't. I mashed those pictures together myself.



That is exactly what evolution is. That is how it works.



Why would they? Do you understand the process of evolution? Do you understand what "being based upon" or "evolved from" or "has roots in" means?

The Porsche 918 being based on the Beetle example was ignored by you. How about these two?

F-86

F-100

or these two,

T-90,

T-72,

After you're done reasoning whether "you see it or not" please compare the specifications in both these examples as well.



What you have to actually say isn't as important as you might think it is. Rhetoric doesn't really fly, arguments do.


Anyway, I've given you statements from people who were actually involved in the projects, examples of a lot more radical examples of evolution than the JF-17 and some that might help you understand how design evolution works. But in the end, the horse and water and what not.

Now you are comolecomp confusion stuff..have you heard any body saying the f16 is German design they pioneer all designs ..or ever heard ak47 is Chinese design because they invented gun powder

Honestly this is silly discussion. There is nothing common in LERX, DELTA and cropped Delta wing and the mig21or saber 7

Jf 17 was started from scratch board based upon konwlege acquired from the last 1000 years of human history from wheels to basic flight models ...this doesn't mean it's based upon wright brothers design or saber 7 ..because they were dead at that time..did PAF learned something from saber 7 obviously they learned from everywhere..the Chinese who spear headed the design learned from everyone and everywhere so are you going to call it a Russian German or american design..

Based upon examples which drew clear inspirations are j10 on lavi or j8 on mig21 where there was no need to througly think about requirements or changing design

So you are saying China j20 is based upon American f22

So if you want to link everything to everything than just say it's based upon wright brothers design lol..or go back and say who ever made the first wheel why stop at saber 7..

 

[randomradio]

Here is the what "Mig21" looks like.

View attachment 484081




This is how JF17 looks like:

View attachment 484082





LOL. its not even funny. even pathetic to compare the two jets from different era and league.


JF17 is more of combo between f18 (front), f16 (mid to behind).

I see a resemblance. Mig-21 >> J-7 >> Sabre II >> Super 7 >> JF-17... all directly related.

 

[Armchair]

Don't try to obfuscate little bacha, USA may have cooperated with China before the Tinanmen square incident, but Now USA does not cooperate with China on anything. USA is even on a trade war with China.

Who is clueless is you.

JF-17 didn't derive from the Sabre 2 project, that is quite clear given that the MiG-33 design was adopted. The engines were also adopted from the MiG-33 project. We have senior members who were involved with the project on record mention this Russian connection.

Clueless and stupid really. Particularly that the JF-17 program was tested at an American university! As if the Russians need that. But Aunt Nancy says a lot of silly things online, it helps them feel more American than where they are really from.

okay so f-16 is derivative of saber..
you are confusing stuff here your self..
you can go back and say that every airplan is derived from wright brothers idea...???
or every usa project has roots in german designs...???
if that is what you mean than indeed jf-17 is derived from saber project..because otherwise they absolutely look completely different with completely different specifications..

if a truck has roots with sedan yeah than you are right

precisely.

 

[araz]

They are relentless in their ignorance and jealousy, we have to be relentless in sorting them out.

You should be relentless in ignoring them. No benefit in arguing and raising your blood pressure. Put on ignore list and move on.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

You should be relentless in ignoring them. No benefit in arguing and raising your blood pressure. Put on ignore list and move on.
A

Ignore list is for the ignorants. Problems should be handled rather than ignored.

 

[araz]

Ignore list is for the ignorants. Problems should be handled rather than ignored.

I have been her since 2006 and many have come and gone trying to handle these maggots. Believe me it os no use. However you are welcome to try. If you last az l9ng as I have then you will probably come to the same conclusion.
A

 

[Raider 21]

JF-17 didn't derive from the Sabre 2 project, that is quite clear given that the MiG-33 design was adopted. The engines were also adopted from the MiG-33 project. We have senior members who were involved with the project on record mention this Russian connection.

Clueless and stupid really. Particularly that the JF-17 program was tested at an American university! As if the Russians need that. But Aunt Nancy says a lot of silly things online, it helps them feel more American than where they are really from.



precisely.

The man back then was serving in PAF. He eventually became a prof at an American university. Hope that clears a bit of the confusion. Never said anything about the JF-17 program being tested AT an American university. He was part of the pioneering team in the mid 90s.

I believe the second part of the comment is directed towards me. If you feel better at insulting me, keep it up. I apologise for my part earlier. I'm from Pakistan if it makes you feel better to know where I'm from....

 

[Indus Pakistan]

We (PAF) were the ones who contracted Grumman for the SABRE II

Thanks for the fact loaded post with strong referances. So it appears like this. JF-17 is a Us influenced, Chinese designed aircraft that is noe exported to be Pakistan "build/assemble" basis. Much like our much touted car industry.

Ahh well at least we get to spray it and apply PAF decals ........

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Thank you for the little treasure trove you have attached to your post. I appreciated the read greatly.
I think it is safe to say that for the PAF it has been a Journey which has seen its evolution from the Sabre2 programme to the super 7 programme leading to the JFT/ FC1. To say that the 3 are related is true only as far as the historical aspect goes. Sure there may have been design elements of all the programmes which were incorporated but then to infer that JFT is an upgraded Mig 21 is like saying that because USA made the F104, the F16 is an upgraded F104. Designs and requirements have moved immensely since the late 80 to the 2000 and perhaps even now(something which the Chinese have also complained about as well). So the Block 2 has evolved into what block 1 was not, and block 3 will evolve further.
A side point to all this testosterone release is that this discussion could have been carried out in a more amicable manner. That is the sad aspect of the board.
A

The F-104 was designed by Lockheed, and the F-16 was designed by General Dynamics,
so the analogy lacks a bit.

 

[Armchair]

They are relentless in their ignorance and jealousy, we have to be relentless in sorting them out.

The Super 7 died in the late 1980s and by 1991 there was nothing. Dead and buried.

The JF-17 took off in 1998. Virtually a decade later. It was designed using the MiG-33 layout using an RD-33.

There have been input from as many sources as possible, including Pakistani-origin engineers from various US programs (including the F/A-18). But the US never "helped" Pakistan or China with the JF-17. Au contraire, they tried everything they possibly could to stop it.

To try to re-write history is completely dishonest and unbecoming.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

I see a resemblance. Mig-21 >> J-7 >> Sabre II >> Super 7 >> JF-17... all directly related.

LOL. Put your reading glasses on or get your eyes checked.

I can see the resemblance between the plane Wright brothers flew and F35!

The Super 7 died in the late 1980s and by 1991 there was nothing. Dead and buried.

The JF-17 took off in 1998. Virtually a decade later. It was designed using the MiG-33 layout using an RD-33.

There have been input from as many sources as possible, including Pakistani-origin engineers from various US programs (including the F/A-18). But the US never "helped" Pakistan or China with the JF-17. Au contraire, they tried everything they possibly could to stop it.

To try to re-write history is completely dishonest and unbecoming.

Yanks tried everything in the book to stop JF17 project, even tried the notorious "F sola" lobby within PAF to scuttle the project. AVM shahid latif is on record.

 

[That Guy]

LOL what a BS article.

America has zero input in the JF-17 project. If anything the Americans are on the record in opposing this project between China and Pakistan.

Actually read the article, before commenting. The article doesn't say the US had input on the thunder at all, and only states already well known factual information.

For example, the thunder DOES take cues from the F-16, as the PAF wanted a fighter that was very similar in performance to the viper.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

You should be relentless in ignoring them. No benefit in arguing and raising your blood pressure. Put on ignore list and move on.
A

Its a matter of choice and nature. You are happy ignoring, I enjoying taking them Headon.

At the end of the day , it's not really about these low life scumbags , its the narrative that goes out to neutral readers. If you don't counter them, the rest of the people take their narrative as truth, which in this day and age is a very effective weapon.

 

[Raider 21]

Its a matter of choice and nature. You are happy ignoring, I enjoying taking them Headon.

At the end of the day , it's not really about these low life scumbags , its the narrative that goes out to neutral readers. If you don't counter them, the rest of the people take their narrative as truth, which in this day and age is a very effective weapon.

Are you referring to me on this post ??

 

[Armchair]

Aerodynamics and flight dynamics calcs were done through US help.....but very slightly in the early launch stage....[[/COLOR]/QUOTE]

I can't speak for him, but perhaps the original article and posts such as the above can be considered inaccurate. Its assumed you're talking about the JF-17 and not some other combat aircraft.