JF-17 "Extremely close" to the MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan

[Guynextdoor]

Not another one.

Who is talking about quality of the material used, composites used or R&D costs.

We are talking about simple, old fashioned mock dog fights, where these is no HMS, no radar or other stuff. Simple dog fights where maneuverability counts, JF-17 is superior in maneuverability section when compared to our F-16s, simple thing not very complicated.

So what if its FBW system is 3 decades old and mature, JF-17 is flying also with FBW for years now and has been thoroughly tested and matured to an extent where operational induction in PAF has taken place after it was fully found to be reliable as much as the F-16 is reliable.

Plzz if you don't know the ABC, don't derail the thread.

I ain't derailing. I'm talking about the basic platform. You know so much about it, you've worked extensively on the aerodynamics and have had 30 yrs to refine it improve it's materials, engines blah blah blah. A 'basic' platform like that in a dogfight losing out to JF 17? Nopes. FBW is only partial no? Haven't come across any reports that say otherwise. (Don't point me to JF 17 thread I've been there)

 

[karan.1970]

It's really funny how the makers(the one's with the know-how) of these Russian Jets have acknowledged JF-17 as a worthy opponent to Russian Mig-29, but somehow, the indian members are having a hard time in accepting the shocking reality.

I believe that comparison has been more from a sales perspective, meaning that given the price and performance combination (considering JF 17 is almost 60% of the price of a Mig 29), jf 17 may prove to be a good competitor to Mig 29. That does not have any bearing on making 1 plane better or worse than the other in a BVR or a knife fight.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I ain't derailing. I'm talking about the basic platform. You know so much about it, you've worked extensively on the aerodynamics and have had 30 yrs to refine it improve it's materials, engines blah blah blah. A 'basic' platform like that in a dogfight losing out to JF 17? Nopes. FBW is only partial no? Haven't come across any reports that say otherwise. (Don't point me to JF 17 thread I've been there)

OOO bhai mairay, we have the 80s variant of F-16s, no one comparing it with Blk 52s, 60s, we have nearly 3 decade old F-16s.

Plus, see sometime a picture of JF-17, it looks a little bro of F-16 due to some design familiarity, and also JF-17 was designed by looking at the best features provided in today's best aircraft, combined together and made something different.

China also has computers, wind tunnels and CFDs through which it can design and something more maneuverable then F-16 is not a big deal.

JF-17 has full FBW, there is no partial thingy.

 

[raazh]

@ptldM3 was suppose to be a sarcastic comment mate! if you read the 2nd line, still keeping ur thinking cap on, should be clear that i mentioned requirements and objectives of AF's dictating aircraft purchases.

On the other hand, if we take our caps off, same goes for Pakistan. JFT and F16 are for different roles.

 

[karan.1970]

Im not exactly sure.. but Ive come to the conclusion that put an Indian and Pakistani together.. give the Indian a Honda and the Pakistani a Rolls.. The Indian will still be going .. " That.. is useless. .. Iyee am talling you.. It is made bye hand.. itta is falty. Now you see my Honda is made by Japani robuts.. Just you think it.. Robut precision.. and hand.. no..no.. I have better"

I would have called out some of the spellings in above kind of racist if I wasnt laughing so hard after reading it...

good one though....

 

[anathema]

Well i do believe, Egypt which has shown serious interest in getting JF-17s is not some rag tag African country, rather it is a country with very high-tech western platforms, and they showing interest in JF-17 would not be just due to price, rather something else too.

Taimi ,

Please do read my post-- i refered "If a serious nation shows interest in JF17" ...and i would definetly place Turkey in the serious nation category. By rag tag militias...i was partially referring to countries such as Zimbabwe, etc. Hope this clarifies it.

The 17-20Mln is the price which has been told for the ones which are being bought by PAF, so this price has been assumed to be the export price by people without keeping in mind that this price tag is for Pakistan which is a financial partner in the program, its not the export price for other countries.

Even the last contract for 42 JF-17s was for 800Mln $$$s, giving you a 19+Mln $$ per piece price tag, though we don't know what is involved in the 800Mln price tag, just the fighter aircraft or some weapons also. My guess would be no weapons except for some WVR missiles.

So 19Mln for PAF, definitely would be more for export customers, depending on the specification they order and what can be procured and also the development costs, as PAF price tag does not has the development cost included.

And as for J-10s, the 40Mln price tag is not supported by anything official. If you have source, do let me know, official source not the sino defence source.

Here as per one of the pilot of J-10 aerobatic team, the J-10 is costing 28Mln dollar to the Chinese Air Force. So if its 28Mln to China, export price would be somewhere around 35-40Mln, adding to it the profit and other expenses price tag.

So if you go by the above facts and figures, the JF-17 costs to PAF 19Mln, while J-10 costs to China for about 28Mln, a 9-10Mln $$ price difference which is very understandable by looking at the size of both aircraft, time taken to manufacture, material used, double priced engine of J-10 and other goodies.

Hope you would have gotten your long sought answer to the query with regard to price difference between JF-17 & J-10, which is not 20Mln $$, rather 9-10Mln $$. Do remember J-10 is 2-3 tonnes or even may be more heavier when compared to JF-17, thus engine price and material used make up the major cost difference between both the planes.

Taimi,

Are you asking for official sources from PRC ? Hell i might have got official sources from erstwhile USSR, but China -- i doubt. Anyways not sure if this can be considered as official source -- but sure seems like mouth piece of Chinese governement. Also the link is 2010 , so pretty latest.

J-10 fighter enters international market at $40 million - People's Daily Online

According to Pakistani sources, Pakistan has already reached an agreement with China to buy 36 J-10 fighters at a total value of 1.4 billion U.S. dollars (40 million U.S. dollars for each fighter)

At the moment it is unclear whether spare parts, maintenance support, training and other services are included into the J-10's price.

I would leave it to your discretion on what to make of the news report but it seems authentic to me - also the fact that this is China focused news paper.

Having said that difference is more than 20 million dollars. If you say that 20 million a difference is for the engine difference, composite material and R&D expenses and profit - apologies - but i wont buy that. If i were a user i would take two JF17's for one J10 anyday if that were the only differences.

Also please note that 40 million is a price for PAF -- after bargaining . You can safely assume that this is a special frienship price for Pakistan (just like we had our su30's and mig 29's from Russia) and that to other countries Chinese would definetly try to sell it a higher price than this.

Having said that...it seems to me -- JF17 is not a threat to Mig29 ..but a threat to both J10 and Mig 29 ...now why would chinese do that ? hmmm..

 

[anathema]

TaimiKhan, Nice DP Sir.

What is a DP ? Hope you are not refering to the doosra meaning..

 

[Donatello]

J-10 is currently not for export....not for a long time. PAF is the only one to operate it.

JF-17 has nothing to do with China. PAF went to Chengdu Aircraft company and said..."Hey you want to help us build this jet..." and they agreed.

Now they are Chinese company it doesn't mean that their government has a stake in it.

J-10 is different than JF-17.


JF-17 replaces F-7 and Mirage and Mig 21/23 series in other airforces.

J-10 is a whole new fighter.

Even if you buy JF-17 you still need J-10.

Look at the payloads of J-10 and MIG 29. They don't compare much. J-10 can carry much more than what MIG29SMT can.

 

[TaimiKhan]

What is a DP ? Hope you are not refering to the doosra meaning..

Display Picture

I just had changed, so the guys were complementing it.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Made-in-China airplanes may undermine sales of Russian high quality jets

The deal is facing opposition from Russian aircraft manufacturers, such as Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi aviation holding, who said that the FC-1 is extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29. Pogosyan claimed that FC-1 is a direct competitor to Russia's MiG-29 and the deal would incur losses for the Russian manufacturers.

Video:
Made-in-China airplanes may undermine sales of Russian high quality jets - RT

Is that misleading or what? FC-1 extremely close, if not the same as the MIG-29??? If they said that the FC-1 is extremely close to the F-16 I would've kinda accepted it and just call them ignorant but MIG-29???

Any person who isn't blind could tell that the JF-17 has a SINGLE ENGINE and the MIG-29 has TWIN ENGINES. The airframes are completely different! I believe the journalists are just jumping on the J-11B/Su-30 and J-15/Su-33 bandwagon.

 

[anathema]

Display Picture

I just had changed, so the guys were complementing it.

haha ...ok....you know how brain works right...to use DP short form is wrong on so many levels...

 

[anathema]

Is that misleading or what? FC-1 extremely close, if not the same as the MIG-29??? If they said that the FC-1 is extremely close to the F-16 I would've kinda accepted it and just call them ignorant but MIG-29???

Any person who isn't blind could tell that the JF-17 has a SINGLE ENGINE and the MIG-29 has TWIN ENGINES. The airframes are completely different! I believe the journalists are just jumping on the J-11B/Su-30 and J-15/Su-33 bandwagon.

Relax they are refering to capabilities....by your argument a Mig 29 and F16 should never have been contemporaries/ compared , yet they are !! Correct ?

 

[justanobserver]

DP ?
First thought that came into my mind was Digital P****

 

[TaimiKhan]

Taimi ,

Please do read my post-- i refered "If a serious nation shows interest in JF17" ...and i would definetly place Turkey in the serious nation category. By rag tag militias...i was partially referring to countries such as Zimbabwe, etc. Hope this clarifies it.

Egypt is a serious enough nation when compared to what it operates and who is the enemy.

Turkey, not sure they will go for it, as they have JSF-35 coming their way.

JF-17 will take time to mature and as it matures, it will attract more mature customers.

Taimi,

Are you asking for official sources from PRC ? Hell i might have got official sources from erstwhile USSR, but China -- i doubt. Anyways not sure if this can be considered as official source -- but sure seems like mouth piece of Chinese governement. Also the link is 2010 , so pretty latest.

J-10 fighter enters international market at $40 million - People's Daily Online

I would leave it to your discretion on what to make of the news report but it seems authentic to me - also the fact that this is China focused news paper.

Sir, 42 JF-17s signed for 800Mln was a public news, with agreements signed between representatives and stuff like that. This 36 FC-20 deal has not been signed nor any official confirmation. Its based on a rumor, the only thing confirm is that PAF has given consent for acquiring the fighter, for how much and what is involved, that is not clear. So you may be taking the 40Mln figure, i am not.

Plus, the PAF ACM is on record of having said that price negotiations for FC-20 are still being held and details yet not known. You can Google it up and see the statement for itself. Here let me help you with that, see his interview to JDW and financial negotiations yet to happen.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...r-suleman-pakistan-air-force-chief-air-s.html

Here, plz view post#567 by pshamim Sb, who said China is asking for 40Mln for FC-20, while Pakistan is saying 25Mln. pshamim Sb is a very reliable source, rather a very very reliable source when it comes to PAF. He said this in March of this year, thus negotiations on price going on and we have yet to see the final figure. If Pakistan is asking for 25Mln, it would mean it knows what the real price for it is, while China may be asking for 40Mln for other reasons.

Post#567
J10/FC-20 and PAF doctrine

Having said that difference is more than 20 million dollars. If you say that 20 million a difference is for the engine difference, composite material and R&D expenses and profit - apologies - but i wont buy that. If i were a user i would take two JF17's for one J10 anyday if that were the only differences.

Also please note that 40 million is a price for PAF -- after bargaining . You can safely assume that this is a special frienship price for Pakistan (just like we had our su30's and mig 29's from Russia) and that to other countries Chinese would definetly try to sell it a higher price than this.

I believe at this point and as per my above clarification, it is premature to say what the real price is and what is not, only final deal may tell, which that even may not be the true one for Pakistan. Inside price may be something else, for the world it would be something else, for obvious reasons.

And for comparison at this stage, plzzz compare the prices of 28Mln as per the CAF divisional commander and PAF JF-17 at 19 Mln, not the 40Mln with no official source to support it. The 28Mln & 19Mln are backed up by official or much reliable sources at this stage of time.

And China asking for 40Mln would be most probably to give a message to the world that it is over now with making cheap planes, a 40Mln price tag would suggest quality too.

Having said that...it seems to me -- JF17 is not a threat to Mig29 ..but a threat to both J10 and Mig 29 ...now why would chinese do that ? hmmm..

Plzzz Sir, not you atleast.

Whether JF-17, J-10 or Mig-29, the final decision would be based on the operator's specifications, pocket and requirements.

If an operator neds JF-17 which fulfills all its requirements, it will go for it, if someone is satisfied with J-10 or Mig-29, they will go for that.

Air forces can even make the hi-lo mix as PAF is making, F-16/FC-20s for its hi end, while JF-17s for its lo end.

In the end, the operator will choose based on what it suits its needs best, what is its operational/threat perception requirements and what it can afford.

JF-17 is a light fighter, made for air forces who want a light fighter in their operational requirements and want to replace their light fighters with as little cash to spend with something generations ahead.

J-10 & Mig-29 are medium weight fighter aircraft, those who are in need of these beasts, will go for them.

Those who want both, will go for both, JF-17s & J-10/Mig-29s.

 

[Super Falcon]

well i think it is defiantley better than old mig 29 first of all big difference is it is in small size and have better manuverability in skies over mig 29 which count most only difference is it is single engine to me but it is not superior to f 16