JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[denel]

The west is not worried for no reason.
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/r...5/electronic-warfare-ew-radarjamming-aircraft

There is this company called Rohde and Schwarz which specializes in radio products for military uses too and is a premium vendor here. Had it felt a need to safeguard its 'technology secrets' it wouldnt be launching its website in chinese just to sell 'top notch technology' to china
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com.cn/so...rfare-overview_233140.html?rusprivacypolicy=0

Selling machinery; that too of jet engine technology that too to germany is not a joke, believe me!
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soc...hina-talks-sale-jet-engine-technology-germany

Had Daimler felt a need to safeguard its 'cutting edge engine technology' from china, it wouldnt sell its shares to BAIC and Geely to give them a seat at the board of directors
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...eely-as-top-shareholder-sources-idUSKBN1YJ08H

https://www.economist.com/business/2019/12/18/chinese-carmakers-may-soon-own-a-fifth-of-daimler

All this speaks volume of the level the Chinese industry is operating at! Its just a matter of time, all these pieces start coming together. It probably has already surpassed at some western products, the west would not be narrating this to you for sure! How Chinese products were in the past matter not that much at the pace the industry is multiplying its capabilities today. As of today, its hard to believe there exists a decade in technology difference in the chinese and western products!

I know Rhode and Shwartz too well; they are not the top EW provider; may be in Europe. I can tell you I worked on most latest chinese equipment 3 years back; it was no way good. Bogus specs all over the place.

 

[PakFactor]

I know Rhode and Shwartz too well; they are not the top EW provider; may be in Europe. I can tell you I worked on most latest chinese equipment 3 years back; it was no way good. Bogus specs all over the place.

Denel question what about their AAM like SD-10, PL-15 same issue their as well quality and tech wise? Would it be able to stand on its own in a high tech EW environment?

My concern now is if their EW isn’t up to the challenge how would their AAM fair.

 

[StormBreaker]

I know Rhode and Shwartz too well; they are not the top EW provider; may be in Europe. I can tell you I worked on most latest chinese equipment 3 years back; it was no way good. Bogus specs all over the place.

Bro, what’s update from denel Dynamics ?
Are they gonna be history with just A-Darter and R-Darter or plan anything in the class of PL-15/Meteor and ramjet powered ?

 

[denel]

Denzel question what about their AAM like SD-10, PL-15 same issue their as well quality and tech wise? Would it be able to stand on its own in a high tech EW environment?

Unfortunately, only true series of hardened tests in a very dense EW will show that; i dont have much exposure to their AAM side.

Bro, what’s update from denel Dynamics ?
Are they gonna be history with just A-Darter and R-Darter or plan anything in the class of PL-15/Meteor and ramjet powered ?

At this stage, there is too much political bigwigs bsing all over the organisation; if Brazil picks up on their Gripen orders, then we will see some more movement. There has been so much fallout from the bastard Guptas and ANC who were trying to break apart the organisation.

 

[StormBreaker]

Unfortunately, only true series of hardened tests in a very dense EW will show that; i dont have much exposure to their AAM side.


At this stage, there is too much political bigwigs bsing all over the organisation; if Brazil picks up on their Gripen orders, then we will see some more movement. There has been so much fallout from the bastard Guptas and ANC who were trying to break apart the organisation.

So that means denel is trying to survive hard in the biased AAMs industry.
Heavy R&D is the key buddy. The day Denel comes up with better solution than Meteor, denel will get a huge chunk of market share but what’s more important is that it will develop a certain level of respect in the market and eyes will be on them by existing and future customers for even better solutions !!!

Ohh, btw, isn’t Al-Tariq used by UAE and Saudis ?

 

[Shah_Deu]

I know Rhode and Shwartz too well; they are not the top EW provider

Well providing radio communication for EF Typhoon is no small feat for a company or is it?
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/c...-provide-radio-communications-for-eurofighter

Lockheed Martin has selected Rohde & Schwarz to supply its software-defined radio (SDR) for the latest F-16 block 70 aircraft. LM has overlooked many 'top' US EW companies to select R&S, speaks for itself, doesnt it?
https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/lockheed-rohde-schwarzs-sdr-f-16-block-70/

Providing the French naval forces with a truly secure broadband network designed for the transmission of data with different classification levels is not a small feat either, considering Thales, itself a french company, was also competing for the contract.
https://www.janes.com/article/87144/french-navy-awards-airbus-led-consortium-rifan-2-1-contract

EW is not a product itself. Many companies make the subsystems while the OEM integrates them all in one, I would never say Rohde and Schwarz is not a 'top' solutions provider. There is no award ceremony where to gauge whether one is a 'top' service provider or not. One gauges it on the basis of which products are based on the technology that company claims to excels at!

 

[denel]

So that means denel is trying to survive hard in the biased AAMs industry.
Heavy R&D is the key buddy. The day Denel comes up with better solution than Meteor, denel will get a huge chunk of market share but what’s more important is that it will develop a certain level of respect in the market and eyes will be on them by existing and future customers for even better solutions !!!

Ohh, btw, isn’t Al-Tariq used by UAE and Saudis ?

Yes, right now there is a lot of R&D work being done for UAE and Saudis; it is mostly on UAVs, SOWs and targetting systems as well as mine proof vehicles which are getting rebadged into what ever name they put on them.

 

[StormBreaker]

Yes, right now there is a lot of R&D work being done for UAE and Saudis; it is mostly on UAVs, SOWs and targetting systems as well as mine proof vehicles which are getting rebadged into what ever name they put on them.

So Does UAE intend to bring denel manpower to their recently created MINE defence science industry ?

 

[denel]

So Does UAE intend to bring denel manpower to their recently created MINE defence science industry ?

We are their backbone in all their ventures they are claiming. There are people seconded there and offshore components based here with R&D being done on this side as well as testing.

 

[StormBreaker]

We are their backbone in all their ventures they are claiming. There are people seconded there and offshore components based here with R&D being done on this side as well as testing.

As per your organization’s experience, how much eager are the engineers of UAE and KSA dedicated to learning new things and experience, like are they really serious to eventually do the designing and stuff themselves ?

 

[denel]

As per your organization’s experience, how much eager are the engineers of UAE and KSA dedicated to learning new things and experience, like are they really serious to eventually do the designing and stuff themselves ?

Find me an arab willing to pick up a screw or a lathe and I will give you an empire...
they want to manage but no brains.

 

[khanasifm]

Lerx on B and block 3 carry fuel ? So wing total should have gone up?? Hopefully by couple of hundred litres


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading-edge_extension

 

[PakFactor]

Find me an arab willing to pick up a screw or a lathe and I will give you an empire...
they want to manage but no brains.

Lol

Even in managing they horrible.

 

[StormBreaker]

Find me an arab willing to pick up a screw or a lathe and I will give you an empire...
they want to manage but no brains.

Hmm, i would put that blame to their education system especially in UAE and KSA. The education syllabus is really light during school and colleges and suddenly during university studies, it gets a jump, but the leap is not to the level of well-respected and recognized universities around the world. Secondly, another factor that comes to play is that they throughout their life, stay majorly in arabic instead of english hence the lack of attention during english lectures as they find it hard to concentrate and UNDERSTAND !!!

Ohh, sorry mods, forgot what thread we were in so topic derailed, @denel , for further discussion on the topic, lets migrate to another thread on arab defence forum

 

[blain2]

That doesn't give me a good feeling then; but I don't think we have much alternative right now Europe wouldn't see the Pakistanis' anything as they siding with the neighbor next door.

What other options we have, or just stay with the Chinese until it matures or something.

Please keep in mind that PAF has a pretty good relationship with Italians historically and increasingly with the Turks in the avionics arena. Secondly, with the EU in a state of disarray, most European countries with an aviation industry are willing to deal on a bilateral basis as long as there is money to be made. As such Pakistan has decent options however I would maintain the best would be to push Chinese to deliver on PAF's requirements. This will allow for the best level of customization for Pakistan (aside from maybe the Turkish option).

Chinese are also the most willing to invest in Pakistan's local avionics industry so there are long term advantages to be had versus going back to the same well (Western one) over and over with no ToT/strict end user restrictions (no mods etc.). As a result, our short term dependence has the potential to kill off the opportunity to grow the indigenous industry because once PAF has a solution purchased, the local options die off. Now sometimes we make the same argument with the Chinese equipment (with the refrain they aren't as good as the western options). Let's keep one thing in mind, NO country in the world aside from the US, is putting as much money into R&D and post-graduate level education focused on defense industry as China. This means what took decades to develop will be possible in years.

I am also not proposing that PAF should not do what it needs to for meeting its immediate needs. However there has to be a good balance here and discounting Chinese products, whose benefit in a synergistic and efficient employment can be significant, maybe counter-productive.

Lastly, the end goal for Pakistan is to take care of the avionics all by ourselves. It's a tall goal but achievable. This is increasingly important in an export-oriented environment with the country trying to sell JF-17 abroad. This means that Pakistan's specific requirements for avionics are fully customized for our own need without a second or a third country getting the same from China. Think F-35 and IAI (Israel Aeronautics) model because this is what the goal for PAC is with our own future aircraft.