JF-17 "Extremely close" to the MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan

[INDIAISM]

Then why not replace Mig 21 with Mig 29 as Mig29 is leagues ahead of JFT.....why JFT??

sir its all about the doctrine tht every airforce follows...........i mean india wll not buy su 30mki to replace their mig 21 fleet........

 

[Pk_Thunder]

c'mon folks. and not Its a sales comparison a technical comparison and fairly accurate. Its like comparing a Honda City(Mig) and a Hyundai Accent(Thunder). The Honda has been around longer and has more history and a little more power and top speed. Hyundai on the other hand is more recent, perception of slightly lower quality and slightly weaker power train but a significant cost save.

Now someone planning to do a fast and furious, may not even look at the Hyundai, but for a regular Office commuter, it does as good a job as a Honda. And with a price tag that is 30% cheaper, is a great bargain.

So you see, it depends all on what You want to use it for. A product in itself doesnt mean a thing in terms of how good or bad it is, unless evaluated against a need for which it is procured.

And sale comparison occurs between two equally efficient products.

 

[WAQAS119]

c'mon folks. Its a sales comparison and not a technical comparison and fairly accurate. Its like comparing a Honda City(Mig) and a Hyundai Accent(Thunder). The Honda has been around longer and has more history and a little more power and top speed. Hyundai on the other hand is more recent, perception of slightly lower quality and slightly weaker power train but a significant cost save.

Now someone planning to do a fast and furious, may not even look at the Hyundai, but for a regular Office commuter, it does as good a job as a Honda. And with a price tag that is 30% cheaper, is a great bargain.

So you see, it depends all on what You want to use it for. A product in itself doesnt mean a thing in terms of how good or bad it is, unless evaluated against a need for which it is procured.

Nah! Wrong example. In your scenario cars are just for personal use. What if you need a car to counter your competitors car, lets say in a race? Our scenario is of defence, where a country not just use a jet but uses it against enemy's jet. In defence scenario, their is no room for error. Everything needs to be perfect.
Thus if Egypt and many other nations are considering JFT to be used for their defence then their must be somthing in it, which Russians seems to have picked but Indians are in denial.

JFT will surly bring flexibility and versatility in their defence at low cost.

 

[Pk_Thunder]

o.k do u think tht jf 17 is better then their F-16's..............i mean they can evn go for more f-16's or miraage 2000

That is what we are asking you indians,if egypt had the option of acquiring f16,mirage or mig29,why they have decided to go for the jf17s? ....the answer is simple mate....its a cost effective package with relatively same capable platform in performance.

 

[karan.1970]

And sale comparison occurs between two equally efficient products.

True.. There are a lot of doctrines where JF 17 would be as effective as a Mig 29. In certain others (where numerical superiority is the base), it will be even better than Mig 29. Similarly there will be strategies where Mig 29 will come out on top.

Its not just the plane, but how it is used as a part of strategy that defines how effective it is..

 

[Donatello]

they already have f-16's{around 200} and miraage 2000 in their inventory
so i think at present they require a point defence interceptor which can replace their aging fleet of mig 21 & j-7 .............and i think jf 17 seems to b a perfect bet for that.......but that doesn't means jf 17 is close to Mig 29....................its just tht jf17 fits to their doctrine......

Just look at this guy's username and you will know what i mean.....

 

[Dazzler]

Yeah PAF made a huge blunder replacing A-5s with JF-17.

Also include venerable twin engine F-6 with single engine "Inferior" F 7pg...lol

 

[TaimiKhan]

o.k do u think tht jf 17 is better then their F-16's..............i mean they can evn go for more f-16's or miraage 2000

Why dragging in F-16 ??

Can't you guys think of anything else ??

How about Egypt getting the power on what to get with the Thunder, western, Chinese or european and make it into something superior version for themselves ?? Which they may lack in Mig-29s.

Customization as per the user.

Isn't this gonna make more attractive to Egyptians when compared to the Russian jet.

As said before, why you guys have to see just with radar range, engines or payload or mileage.

These are the things which we are trying to talk about, doctrine suitability, customization through which it can make JF-17 more superior in avionics section compared to Mig-29s, independence from being dependent on the Russians, stuff like that.

Why can't you guys talk on these aspects, rather then bringing in F-16s, radar range and other idiotic stuff.

Who knows the Egyptian Thunder version is even superior to the current specifications of Thunder, and get a package through which it can survive longer in war compared to other platforms.

 

[karan.1970]

Nah! Wrong example. In your scenario cars are just for personal use. What if you need a car to counter your competitors car, lets say in a race? Our scenario is of defence, where a country not just use a jet but uses it against enemy's jet. In defence scenario, their is no room for error. Everything needs to be perfect.
Thus if Egypt and many other nations are considering JFT to be used for their defence then their must be somthing in it, which Russians seems to have picked but Indians are in denial.

JFT will surly bring flexibility and versatility in their defence at low cost.

The example is to show that its the application of the product to a need that defines its effectiveness. Whether its combat or a commute to work.

Never debated that JF 17 does not have something in it. Its a good product and next 4-5 years will allow us all to see its entitlement.

 

[TaimiKhan]

True.. There are a lot of doctrines where JF 17 would be as effective as a Mig 29. In certain others (where numerical superiority is the base), it will be even better than Mig 29. Similarly there will be strategies where Mig 29 will come out on top.

Its not just the plane, but how it is used as a part of strategy that defines how effective it is..

At last some sense by our friends.

May be at last the thread would not have to be closed.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Why are we still doing plane on plane comparisons still???

An air force selects a plane not just over the performance but also over its price, user friendliness, weapons package, and possibility of sanctions, etc. The JF-17 costs about 1/3 as much as the F-16 C/D but offers 80% of the F-16's performance. For me, that is a good deal, especially considering the upgrade potentials of the JF-17!

 

[linkinpark]

Where are the counter claims, the only claim i have heard from our Indian friends is that the MIG 29 is superior because it houses 2 engines compared to JF17 which houses one. If this is the logic my Indian friends will use, their is pretty much no point of debating. My suggestion is that please go through the JF17 thread and learn more about the capabilities of this plane instead of posting horse sh**.

JF17's avionics are comparable to F16 Block 40's, features a Multi Dopple Radar, TWR 1.1, more maneuverable but a little but less agile than the Block 15 which is the most maneuverable and agile out of the entire F16 series. The plane's worth $20 million, not bad if you ask me for the capabilities it is offering. It has consistently hammered the F16 in close dog fights, an area which the F16 is considered the master off. Also i don't think i need to remind you that pilots who have flown the F16 and MIG29 find the F16 to be a better aircraft overall. If my memory serves me correct; everytime the F16 has gone up against the MIG29 in combat, it has emerged victorious.

First let me start with Thrust/weight ratio as it is important for the maneuverability of the aircraft. Mig-29 has T/W of 1.09 which make it capable of doing extreme maneuvers like vertical loops, pulling vertical Gs while T/W of JF-17 is around 0.95 or so making its T/W less than critical and render it capable of doing extreme maneuvers like Mig-29. These maneuvers are very important for close-combat scenarios or when it has to evade enemy missiles or missile lock.

MiG-29 FULCRUM
FC-1 / JF-17 Thunder


Mig-29 SMT also has latest avionics as any other latest 4G aircraft. Zhuk-ME radar on Mig-29 provides a range of 120km vs Klj-7 radar of JF-17 for a 5m2 target. Mig-29 also has latest and comparable avionics like IRST, HMS, HOTAS, FCS, ECMs etc.

Mig-29 has
high payload capacity - 4200kg vs 3600 kg of JF-17
high maximum speed - Mach 2.25 vs Mach 1.8 of JF-17
high-G - 9G vs 8G of JF-17

I have also posted two videos to prove the exceptional maneuverability of Mig-29 which JF-17 is not capable of or not shown so far.

And Mig-29 has the versatility to fire a number of combination of russian weapons while the current JF-17 is integrated with only a handful of weapons.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/Sv8xaNPr-RI/AAAAAAAABN8/bSXJ_J_bTCw/s1600/MiG-29UPG-2.jpg

 

[INDIAISM]

self-deleted

 

[Dazzler]

I am going to say something that maybe i shouldn't but to shut some members once and for all...

The actual RCS of JFT is Classified but what i know, it is MUCH less than even the Falcons and goes in mere fractions! To such an extent that during simulated engagements, Falcon pilots were having difficulty to trace it ! The biggest contribution to this is the DSI intake which reduces the RCS to a great extent. About the radar, KLJ-7 is based on RP-35 zhemchug series which itself was specifically made as a high performance, multirole radar for Mig-35. Though still mechanical pulse doppler, it is one hell of a radar that includes technologies from IAFs favorite ELAT 2032 and RP-35s joined by Chinese expertise in electronics and PCB, micro processors. Keep under estimating this fighter folks, it will benefit us. On the topic, MIG-29 versions before the SMT are inferior to JFT in terms of avionics, radar, weapon and sensor fusion. This is a reality that India at the moment DOES NOT have any SMTS and till they do, theirs are inferior to JFT. Bitter pill to swallow for them but i trust my source a lot.

 

[karan.1970]

I am going to say something that maybe i shouldn't but to shut some members once and for all...

The actual RCS of JFT is Classified but what i know, it is MUCH less than even the Falcons and goes in mere fractions! To such an extent that during simulated engagements, Falcon pilots were having difficulty to trace it ! The biggest contribution to this is the DSI intake which reduces the RCS to a great extent. About the radar, KLJ-7 is based on RP-35 zhemchug series which itself was specifically made as a high performance, multirole radar for Mig-35. Though still mechanical pulse doppler, it is one hell of a radar that includes technologies from IAFs favorite ELAT 2032 and RP-35s joined by Chinese expertise in electronics and PCB, micro processors. Keep under estimating this fighter folks, it will benefit us. On the topic, MIG-29 versions before the SMT are inferior to JFT in terms of avionics, radar, weapon and sensor fusion. This is a reality that India at the moment DOES NOT have any SMTS and till they do, theirs are inferior to JFT. Bitter pill to swallow for them but i trust my source a lot.

Looks like Taimi was wrong. The thread is again straying into nonsense arena