Jawab dau

[Burger_King]

In no particular order, below is what army high command has claimed in recent times:

1. Claim: army is neutral. Evidence: some journalists and politicians that have criticised the actions of army h.c, especially kurtooths of Mir Bajwa, have ended up in the slammer without due process. Those arrested claim they have been tortured and physical evidence and manner of arrest appears to back their claims. Since army says it is neutral, i.e. it has stopped exercising control over civilian functions, the blame for illegal arrest lies with government whose officials, on and off the record, claim they have nothing to do with the arrest. So who are the khilai mukhlook who are ordering the arrest of army critics? Why does not high command come on record and say they have nothing to do with these unlawful arrests? And more worryingly, if no institutions is behind these arrests, then, have foreigners taken control of law enforcement agencies? Hounding of patriotic elements is something only a hostile power would do. And a related point: fooking judges get paid a crap load of cash. Will they even justify a tiny portion of their salary by doing the job they are paid to do?

2. Claim: In dangerous times, army proactively provides security for Pakistan. Evidence: Pakistan's most prominent and popular leader and ex-PM has been targeted by a gunman or gunmen. Any self respecting country provides security to ex-head of government. Attack on IK is a threat to security of Pak - army's sacred mission. Why should heads not roll over this security failure? Likewise, inability to secure PM's residence as well as means of communication is a security breach of the highest degree. Should leadership not be held accountable for this unforgivable failure?

3. Claim: their is no threat to journalist that have been critical of army in recent times. This point is also tied to claim 1 above. Evidence: Prominent journalists that have presented a "nationalist" viewpoint have had to run for the hills while ghaddaar channels like Geo are now getting army funding. DG ISI and DG ISPR held an unprecedented press conference at the exact moment of Arshad Sharif's funeral. According to Islamic ethics, we don't even disrespect the dead of the enemy. Yet the army of Islamic Republic cannot accord respect to a prominent journalist who was close to army circles. Besides, press conference, due to its optics, has raised serious question on army's culpability. Enemies of Pakistan have always claimed army is a rogue institution. HC has shown itself to be dumb beyond belief by acting in a manner which gives so much ammunition to its enemies. There will a a time when high command will be filled with patriot generals. But their actions will still be seen as stained due to the kurtooths of current group.

4. Claim: Political instability poses no threat to Pakistan's salamati because army leadership is chaukanna. Evidence: 1971 when India took advantage of political instability to attack Pakistan with active connivance of one of the parties. On the surface situation is different today because Pak has nuclear weapons and there is no Mukhti Bahini. Scratch the surface and all is not what it appears to be. I have documented obvious security failures in point number 2. Can we trust this lot to hide details of nuclear program when they cant fullfill basic part of their job? We know Sam is dead set against Pak nuclear program. We also know that COAS and head of ISI spent a week in DC. What was discussed in these meetings? Americans are hesitant to offer a free cup of coffee to their guest. Why were they hosting senior officials including foreign minister for a week and more? And will Americans have any hesitation in passing details of our nuclear program to our enemy. Additionally, I would not trust our ghaddar leaders like Altaf Bhai, Zardari and Sharifs to side with Indians if that is where their interest lie.

It pains me to raise these points since I am not a "liberal" who believes that army should have no say in governance. Given our location, our hostile neighbours, our ghadaar political class and our geedarh awam, it will be a complete disaster if army is neutered. But as things stand, centre cannot hold.

 

[SIPRA]

Their all tall claims are false. They are nothing more than a gang of criminals and thugs.

 

[peagle]

In no particular order, below is what army high command has claimed in recent times:

1. Claim: army is neutral. Evidence: some journalists and politicians that have criticised the actions of army h.c, especially kurtooths of Mir Bajwa, have ended up in the slammer without due process. Those arrested claim they have been tortured and physical evidence and manner of arrest appears to back their claims. Since army says it is neutral, i.e. it has stopped exercising control over civilian functions, the blame for illegal arrest lies with government whose officials, on and off the record, claim they have nothing to do with the arrest. So who are the khilai mukhlook who are ordering the arrest of army critics? Why does not high command come on record and say they have nothing to do with these unlawful arrests? And more worryingly, if no institutions is behind these arrests, then, have foreigners taken control of law enforcement agencies? Hounding of patriotic elements is something only a hostile power would do. And a related point: fooking judges get paid a crap load of cash. Will they even justify a tiny portion of their salary by doing the job they are paid to do?

2. Claim: In dangerous times, army proactively provides security for Pakistan. Evidence: Pakistan's most prominent and popular leader and ex-PM has been targeted by a gunman or gunmen. Any self respecting country provides security to ex-head of government. Attack on IK is a threat to security of Pak - army's sacred mission. Why should heads not roll over this security failure? Likewise, inability to secure PM's residence as well as means of communication is a security breach of the highest degree. Should leadership not be held accountable for this unforgivable failure?

3. Claim: their is no threat to journalist that have been critical of army in recent times. This point is also tied to claim 1 above. Evidence: Prominent journalists that have presented a "nationalist" viewpoint have had to run for the hills while ghaddaar channels like Geo are now getting army funding. DG ISI and DG ISPR held an unprecedented press conference at the exact moment of Arshad Sharif's funeral. According to Islamic ethics, we don't even disrespect the dead of the enemy. Yet the army of Islamic Republic cannot accord respect to a prominent journalist who was close to army circles. Besides, press conference, due to its optics, has raised serious question on army's culpability. Enemies of Pakistan have always claimed army is a rogue institution. HC has shown itself to be dumb beyond belief by acting in a manner which gives so much ammunition to its enemies. There will a a time when high command will be filled with patriot generals. But their actions will still be seen as stained due to the kurtooths of current group.

4. Claim: Political instability poses no threat to Pakistan's salamati because army leadership is chaukanna. Evidence: 1971 when India took advantage of political instability to attack Pakistan with active connivance of one of the parties. On the surface situation is different today because Pak has nuclear weapons and there is no Mukhti Bahini. Scratch the surface and all is not what it appears to be. I have documented obvious security failures in point number 2. Can we trust this lot to hide details of nuclear program when they cant fullfill basic part of their job? We know Sam is dead set against Pak nuclear program. We also know that COAS and head of ISI spent a week in DC. What was discussed in these meetings? Americans are hesitant to offer a free cup of coffee to their guest. Why were they hosting senior officials including foreign minister for a week and more? And will Americans have any hesitation in passing details of our nuclear program to our enemy. Additionally, I would not trust our ghaddar leaders like Altaf Bhai, Zardari and Sharifs to side with Indians if that is where their interest lie.

It pains me to raise these points since I am not a "liberal" who believes that army should have no say in governance. Given our location, our hostile neighbours, our ghadaar political class and our geedarh awam, it will be a complete disaster if army is neutered. But as things stand, centre cannot hold.

As much as I agree with much of what you said, although not all. I think we are being unfair by ignoring the politicians, they have played a big role in this mess, including Imran Khan.

After becoming the prime minister, he should not have refused to meet leaders of the opposition, on every major issue, he would send someone else, including the army chief, rather then attending the meetings himself. If his attendance resulted in opposition leaders not attending then that's their blame, but by not attending, the blame is his.

Kashmir issue, he didn't attend. FATA issue, he didn't attend, Gilgit-Baltistan issue, he didn't attend. These are issues of national importance, why send the army chief, and now cry about their involvement. These politicians need to grow the check up.

It doesn't matter if they are corrupt or asking for NRO, he's a grown up, deal with it, they have support in the population, so deal with it. You cannot hand over responsibility to others then ask them to stay out, it simply doesn't work that way.

The politicians need to grow up and act with maturity, and stop dragging army into everything, only then can we blame the army if they still get involved.

 

[Burger_King]

As much as I agree with much of what you said, although not all. I think we are being unfair by ignoring the politicians, they have played a big role in this mess, including Imran Khan.

After becoming the prime minister, he should not have refused to meet leaders of the opposition, on every major issue, he would send someone else, including the army chief, rather then attending the meetings himself. If his attendance resulted in opposition leaders not attending then that's their blame, but by not attending, the blame is his.

Kashmir issue, he didn't attend. FATA issue, he didn't attend, Gilgit-Baltistan issue, he didn't attend. These are issues of national importance, why send the army chief, and now cry about their involvement. These politicians need to grow the check up.

It doesn't matter if they are corrupt or asking for NRO, he's a grown up, deal with it, they have support in the population, so deal with it. You cannot hand over responsibility to others then ask them to stay out, it simply doesn't work that way.

The politicians need to grow up and act with maturity, and stop dragging army into everything, only then can we blame the army if they still get involved.

Yes, good points and I am largely in agreement with you.

IK is in the business of politics and the way politics is conducted in Pakistan is different from the way politics is done in Scandinavia. Corruption is way of life in Pakistan which is why likes of Zardaris keep getting elected. IK has made politics a battle between good and evil - a battle he is destined to lose given state of judiciary and ethnic fissures that exist in the country. Add to that politicisation and incompetency of NAB which did ensnare some innocent people and scared the mafias who ganged up and plunged the dagger after wink from Uncle Sam.

IK has worked with corrupt politicians before when he made common cause with them against Musharraf. And it was IK's chaheetah, Iftikhar Chaudrhy, who put the seal on NRO1. A bit more pragmatism on IK's part and we would not have been experiencing the instability we are seeing today. Pakistan faces multitude of challenges. Focus on corruption at the expense of other challenges will lead the country to dead-end.

 

[peagle]

Yes, good points and I am largely in agreement with you.

IK is in the business of politics and the way politics is conducted in Pakistan is different from the way politics is done in Scandinavia. Corruption is way of life in Pakistan which is why likes of Zardaris keep getting elected. IK has made politics a battle between good and evil - a battle he is destined to lose given state of judiciary and ethnic fissures that exist in the country. Add to that politicisation and incompetency of NAB which did ensnare some innocent people and scared the mafias who ganged up and plunged the dagger after wink from Uncle Sam.

IK has worked with corrupt politicians before when he made common cause with them against Musharraf. And it was IK's chaheetah, Iftikhar Chaudrhy, who put the seal on NRO1. A bit more pragmatism on IK's part and we would not have been experiencing the instability we are seeing today. Pakistan faces multitude of challenges. Focus on corruption at the expense of other challenges will lead the country to dead-end.

This focus on corruption is insane. It will lead to nowhere.

The world has always been corrupt, is corrupt and always will be corrupt, only difference being how much. Even developed nations are corrupt to a varying degree.

All this emphasis on corruption by Pakistanis gives the impression around the world, DO NOT INVEST, they are corrupt, so the investment goes somewhere else that is very likely just as, if not more corrupt then Pakistan, they just don't shout and cry about it.

There's corruption here in the UK, I know first hand, it's childish to pretend that Pakistan is a special case, it certainly isn't.

The best way is to stop shouting and crying about it > create mechanisms > and let them work, without fanfare.

And, for Gods sake accept election results, no matter who wins. If all parties try to use underhand methods, they shouldn't cry if one party's method worked. Its childish and ridiculous.
For electioneering, please please bring the term down to 4 years. The politicians get a heart attack when they realise their next chance is 5 years away. In the 3rd year everything starts turning pear shape. I think they'll be happy to wait 4 years, it will massively reduce instability.