JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[FuturePAF]

Dear member two points required some clarification.

1- How much growler like platform shall be useful to jam or even decrease targeting range of AESA radar of Rafale.

2- Considering F16 limited role in PAF which is mainly Air defense the ground attack missiles are not provided/released to PAF so at least F16s cannot replace Mirages in ground attack role.(Even JF17 has relatively shorter combat radius)

Cant say for sure how effective a growler variant of the JF-17 will be but the E/A-18G Growler carried the AGM-88E (~150 km range) missile to take on advanced air defense, like the S-400.

so it will probably have to be good enough to get within that launch window to take out the enemies search and targeting radar. Based on this really rough estimate, the Growler could probably degrade enemy radar by over 50% at least (take with with a big grain of salt, as this is anyone’s guess). In Air tot air it might be just enough to make a standard F-16 (non-AESA) competitive with a Rafales if the EW aircraft is flying along with it. Now it comes down to the effectiveness of the jammers on the Growler variant of the Jf-17.

This might be the reason PAF is now interested in the J-11BG; a platform that can be made into a dedicated Jammer, and long range naval air defense and strike platform.

Navy Orders Development Of New Air Defense Blasting Missile That Will Fit Inside F-35

The advanced anti-radiation missile could drastically open up the F-35's ability to crush enemy air defense networks.

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An inside look at how 'Havoc' turns U.S. Navy EA-18G crews into wizards of the invisible art of electronic warfare.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Former is air superiority. Latter is MMRCA(medium multi role). JF17 is borderline Medium weight. I'd say its 85% close to being a medium weight. İt's slotted way above the average trainer like M346 or Hawk 2 or L39 etc. KA50 golden eagle is kinda in a similar class.

F-15/F-16

Instead of J-10CE wouldn't it would be better use of resources if PAF spent the same money on Viper upgrades for it's F-16 fleet, surely they would start getting impact from wear and tear again soon and form a sizeable part of the fleet which PAF would like to keep flying.

U.S willingness to allow this would be a big what if. Otherwise it's like maan na maan me tera mehmaan.

 

[Trailer23]

I dont understand why people take jf17 block 3 as a rafale counter which it certainly is not. Its a really great fighter best in its own class which is lightweight. But it is no counter to rafale and shouldn't ne pitched as one. Yes all that pl15 and aesa is good but lets be realistic its great to counter mig29s, mirrage2000s, bison and su30mki and will surely score many kills in this category but not to rafale which is a beautiful yet lethal jet. In my opinion PAF knows that rafale is a threat and probably dont take jf17 block 3 as a rafale counter. PAF knows a handful block52s aren't enough. So they might be looking at a possible acquisition.
2. To counter rafale we need a different fighter. F-16s are good but we ain't gonna get them. The best possible option is j-10CE. Now idk how good j-10C is but looks like only way to go or wait till project azm matures.

You hit the nail on that one beautifully.

I too have made the exact argument in the past - but there are those whom have defended the Block III.

And the PL-15 better be worth the buck if the Chinese are twisting our arm to buy an entire jet just to get a Chinese version of an Aim-120D*.

*That is if its in the same category.

....the presence of 36 Rafale jets and 48 or 49 upgraded Mirage-5

Plus the order of 21 MiG-29's coming in from Russia.

I gotta say, we've passed the 500-oages mark and still only seen two images of the Test Block III.

Bit childish, but now i'm gettin' a bit impatient with its progress.

 

[ziaulislam]

Why we should need a new 4+ gen heavyweight or mediumweight fighger aircraft?

Why JF-17 Block 3 cannot be pitched against Rafale or any 4+ gen aircraft?

Why a lightweight fighter cannot take down a heavyweight fighter aircraft?

The advantages which Rafale has over JF-17 Block 3, are its payload capacity and max combat range.

However all other parameters, onboard weaponry and EW systems can be matched with JF-17 Block 3.

Capabilities of first detection, potency of BVR AAMS and pilot's response will determine the outcome of this battle between Rafale and JF-17 Block 3.

In fact, if the capabilities and upgradation mentioned in Shahid Raza's tweet regarding JF-17 Block 3 are correct, then I can safely bet that it can be pitched against any world class fighter jet with definite positive outcome if flown by an experienced PAF pilot.

No they dont.
For example
Thunder III doesnt has 360 MAWS(i think it only has 2 vs appox 6), or a decoy, or a strong self protection suit(rd93 simply wont have enough power). It also doesnt has an IRST.

There are several other parameters

 

[jupiter2007]

One should look for capabilities of both Rafale and JF17 block 3 for considering them serious rivals. One should check or clarify following points.

1- PL-15 Vs EW suit/Spectra of Rafale
2- RCS of JF17 block 3 Vs Rafale RCS.
3 Defensive capabilities of JF17 vs Meteor.

Considering the general views about difficulties to jam AESA radar perhaps role of electronic warfare assets shall be limited unlike Indo Pak latest skirmish.

Pakistan can test Block3 against Qatar Rafale.

 

[FuturePAF]

Pakistan can test Block3 against Qatar Rafale.

That would be ideal, but the frenchies will probably try to block that somehow. Equally you have to be careful not to test the full capabilities of the KLJ-7A against the Rafael, as it’s Spectra EW will learn the signature, and you can bet the frenchies will sell that to the Indians. Best to go in with the JF-17 radar off, but it’s EW and IRST systems on, to see what signatures it can pick up.

 

[HRK]

1. Do you think, taking cost into account, would (1.5 or 2 to 1) block 3s vs Rafael pay off for the PAF, basically leverage numbers vs the Rafael, rather then bring new type into service,

well there is not a straight answer to this question so I will only state my understanding which is based on the information available in open source till now but it may in future prove totally false, therefore before to indulge myself into this I think we must try to answer first what new capabilities Rafale is bringing int his region

So we know that Rafale is introducing following capabilities in South Asia

- Operational AESA RADAR in fighter jet [GaAS Based AESA Radar]

- Integrated AESA based EW suit

- Long range BVR [Meteor missile] as compare to AIM-120C

- A very Decent Air to ground Strike Package.

Now for JF-17 Blk-III we know

- It will also have AESA radar [GaN based AESA radra]

- It will also have Integrated AESA based EW suit.

- It will have PL-15 missile which even IF do not have longer range then Meteor then it must be equal to Meteor in range, this would level the field in BVR domain, [Note: though it is widely believe PL-15 have longer range than Meteor Missile]

- Whole of JF-17 series have a very decent strike package in terms of variety of air to ground and air to sea weapons but lacks in terms of limited pay load capacity.

AESA RADAR

Now as we know no two AESA radar from 2 different vendors are same but even then IF we consider every thing other then known things b/w RBE2-AESA and unknown AESA radar of JF-17 are on par than we know

- GaN based modules are consider better than GaAS based AESA Radar Modules and as mention above JF-17 have GaN based AESA Radar

- GaN based AESA radar not necessarily but generally offer better ranges than GaAS based radars but this feature is related to availability of power to AESA radar and its management.

- Another feature which most people ignore is the processing power as this capability effects the capability of simultaneously Detection, Tracking and Engagement capability of RADAR here declared number of simultaneous detection of multiple targets of RBE2-AESA is

- Detection of 40 targets​

- Tracking of 8 priority targets​

- Simultaneous engagement of 4 targets ​

As of now these capabilities for the AESA radar of JF-17 are not are not known publicly so we could not comment on this

EW suit:

Again here both JF-17 and Rafle will have integrated AESA based EW suit but again we do not have much information about these system in public domain and whatever information is available about SPECTRA is related to its performance against PD RADAR, so we can only say that whichever Jet will have
- Better processing power
- Better Threat Library
- Better Power Management

is likely to dominate the other jet on one on one grounds but we know in future war no jet will duel with each other on one on one grounds but as a part of a package which will represent EW systems of both Air forces, so again it will be difficult to comment.

As I have already commented about BVR missiles therefore would skip it and would only comment about Strike package

Considering over all scenario currently IAF have limited air to ground capability in terms of Range of their SOW weapons, but it have long range platforms such as Su-30 and Rafale jets, with Rafale jets IAF have option of hammer series from France and could integrate Spice series from Israel as well but the more important thing is with Rafale deal the IAF has acquired storm shadow missile which give IAF capability to strike 250-290 km from the point of release previously IAF was lacking this capability their program of integrating of Brahamous missile with Su-30 was there but due to limited number of jets it was not truly operational as it requir modification of Su-30 Air frame, so with Storm shadow India for the first time acquired the true SOW capability.

Now with heavy load carrying capability Rafale could carry 2 Storm Shadow missiles while Mirage-5 jets of IAF even now could carry multiple 60 km and 120 Km SOW weapons, same is the case with Rafale jets.

Here JF-17 with limited pay load capacity as compare to Rafale could carry limited SOW weapons here we need to keep in mind due to difference of geographical size of India and Pakistan and Larger size of Indian forces PAF not only need Range but Numbers of Weapons with strike package to effectively engage targets in India, while due to limited depth of Pakistan India does not have a need to have SOW missiles longer then 300-400 Km.

Now these requirements expose the limitations of NOT ONLY JF-17 in terms Payload and Range limitation of PAF as well.

Now here look at the strike platform of PAF the Mirage jets which could carry only ONE RA'AD missile while could carry two H-2 or H-4 weapon but require another dual seat Mirage to guide the H-2 or H-4 weapon.

As far as JF-17 in strike role is concern currently only know capabilities are limited upto 280-290 KM from the point of release but in terms of capability to carry the number of SOW weapon it has only shown capability to carry

- 2 REK with 120 km range
- 2 C-802 with 180-250 Km range
- 2 CM-400 AKG upto 250 Km range

and status of integration of RA'AD with JF-17 is still not known, this thing will compensate the issue related to striking range.

Now as you suggested in your post to increase the number of JF-17 as compare to Rafale jets in that case IF

increase the production of jet with the ratio of 1.5 to 36 Rafale jet then

36 Rafale Jet x 1.5 (JF-17 blk-III) = 54 JF-17 Blk-III jets are required while 48 Mirage-5 jets with strike capability are still unanswered so to match these numbers we need at least same number of JF-17 which mean we would require at least
54 JF-17 (blk-III to match Rafale jets)
48 JF-17 (to match the numbers of mirage-5 jets)
102 JF-17

Now note this 102 number in mind which would be required to match the strike capability in terms of number of platforms, 102 JF-17 would be 55% of JF-17 total plan fleet of 184 JF-17 (all blocks included).

IF we calculate on the suggested ration of 2 JF-17 against 1 Rafale, keeping other factors same then the number would increase up to 120 JF-17 out of 184 JF-17 this will be roughly equivalent to 65% of the JF-17 fleet

Now what IF IAF buy another batch of 36 Rafale Jets .... ??? you could calculate it by your own.

But even after doing all these would we attain the parity in striking capability with India ..... ???? for this you should look how many hammer bombs Rafale could carry and how many Mirage-5 could carry

or
2. The only logical answer to the Rafael is the J10CE or whichever version, irrespective of per unit and associated costs.

Personally I think even J-10 does not satisfactorily answer our need in the domain of Air strike, but would be helpful the reduce the gape to some extent

 

[mingle]

well there is not a straight answer to this question so I will only state my understanding which is based on the information available in open source till now but it may in future prove totally false, therefore before to indulge myself into this I think we must try to answer first what new capabilities Rafale is bringing int his region

So we know that Rafale is introducing following capabilities in South Asia

- Operational AESA RADAR in fighter jet [GaAS Based AESA Radar]

- Integrated AESA based EW suit

- Long range BVR [Meteor missile] as compare to AIM-120C

- A very Decent Air to ground Strike Package.

Now for JF-17 Blk-III we know

- It will also have AESA radar [GaN based AESA radra]

- It will also have Integrated AESA based EW suit.

- It will have PL-15 missile which even IF do not have longer range then Meteor then it must be equal to Meteor in range, this would level the field in BVR domain, [Note: though it is widely believe PL-15 have longer range than Meteor Missile]

- Whole of JF-17 series have a very decent strike package in terms of variety of air to ground and air to sea weapons but lacks in terms of limited pay load capacity.

AESA RADAR

Now as we know no two AESA radar from 2 different vendors are same but even then IF we consider every thing other then known things b/w RBE2-AESA and unknown AESA radar of JF-17 are on par than we know

- GaN based modules are consider better than GaAS based AESA Radar Modules and as mention above JF-17 have GaN based AESA Radar

- GaN based AESA radar not necessarily but generally offer better ranges than GaAS based radars but this feature is related to availability of power to AESA radar and its management.

- Another feature which most people ignore is the processing power as this capability effects the capability of simultaneously Detection, Tracking and Engagement capability of RADAR here declared number of simultaneous detection of multiple targets of RBE2-AESA is

- Detection of 40 targets​

- Tracking of 8 priority targets​

- Simultaneous engagement of 4 targets ​

As of now these capabilities for the AESA radar of JF-17 are not are not known publicly so we could not comment on this

EW suit:

Again here both JF-17 and Rafle will have integrated AESA based EW suit but again we do not have much information about these system in public domain and whatever information is available about SPECTRA is related to its performance against PD RADAR, so we can only say that whichever Jet will have
- Better processing power
- Better Threat Library
- Better Power Management

is likely to dominate the other jet on one on one grounds but we know in future war no jet will duel with each other on one on one grounds but as a part of a package which will represent EW systems of both Air forces, so again it will be difficult to comment.

As I have already commented about BVR missiles therefore would skip it and would only comment about Strike package

Considering over all scenario currently IAF have limited air to ground capability in terms of Range of their SOW weapons, but it have long range platforms such as Su-30 and Rafale jets, with Rafale jets IAF have option of hammer series from France and could integrate Spice series from Israel as well but the more important thing is with Rafale deal the IAF has acquired storm shadow missile which give IAF capability to strike 250-290 km from the point of release previously IAF was lacking this capability their program of integrating of Brahamous missile with Su-30 was there but due to limited number of jets it was not truly operational as it requir modification of Su-30 Air frame, so with Storm shadow India for the first time acquired the true SOW capability.

Now with heavy load carrying capability Rafale could carry 2 Storm Shadow missiles while Mirage-5 jets of IAF even now could carry multiple 60 km and 120 Km SOW weapons, same is the case with Rafale jets.

Here JF-17 with limited pay load capacity as compare to Rafale could carry limited SOW weapons here we need to keep in mind due to difference of geographical size of India and Pakistan and Larger size of Indian forces PAF not only need Range but Numbers of Weapons with strike package to effectively engage targets in India, while due to limited depth of Pakistan India does not have a need to have SOW missiles longer then 300-400 Km.

Now these requirements expose the limitations of NOT ONLY JF-17 in terms Payload and Range limitation of PAF as well.

Now here look at the strike platform of PAF the Mirage jets which could carry only ONE RA'AD missile while could carry two H-2 or H-4 weapon but require another dual seat Mirage to guide the H-2 or H-4 weapon.

As far as JF-17 in strike role is concern currently only know capabilities are limited upto 280-290 KM from the point of release but in terms of capability to carry the number of SOW weapon it has only shown capability to carry

- 2 REK with 120 km range
- 2 C-802 with 180-250 Km range
- 2 CM-400 AKG upto 250 Km range

and status of integration of RA'AD with JF-17 is still not known, this thing will compensate the issue related to striking range.

Now as you suggested in your post to increase the number of JF-17 as compare to Rafale jets in that case IF

increase the production of jet with the ratio of 1.5 to 36 Rafale jet then

36 Rafale Jet x 1.5 (JF-17 blk-III) = 54 JF-17 Blk-III jets are required while 48 Mirage-5 jets with strike capability are still unanswered so to match these numbers we need at least same number of JF-17 which mean we would require at least
54 JF-17 (blk-III to match Rafale jets)
48 JF-17 (to match the numbers of mirage-5 jets)
102 JF-17

Now note this 102 number in mind which would be required to match the strike capability in terms of number of platforms, 102 JF-17 would be 55% of JF-17 total plan fleet of 184 JF-17 (all blocks included).

IF we calculate on the suggested ration of 2 JF-17 against 1 Rafale, keeping other factors same then the number would increase up to 120 JF-17 out of 184 JF-17 this will be roughly equivalent to 65% of the JF-17 fleet

Now what IF IAF buy another batch of 36 Rafale Jets .... ??? you could calculate it by your own.

But even after doing all these would we attain the parity in striking capability with India ..... ???? for this you should look how many hammer bombs Rafale could carry and how many Mirage-5 could carry


Personally I think even J-10 does not satisfactorily answer our need in the domain of Air strike, but would be helpful the reduce the gape to some extent

We need F15EX if US agree with 35 jets along more used vipers with V upgrades

 

[HRK]

We need F15EX if US agree

short answer NO

 

[Xone]

We need LCA to confront rafale if not JF-17b3? Pakistan is purchasing j10c along with B3. The purpose is to fill the gap created by denial of new F16. B3 is the mainstay to break Rafale may be not initially but in the final. Why j10c ? one solution for the both country for immediate answer. Pakistan has to buy more than100 j10c if we failed to find rafale answer with block3. while is not viable.

 

[mingle]

short answer NO

J10 is out of league then western only heavy western option is EF or F15 EX there are alot surplus F15 eagles

 

[Marker]

One should look for capabilities of both Rafale and JF17 block 3 for considering them serious rivals. One should check or clarify following points.

1- PL-15 Vs EW suit/Spectra of Rafale
2- RCS of JF17 block 3 Vs Rafale RCS.
3 Defensive capabilities of JF17 vs Meteor.

Considering the general views about difficulties to jam AESA radar perhaps role of electronic warfare assets shall be limited unlike Indo Pak latest skirmish.

According to PAF leadership, JF-17 Block 3 is being loaded with various avionics, EW and ECM technologies and weapon packages to counter IAF threat including Rafale, Su 30MKI, Mirage 2000 and Mig-29.

Neither Rafale nor JF-17 Block 3 were pitched in actual battlefield ditching PL-15 or Meteor.

However, PAF pilots have the experience of flying and pitching against Rafale during various International exercises.

These pilots are the first and foremost important customers and users of JF-17 Block 3.

The integration and trial phase of JF-17 Block 3 is very crucial. It is being assisted and done by the experienced pilots.

JF-17 being smaller size has a low RCS value. According to manufacturers, more composite material was used on JF-17 Block 3, hence its RCS will be much lower than the older JF-17s. Furthermore, there are other ways available to PAF to reduce RCS and IR emission to minimal!!!!!!

Chinese KLJ-7A AESA radar has a range of 170 km whereas French Thales RBE2 AA AESA radar has range between 120 to 140 km for RCS value of 3 square meter target.
https://www.aviationtoday.com/2009/06/01/serious-squall/#:~:text=In air-to-air mode,air-to-air missiles.

Furthermore, PAF pilots are better tacticians than their counterparts.

And lastly do not forget PAF has "force multipliers".

 

[m52k85]

@JamD & @kursed



Let's speculate a bit more about PL-15, J-10 and Block-3.



The Chinese and Pakistani did their training exercises in Bholari. What happened to 19th Squadron Sherdil F-16's? They silently disappeared from bholari while chinese were there with their most advanced aerial assets and even americans didn't object which means F-16 squadron has been realocated from bholari airbase



The Chinese would have been resistant to share PL-15 because they dont want the Americans anywhere near PL-15. They'd have wanted a dedicated airbase where JF-17 block 3 critical chinese tech and PL-15 can be stored exclusively and away from Americans. Pakistan for this very reason specifically chose Bholari airbase to host Chinese so that they can come and inspect it personally and let PAF store they Chinese Tier 1 BVR missile

F-16s were temporarily relocated from Bholari until the end of Shaheen IX. And you’re right on your take.

I dont think bholari is shaping out to be the next home for the cutting edge in Jf-17, if Im following things right its actually Shehbaz, I believe the blk 52s have moved on. Last I checked the ADF variants didnt require the stringent checks associated with blk 52s (and MLUs).

The logic of the chinese not wanting Americans anywhere near pl-15 makes sense and if the above is true then we see concrete steps to remedy that. However, this does not answer why we still need the J-10s if Pl-15 is coming with blk-3 (or even blk-2s). The answer could lie in what proportion of Pl-15s potential can each of the three platforms exploit (blk-2, blk-3 and J-10s). The Chinese could simply be playing their part to ensure their top missile comes out shining when it is used in anger for the first time.

P.S. lets not doubt the intention of our friends, China has never treated us like murica has.

 

[Shabi1]

Former is air superiority. Latter is MMRCA(medium multi role). JF17 is borderline Medium weight. I'd say its 85% close to being a medium weight. İt's slotted way above the average trainer like M346 or Hawk 2 or L39 etc. KA50 golden eagle is kinda in a similar class.


U.S willingness to allow this would be a big what if. Otherwise it's like maan na maan me tera mehmaan.

We had same thoughts on release of Blk-52s and no one thought we would get Aim-120Cs. The checks US had placed for the Blk-52 technology (specifically DRFM) protection have been very satisfactory for them so precedent is there. AIM-120D is no longer their premium missile they are shifting to AIM-260
Issue is funding, US owes Pakistan reimbursement which Trump didnt want to pay, Pakistan doesnt want to buy unless any acquisition is offset by those reimbursements. If there is willingness to resolve the matter a compromise can be done.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

We had same thoughts on release of Blk-52s and no one thought we would get Aim-120Cs. The checks US had placed for the Blk-52 technology (specifically DRFM) protection have been very satisfactory for them so precedent is there. AIM-120D is no longer their premium missile they are shifting to AIM-260
Issue is funding, US owes Pakistan reimbursement which it doesnt want to buy, Pakistan doesnt want to buy unless any acquisition is offset buy those reimbursements.

Yar ye to pehle bolna chahiye tha na. Musharaf should have asked the Americans for duties if they wanted to use our land for Nato supply transit. Uss waqt Musharaf ne jhuk kar kaha "Jahan pana tussi great ho toffu qabul karo". Now we don't have the window of oppurtunity. Never will. Meanwhile, their heavy truck traffic has completely devastated G.T Road. Especially the North Punjab(Potohar) sections that go from the Salt Ranges/Jhelum to Talagang/Chakwal and onward to Mianwali and then Torkham entrance border. On this Punjab route for some reason Nato trucks take a detour through the back roads of Chakwal, Talagang, Mianwali and Dera Ismail Khan for some reason. I thought it strange.