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JF-17 "Extremely close" to the MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan

Egypt is a serious enough nation when compared to what it operates and who is the enemy.

Turkey, not sure they will go for it, as they have JSF-35 coming their way.

JF-17 will take time to mature and as it matures, it will attract more mature customers.

Fair enough ! However keep in mind that world will not be stagnant till JF17 matures , it would have advanced to whole different level.

Sir, 42 JF-17s signed for 800Mln was a public news, with agreements signed between representatives and stuff like that. This 36 FC-20 deal has not been signed nor any official confirmation. Its based on a rumor, the only thing confirm is that PAF has given consent for acquiring the fighter, for how much and what is involved, that is not clear. So you may be taking the 40Mln figure, i am not.

Plus, the PAF ACM is on record of having said that price negotiations for FC-20 are still being held and details yet not known. You can Google it up and see the statement for itself. Here let me help you with that, see his interview to JDW and financial negotiations yet to happen.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...r-suleman-pakistan-air-force-chief-air-s.html

Here, plz view post#567 by pshamim Sb, who said China is asking for 40Mln for FC-20, while Pakistan is saying 25Mln. pshamim Sb is a very reliable source, rather a very very reliable source when it comes to PAF. He said this in March of this year, thus negotiations on price going on and we have yet to see the final figure. If Pakistan is asking for 25Mln, it would mean it knows what the real price for it is, while China may be asking for 40Mln for other reasons.

Post#567
J10/FC-20 and PAF doctrine

Taimi,

It is you who asked me to post official sources and not figures from sino defence. I did put forward a published report from a chinese mouth piece and now you are pointing me to a post from Shamim sir and asking me to believe that J10 is being negotiated for 25 million. Chalo, i will trust you and Shamim sir on the cost of J10.
However i cant comprehend the reason why Chinese would go on two build and sell two types of planes for negligible cost difference with exactly the same avionics...and further why would PLAF/PAF opt for J10 or why would PLAF/PAF opt for JF17 if the difference are comparatively neglible? This is precisely what i am failing to understand , however as you said time will tell. So i rest my case.


I believe at this point and as per my above clarification, it is premature to say what the real price is and what is not, only final deal may tell, which that even may not be the true one for Pakistan. Inside price may be something else, for the world it would be something else, for obvious reasons.

And for comparison at this stage, plzzz compare the prices of 28Mln as per the CAF divisional commander and PAF JF-17 at 19 Mln, not the 40Mln with no official source to support it. The 28Mln & 19Mln are backed up by official or much reliable sources at this stage of time.

And China asking for 40Mln would be most probably to give a message to the world that it is over now with making cheap planes, a 40Mln price tag would suggest quality too.

I will take your word for 28 or 25 million.

with regards to bold part -- why would chinese do that ? Chinese are known for their cheap products ...and if they are pointing out to quality with a cheap price-- then there is a saying in the world "you get what you paid for"...that is not going to change anytime soon....I believe Chinese instead is advertising J10 as high tech fighter visa as compared to JF17 hence the cost difference... but at 28 million a pop for J10 that argument doesnt hold weight.


Plzzz Sir, not you atleast.

Whether JF-17, J-10 or Mig-29, the final decision would be based on the operator's specifications, pocket and requirements.

If an operator neds JF-17 which fulfills all its requirements, it will go for it, if someone is satisfied with J-10 or Mig-29, they will go for that.

Air forces can even make the hi-lo mix as PAF is making, F-16/FC-20s for its hi end, while JF-17s for its lo end.

In the end, the operator will choose based on what it suits its needs best, what is its operational/threat perception requirements and what it can afford.

JF-17 is a light fighter, made for air forces who want a light fighter in their operational requirements and want to replace their light fighters with as little cash to spend with something generations ahead.

J-10 & Mig-29 are medium weight fighter aircraft, those who are in need of these beasts, will go for them.

Those who want both, will go for both, JF-17s & J-10/Mig-29s.

Sorry for the dig !
 
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Relax they are refering to capabilities....by your argument a Mig 29 and F16 should never have been contemporaries/ compared , yet they are !! Correct ?

The article mentioned earlier that the JF-17 is a "cheaper imitation of the MIG-29". How do you make a "cheaper imitation" of another plane's capabilities? No where in the article did they make it clear that they were referring to the capabilities.
 
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Fair enough ! However keep in mind that world will not be stagnant till JF17 matures , it would have advanced to whole different level.

Fully agreed, but in the light fighter category, there won't be much players.


Taimi,

It is you who asked me to post official sources and not figures from sino defence. I did put forward a published report from a chinese mouth piece and now you are pointing me to a post from Shamim sir and asking me to believe that J10 is being negotiated for 25 million. Chalo, i will trust you and Shamim sir on the cost of J10.

I did not put a ? on your source, rather pshamim posts gives further credence to your source for the 40Mln figure. You came up with the 40Mln figure, so did Shamim Sb said, thus your figure is closer to the reality. Its Pakistan who is asking for a lower price compared to what the Chines are asking. Why is China asking for 40Mln while we have a Chinese pilot saying 28Mln cost for CAF, well it seems they only know, to me there was one logic which i said, there is nothing else or may be they want to earn bucks big time.

However i cant comprehend the reason why Chinese would go on two build and sell two types of planes for negligible cost difference with exactly the same avionics...and further why would PLAF/PAF opt for J10 or why would PLAF/PAF opt for JF17 if the difference are comparatively neglible? This is precisely what i am failing to understand , however as you said time will tell. So i rest my case.

See, J-10 was an official program of China, PLAAF was the main force behind it who needed a newer, more modern platform, it had official govt funding and was started way back before JF-17, while JF-17 was a joint venture between Pakistan and Chinese Aircraft manufacturer who used its own funds, not from the govt of China. Thus in this way both programs are different. JF-17 was designed for export customers looking at the lower end, for those who want light fighter aircraft and wanna replace ts older light fighters. If an air force wanna replace a Mig-21/F-7 with something light for about 20Mln, why would it go for a much expensive/heavier platform in the shape of J-10 or Mig-29 ??

And manufacturing cost is not the only thing, you need to see maintenance costs, operational costs during the life span of the aircraft. J-10 with bigger engine will eat more fuel, more expensive spare parts, expensive replacement engine etc etc, while for a light fighter aircraft, less fuel consumption, less expensive spare parts, thus in long run overall less costs. Hope you get the point.



I will take your word for 28 or 25 million.

28Mln is th figure by the CAF guy for the fully equipped Chinese version of J-10, while 25 Mln is being asked by PAF and what would be the configuration be, no one knows. may be its asking 25Mln with reduced things which it want to add from some other sources.

with regards to bold part -- why would chinese do that ? Chinese are known for their cheap products ...and if they are pointing out to quality with a cheap price-- then there is a saying in the world "you get what you paid for"...that is not going to change anytime soon....I believe Chinese instead is advertising J10 as high tech fighter visa as compared to JF17 hence the cost difference... but at 28 million a pop for J10 that argument doesnt hold weight.

Sorry for the dig !

Both are high tech aircrafts, difference is in their sizes, thus performance would differ. J-10 can carry more payload at longer ranges, with a big nose carrying a more powerful radar, even though rest of the avionics may be same for both platforms, while JF-17 is light, which can go to short distances with lesser payload.

So your major difference is here, payload, range & radar performance, which can be vital for an airforce as per its requirements. For those where these 3 major indicators doesn't matter, they will go for a smaller platform.

And as said, either China wants big bucks or wanna send some message to the world, i don't see any other logical reason for such high price for this fighter.
 
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J-10 is currently not for export....not for a long time. PAF is the only one to operate it.

JF-17 has nothing to do with China. PAF went to Chengdu Aircraft company and said..."Hey you want to help us build this jet..." and they agreed.

Now they are Chinese company it doesn't mean that their government has a stake in it.

J-10 is different than JF-17.


JF-17 replaces F-7 and Mirage and Mig 21/23 series in other airforces.

J-10 is a whole new fighter.

Even if you buy JF-17 you still need J-10.

Look at the payloads of J-10 and MIG 29. They don't compare much. J-10 can carry much more than what MIG29SMT can.

who told u that J-10 is not available for export???:what:
 
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so far Russians were the masters of the "cheap and good fighter", now after seeing a chinese threat to their prouct line they are feeling the heat..

it is very Funny, as they initially helped (some MiG participation) in early phases of FC1 project. and now they are feeling that they are thretended because of same item they helped Chinese to create....
 
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^ Mark I think PAF should acquire the Cobra HMS from S.Africa - what do you suggest?
PAF might be testing a variant of the Denel Archer HMD/S for JF-17...indications of this include the potential offer of A-Darter as well as the PAF documentary showing an HMD/S which was strikingly similar to Archer - except was using a standard PAF mask...i.e. this scene:

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7678/jf17hmds.jpg
SOURCE: PAF DOCUMENTARY...other options include the French Thales TopOwl-F should MICA-IR be chosen.
This is ridiculous Mig 29 is twin engine aircraft. It will be unwise to compare these two aircraft's. But if said so, jf-17 is single engine aircraft therefore, the payload it will take will be much less. The other thing is that its thrust/weight ratio will directly depend upon the engine it carries. Currently it is said that the engine of JF-17 will be RD-93 which is used as one of the two engines in Mig-29 so in principle JF-17 should have atleast half the weight of MiG-29. JF-17 will be primarily used as air superiority aircraft on the other hand MiG-29 is a multi-role aircraft. The main advantages JF-17 will have over MiG-29 is the low maintenance cost and new airframe with composite materials that's all.
Yes those are airframe comparisons, but what about electronics? Are we going to accept the belief that a Serbian MiG-29 from 1990s will have better avionics, ECM/EW and radar than today's JF-17? That said, the realm of avionics, radar, weapon-systems, etc can certainly bridge significant gaps between fighters in a practical combat-scenarios, and be a decisive factor in the end. JF-17's potential to match up to the likes of even to MiG-35 and Block-60 F-16 in this area (depending on who supplies the subsystems, radar, etc) qualifies it as a close competitor. Like Block-60, the JF-17 will also be capable of using advanced JDAM-like PGBs (sourced from South Africa, Ukraine, maybe even Turkey)...for export customers, it will have the option to use modern Western AAMs (such as MICA-series), and so on. Its a potent force multiplier. Compounded by lower operating costs than the MiG-29/35, potentially lower acquisition costs as well as roughly similar capabilities does make JF-17 a strong contender.
I still did not have my answer how is it better than F16? If it was so good then why Pakistan was looking to add more F16 even after having JF17? Hope someone having knowledge of planes can help me understand. Maybe DBC or Gambit.
Well for starters, if we're talking about Block-15, then its common knowledge that the JF-17's avionics and other subsystems (such as radar) are superior...simply owing to the fact that commercial technology in this area advanced over the past 20-30 years. The Block-52+ is superior in every sense, but the Block-II will certainly bridge many of these gaps...potentially including the airframe/aerodynamic aspects as well.
 
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please enlighten me "Does plaaf has JF17 in service or have they ordered it.. since they feel it is better than F16'/mig 29 they can use this aircraft to counter any threats..
 
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please enlighten me "Does plaaf has JF17 in service or have they ordered it.. since they feel it is better than F16'/mig 29 they can use this aircraft to counter any threats..

Hi,

Here is your chance to be enlighetend---as you asked for it.

China is integrating a new aircraft the J 10 in its air force---similiarly a chinese joint venture of JF 17 is being integrated by pakistan.

It gives china an undivided oppurtunity to keep its focus on the J 10---developing the newer J 10 b---getting it ready for batch production and integration.

Similiarly pakistan is doing the same thing to the JF 17---it frees up chinese to do their thing and keep their attention focussed on one aircraft and let pakistan focus on the other.

Secondly---pakistan's participation brings out a new and unique input to the non chinese mindset into the air craft integration.

As china is freed up to develop one aircraft with confidence and take it through integration and employment, it believes that it will end up with a higher quality end product in the shape and form of both air craft.

It is a unique experiment carried out by the chinese air force for the very first time at such a large scale---like giving pakistan a carte blanche to operate and integrate the jf 17---put it through its paces---take it to england for the most important display of its kind.

Let pak do the talking and display---for joint chinese pak project of this scale---something totally new by the chinese.
 
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PAF might be testing a variant of the Denel Archer HMD/S for JF-17...indications of this include the potential offer of A-Darter as well as the PAF documentary showing an HMD/S which was strikingly similar to Archer - except was using a standard PAF mask...i.e. this scene:


Sir,
As this thread is about JF17 and Mig29, so I have a question in mind for you!
Is Mig 29 also using HMD/S or not? And whether JHMCS (we got with F16) and HMD/S is same thing?
 
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@Mastarkhan Sorry mate still i'm not clear with ur point... My question is if plaaf considers JF17 better then F16/mig 29 they can induct atleast a few squadrons, since it has come from there own R&D... if they have ignored then how come it can compete it with the best in the world.. even though they have other ongoing projects... UR point also indicates that they give importance to J10 than 17..
 
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Sir,
As this thread is about JF17 and Mig29, so I have a question in mind for you!
Is Mig 29 also using HMD/S or not? And whether JHMCS (we got with F16) and HMD/S is same thing?
JHMCS and HMD/S are basically the same thing.

MiG-29 has the same set of options for HMD/S (if not more) as JF-17...for example, IN MiG-29K will use TopSight-E...and if PAF used MICA-IR on JF-17, it will likely get TopOwl-F. But the bottom line is that both HMD systems are essentially the same, and the choice of AAMs will more or less be in the same category as one another. If IAF got Python-5 then PAF would have A-Darter...the bridge between the two fighters is not as significant as people are making it out to be. Yes, JF-17 won't have the same range, payload or performance parameters as MiG-35...but the comparison is between two roughly similar opponents as opposed to one hopeless vs. top of the line.
 
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I think JF-17 and Mig-29 are in different leagues. With MLU of Mig-29 to Mig-29SMT standard, it is miles ahead of current JF-17 in terms of radar, avionics, weapon control systems, improved engines (rd33 series 3) and a proven airframe (though old). Both fighters are no way close to each other. Most likely Russians might be accusing Chinese of copying subsystems which might be placed in JF-17.

Mig-29 forms the first line of defence against PAFs F-16s or PLAF J-10s.
 
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I think JF-17 and Mig-29 are in different leagues. With MLU of Mig-29 to Mig-29SMT standard, it is miles ahead of current JF-17 in terms of radar, avionics, weapon control systems, improved engines (rd33 series 3) and a proven airframe (though old). Both fighters are no way close to each other. Most likely Russians might be accusing Chinese of copying subsystems which might be placed in JF-17.

Mig-29 forms the first line of defence against PAFs F-16s or PLAF J-10s.
I suggest people go back and read into past air wars in the jet age and see how differences between contending fighters were fundamental or not, and then truly see if the differences between JF-17 and MiG-29 are that much. Yes, MiG-35 would eat JF-17 alive if JF-17 was flying with just AIM-9L, and the MiG-35 would be leagues ahead in A2G if JF-17 was just dropping dumb bombs.

But this is not the case in reality, their line of weapon systems are more or less similar...the packages one can acquire for radar, avionics & ECM/EW kits for each can be similar...and the gaps between most contemporary AAM are not that significant.
 
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