Japanese and South Korean fighter planes

[flamer84]

So China cant develope a decent engine huh?
To be fair,most are licence build but there are a couple of indigenous ones.
Im sure their engine will be ready soon,with the experience they have.
List of Chinese aircraft engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I didn't say that,i know they're catching up fast.One chinese poster argued that only China,Russia and the US are capable of developing engines and there is where i thought he was wrong.

 

[kalu_miah]

@T-123456 @flamer84 what do you guys think of the Made in Japan plane Kawasaki P-1 and the engine XF5-1 (not used in P-1, but related to it, I posted pictures of it in the post below)?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...outh-korean-fighter-planes-2.html#post4746838

 

[flamer84]

Future Turkish Fighter Concepts Revealed at IDEF 13 | Aviation International News



TFX (Turkey) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY - Turkey to replace F-16s with local jets

I always thought that developing an indigeneous fighter with foreign engines is not a good ideea as you can be side tracked when it comes to exports like it happenned to the JF 17 or to the Gripen which the americans stopped on several markets.

 

[flamer84]

@T-123456 @flamer84 what do you guys think of the Made in Japan plane Kawasaki P-1 and the engine XF5-1 (not used in P-1, but related to it, I posted pictures of it in the post below)?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...outh-korean-fighter-planes-2.html#post4746838

Don't know very much about them but isn't the XF5-1 to small and underpowered to be used in a jet fighter plane? Now,i'm just an amateur just reading stuff online.

 

[T-123456]

@T-123456 @flamer84 what do you guys think of the Made in Japan plane Kawasaki P-1 and the engine XF5-1 (not used in P-1, but related to it, I posted pictures of it in the post below)?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...outh-korean-fighter-planes-2.html#post4746838

Its simular to the Snecma M88 in performance so good enough but i dont think its ready yet.
Im no expert in this field only enthousiast.

 

[kalu_miah]

I always thought that developing an indigeneous fighter with foreign engines is not a good ideea as you can be side tracked when it comes to exports like it happenned to the JF 17 or to the Gripen which the americans stopped on several markets.

I am not sure why SAAB chose American GE F404 variant RM12 engine. Gripen is a single engine plane and it needs a larger engine, so may be it could not use EJ200 or Snecma M88 models, since those are smaller engines for twin engine planes. May be someone with more knowledge can answer that question.

 

[kalu_miah]

Don't know very much about them but isn't the XF5-1 to small and underpowered to be used in a jet fighter plane? Now,i'm just an amateur just reading stuff online.

I am not an expert either, but its as powerful as Snecma M88 as far as I can tell. The P-1 patrol plane use a different version of the same engine IHI F7:
IHI Corporation F7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kalu_miah]

Its simular to the Snecma M88 in performance so good enough but i dont think its ready yet.
Im no expert in this field only enthousiast.

Not sure about the exact stage of readiness of the engine. But the Chinese and one Bangladeshi posters opinion that Japanese has no experience in making similar aircraft engines, does not sound right.

IHI company history:
IHI Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These are the engines they have made so far:

1945 built 5
Ishikawajima Ne-20 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This engine was used in:
The Nakajima Kikka (中島 橘花 "Orange Blossom"?) was Japan's first jet-powered aircraft. It was developed late in World War II and the first prototype had only flown once before the end of the conflict. It also called Kōkoku Nigō Heiki (皇国二号兵器 "Imperial Weapon No.2"?).
Nakajima Kikka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1962 built -
Ishikawajima-Harima J3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These engines were used in:
Fuji T-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kawasaki P-2J - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1981 16kN built 550
Ishikawajima-Harima F3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This engine was used in:
Kawasaki T-4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2007 60kN built -
IHI Corporation F7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This engine is being used in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_P-1

Now the XF5-1 they are planning to use for Shinshin ATD-X 5th gen. fighter, sounds like an old design, but it probably needs modification or further development, so temporarily they may use other imported engines for initial prototypes:
Japan seeks foreign engines for stealth fighter prototypes

These include the General Electric F404 used to power the Boeing F/A-18 Hornet, Snecma's M88-2 for the Dassault Rafale and Volvo Aero's RM12, integrated with the Saab Gripen. Its search even contains the Gas Turbine Research Establishment GTX-35VS Kaveri, still in development for India's Aeronautical Development Agency Tejas light combat aircraft.

Local engine-maker Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries (IHI) has been assigned to develop the XF5-1 engine for the ATD-X. The move to source foreign engines for the prototypes could be part of efforts to give IHI more time and ensure that the overall programme remains on track.

 

[Audio]

@Audio You may want to address the points raised in above posts.

Not much to address, except that Turkey partnered up with SAAB.

 

[kalu_miah]

Not much to address, except that Turkey partnered up with SAAB.

Would appreciate your comments about some posters opinion that Japanese would not be able to make engines for their 5th gen. fighter.

Turkey wants at least 50% of the development work, while ROK was not sure if they could agree, so SAAB deal was made at that time. But if Korea eventually agrees then things might change, but I am not sure. KAI-KFX is going through a sleeping phase, it will be revived again in 2014 I think.

 

[Audio]

Would appreciate your comments about some posters opinion that Japanese would not be able to make engines for their 5th gen. fighter.

Well, what can i say?
Everyone is free to believe whatever they want or have been fed, but in general i believe you did a pretty good job in dispelling that myth with the chronological listing of Japanese engine development.
After a year on these boards i came to a realization there's only so much you can do with sharing links, sources etc....if a person has ulterior motives for pushing his beliefs (money, ideology), he will keep pushing it to the point of looking dumb and whatever you'll quote he will "forget" (read-won't tell) by the next thread.

So, bottom line, their scepticism is to be expected. Doesn't make them right though.

 

[xunzi]

I didn't say that,i know they're catching up fast.One chinese poster argued that only China,Russia and the US are capable of developing engines and there is where i thought he was wrong.

No you're not. You're trying to undermine China progress in engineer and stated that we are not in the league of engine making as USA-Russia-Europe country (UK and France), which is not true and not nothing to do with his stated 12+ ton.

China's goal is not to make an engine. We can already. Our goal is to make an engine that capable of reaching Pratt & Whitney F119 that power the F-22. That is not easy to achieve and why our WS-15 is still in testing phase.

 

[Audio]

No you're not. You're trying to undermine China progress in engineer and stated that we are not in the league of engine making as USA-Russia-Europe country (UK and France), which is not true and not nothing to do with his stated 12+ ton.

Lifetime or more accurately MTBO (mean time between overhaul) of WS-10 please. If it's on par with Russian engines, then yes, you are not in the same league.
China still imports turbine blades from Russia.

People’s Daily quotes Russian sources saying China can copy most parts of the AL-31 engines that power much of China’s J-10 and J-11 fighter fleets, but still must import turbine blades from Russia.

Is China About to Get Its Military Jet Engine Program Off the Ground?

Also, super duper Chinese tech, while negotiations for Su-35 are going on.

MOSCOW, September 7 (RIA Novosti) – Moscow and Beijing expect to seal the deal on the sale of Russian Su-35 fighter jets to China in 2014, a senior official at the Russian arms exports monopoly said Saturday.
“Talks are ongoing, but the deal is unlikely to be sealed before the year’s end. The signing will most likely take place next year,” said Viktor Komardin, deputy head of the state-run Rosoboronexport.
“Chinese negotiators are discussing the technical outlook of the plane,” Komardin told RIA Novosti.

Also, more weapons to copy:

“They want new types of weapons that we have, including from the [Moscow Region-based] Tactical Missiles Corporation. But that’ll be a separate deal,” he said.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20130907/183244625/China-to-Get-Russian-Su-35-Jets-in-2014--Rosoboronexport.html

 

[xunzi]

Even if it takes a decade or two, the smaller nations should and I believe will support Japan or Korea or Turkey to develop engines, jointly if possible, because the countries that currently produce engines, the technology is always selectively available and best ones are never available.

Korea and Turkey are not currently going for immediate engine development, they know it is beyond their ability, KAI-KFX and TAI-TFX are mainly for air frame, avionics and weapons system development. They were planning to use US or European engines from the start.

Japanese ATD-X (Shinshin) program does include a plan to use indigenous engine, IHI XF5-1:

http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/research/gaibuhyouka/pdf/XF5-H21.pdf
The engine in this pdf file has thrust of around 50 kN, which is similar to Snecma M88 of France used in Rafale.

Another variant of this turbo-fan:
IHI Corporation F7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
is being used in this Maritime Patrol Aircraft Kawasaki P-1, entirely made in Japan:
Kawasaki P-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

test flight of test model XP-1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dQIxiXNilk

production model P-1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwgAcuRn-DU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUGt8FbyxM8

Now all of this nothing compared to even China, let alone Russia, Western Europe or USA, but its a good start and it shows that they have potential, if they can line up support from other nations, of course after getting rid of their moronic weapons export restriction in their constitution.

That engine is under power for a 5th gen and most likely suit for 4th gen. Any previous experience of World War II engine had little value to modern turbofan engine design. The core technology is very much brand new.

 

[kalu_miah]

No you're not. You're trying to undermine China progress in engineer and stated that we are not in the league of engine making as USA-Russia-Europe country (UK and France), which is not true and not nothing to do with his stated 12+ ton.

China's goal is not to make an engine. We can already. Our goal is to make an engine that capable of reaching Pratt & Whitney F119 that power the F-22. That is not easy to achieve and why our WS-15 is still in testing phase.

Considering the 12+ ton statement, @Chinese-Dragon is correct, but don't you think if someone can make a smaller engine like Japan, for many decades, since 1942 actually, they can make a bigger more powerful one, if they need to and put funding and resources into it?

That engine is under power for a 5th gen and most likely suit for 4th gen. Any previous experience of World War II engine had little value to modern turbofan engine design. The core technology is very much brand new.

They are saying they can achieve Mach 2 with it and it is same power as Snecma M88 used in Rafale. But I posted all info I could find about it, I don't know more and I am not an expert on engines or fighter planes.