Japanese and South Korean fighter planes

[kalu_miah]

I will try to explain the reason why I opened this thread in Middle East and Africa section.

Today fighter planes are manufactured by USA, a few West European countries, Russia and China. Japan and Korea, although they have developed economy, they have so far depended on Western and mainly US fighters, some assembled in their country. Lately there is a move for developing indigenous fighters by both South Korea and Japan.

Just like Japanese and Korean cars have won large market-share in the world market due to their high quality and reliability, the same potential is there in producing fighter planes in these two countries. This will increase competition in the market place and reduce cost and will be good for the importing countries who do not have indigenous production.

There is security, strategic and geopolitical issues tied with fighter planes sales. NATO led by USA, Russia and China are world powers, so their equipment sales mainly go to either allies or neutral countries.

But Japan and Korea are not world powers with that kind of strategic spheres of influence. So if the design and production is truly indigenous, then it can be sold to almost any country, as long as they are not direct rivals and competitors of these two countries.

USA/EU and Russia traditionally had their own technology. China the largest nation, worked with Russia and has now developed almost all of its own fighters and other weapons. India is mainly working with EU countries to develop its own fighters. Japan and Korea are borrowing technology know how from USA/EU.

The countries that do not produce fighters and import them are the rest of the world. These are mainly smaller nations in Asia, Africa and Latin America. So Japanese and Korean fighters have potential to compete with fighters from US/EU, Russia and China in this vast global market place.

In order for the above small nations to be free from undue influence and restriction from powerful large nations and groups of nations, I believe it will be important for the small nations to pitch in and invest more in their own indigenous productions, starting with their fellow small nations Japan and South Korea, who happen to be developed and have the necessary know how to design and produce such products. Their only draw back is financing for R&D and having a large captive guaranteed market, so that economies of scale can be achieved with a large enough production run.

Financing of R&D can be in the form of investments from sovereign wealth fund of some cash rich nations, while many different countries can be approached for a possible market for these fighters:

Asia: Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Turkey, GCC states (I have left out Pakistan because it has strong ties with China and is producing some Chinese fighters under license)
Africa: Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Nigeria, South Africa
Latin America: Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Venezuela

At this moment, Indonesia is already a partner in a Korean future fighter program KAI-KFX.

I would recommend GCC states and Turkey to become investors/partners in these new fighter projects and consider purchasing existing product such as the Korean trainer/lite-attack aircraft TA50 and FA50. Participation of these countries as financiers/partners in these projects, would be very important for the success of these projects.

Korea Aerospace Industries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
KAI T-50 Golden Eagle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
KAI KF-X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mitsubishi ATD-X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kalu_miah]

ShinShin ATD-X, Japanese 5th gen. stealth fighter work-in-progress:

 

[kalu_miah]

ATD-x:

 

[mohsen]

about that T-50 thing, 2 crash in less than 1 year. I guess a new record for a brand new aircraft.

 

[kalu_miah]

about that T-50 thing, 2 crash in less than 1 year. I guess a new record for a brand new aircraft.

Second crash has PAF rethinking Korean FA50 jet option - InterAksyon.com
T-50 trainer crash kills two pilots

There has been two crashes, the first one was due to maintenance error, the second one the investigation is still on-going. I would say that when a new product is introduced, there will be initial teething problems, as this is the first Korean designed fighter. But this is no reason to think that the product is a failure. If you have doubts about quality of Korean products, use any LG large screen TV, smart phone or drive the newest Hyundai Equus.

 

[kalu_miah]

ATD-X:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDe-9lhe-fk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4Ucjp9qJOg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re1CCVk0vdc

 

[kalu_miah]

KAI Publishes Small KF-X Concept

KAI Publishes Small KF-X Concept
By Bradley Perrett, Bill Sweetman
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology

July 22, 2013
Credit: KAI
Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) has published a drawing of a moderately stealthy fighter concept based on its T-50 series of supersonic trainers and light-attack aircraft. The concept aircraft is far smaller and less ambitious than the all-new, twin-engine KF-X designs promoted by the Agency for Defense Development, the leading proponent of building an indigenous South Korea fighter.

Some South Korean industry officials doubt that the country has the technical resources to build the KF-X, especially if major civil aerospace programs go ahead at the same time; a 90-seat turboprop airliner is also proposed. But a KF-X derived from a current type would demand less engineering and may benefit from stronger pricing by avoiding competition with the Lockheed Martin F-35, although Saab is already in the market for advanced but moderately sized fighters with its Gripen E/F.

The T-50 and its FA-50 light fighter derivative are themselves based on the F-16 and were developed with help from Lockheed Martin, but the stealthy concept, called KF-X-E, departs from the F-16 planform used for the earlier aircraft. Some wing and fuselage edges are parallel, and the trailing edges of the main and tail planes are swept forward. The fuselage sides have chines. Nose volume of the KF-X-E appears to be small, limiting the size of the radar antenna, but the airframe seems to have more volume overall than the T-50, offering more space for internal fuel and thereby minimizing the need for external tanks and their radar reflections.

Retention of the single tail on the KF-X-E is emblematic of the limited ambition of the designers, who appear to have aimed at achieving a level of stealth above that of the Eurofighter Typhoon and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet but well below that of the Lockheed Martin F-22 and F-35. The latter two, like other stealth aircraft, have canted twin tail fins.

Similarly, the air inlets of the KF-X-E have boundary-layer diverters; recent stealth aircraft handle the boundary layer with aerodynamic shaping and no diverters. The KF-X-E may be too small for internal weapons stowage. No engine details are known, but South Korea may want to replace the T-50's General Electric F404, whose future application appears limited to the T-50 series, with another probably more powerful type. Candidates would include the GE F414 and Eurojet EJ200.

The winner of the separate F-X Phase 3 competition for 60 fighters—Lockheed Martin, Boeing or Eurofighter—is expected to support KF-X development. Each manufacturer has proposed a design. Lockheed Martin's could conceivably be similar to but a little larger than the KF-X-E by introducing stealth features into the design of the F-16. The result would still be a fighter well-differentiated from the F-35.

A key issue in developing the KF-X-E might be obtaining permission from Lockheed Martin, which presumably has intellectual property in the T-50 design or at least contractual rights to ensure that it does not become an F-16 competitor. Another obstacle is that the South Korean air force prefers twin-engine aircraft for the medium-fighter category that the KF-X would fill.

KAI did not respond to a request for further information about the KF-X-E.

Comments:

SlowMan
3:45 PM on 7/24/2013
The KFX-E was sort of an internal "worst-case" scenario study for KAI in 2012, a situation in which KAI would be forced to "go-alone" due to political/funding circumstances, in which case the easiest route to take would be to modify what they were familiar with, the F/A-50. Such would be the case of an F-35 win, because Lockheed Martin was very much opposed to the KFX program and high F-35 prices would drain funding away from the KFX program.

This option is NOT ON THE TABLE at the moment and the plan is still for a twin-engine jet and has the ROKAF and parliamentary backing. Boeing is the likely KFX engineering partner because Boeing's Silent Eagle (F15-SE) is expected to win the F-X III bidding after the government decided to resume the suspended price bidding based on vendor inputs. According to the DAPA's bidding rule clarification, they would only put bids on budget on yes/no votes at the selection committee and not even bother with bids over the budget.

Boeing is said to be merely $230 million above the budget at the last bidding and has gone to the press to claim that they could close this gap if the bidding was to resume, while the USAF(F-35)'s non-negotiable FMS price was $1.5 billion over budget and was virtually disqualified under the DAPA's selection guidance. As for the Eurofighter Consortium, the exact pricing was not known but the people in knowledge was complaining of a very high price, leaving Boeing as the sole vendor with a possibility of hitting the budget.

Score: 0 X-Planes
9:11 AM on 7/25/2013
That's quite a clever design, just take an F-16 (or a T-50) and reconfigure the airframe for reduced radar cross section. It would be effective, small, nimble, and shouldn't cost too much more than an F-16. This is originally what I thought the JSF was supposed to be, a cheap but effective alternative to F-22 for export.

 

[kalu_miah]

KFX export estimate up to 600

The above Korean language article was translated by Google translator, there might be mistakes.

"KFX 600 export is successful ... our hands yirwoya"
Articles Registration Date [2013-09-05 17:58:51]

Oh, Jong - Taek press, Seoul = Business Wire Wed = ten years of standstill KFX (Korean fighter) if the business is successful, large-scale export of up to 600 argued that the possibility was raised. Economy and export industries that are likely to foster domestic flights as soon as possible, even to the view that the domestic development is to be undertaken.

Stardate Yonsei Air Force and the academic program organized by the Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) Air Stardate international conference sponsored by the 5 pm memorial tribute was held at the National Assembly.

'Air Stardate, inquire the way to Republic of Korea' open day conference on the topic in the domestic aviation industry KFX role and future direction of the business in-depth discussion was played.

KAI vice president of the spiral jangseongseop panelists Boramae business development around the country according to the national economy and development capabilities and export potential for negative perception about the said position.

Chapter vice president, "according to the national development, but the long-term commitment to the development and production stage management to reduce maintenance costs and is currently in operation for KF-16 to replace the volume even higher if you include economics" and "operational maintenance and economic impacts, employment effects, including side-effects, such as when exporting domestic research and development more economical, "he said.

He "KAI engineers of the 1,400 people (60% of workers over 10 years of experience) and three-dimensional virtual design system, and various test and evaluation facilities and are equipped with personnel and facilities" and "some lack skills needed to develop state-of-the-art fighter, but FX business This is complemented by the development that is confident, "he assured.

When he completed the development of future export prospects looked bright. Chapter vice president, "the existing F-16 was developed in 2020, is likely to be Zhongshan nyeonkke" and "global market research firm Teal Group Boramae gatchumyeon a competitive price, but at least 200 up to 600 units expected to export around , "he said.

Chapter Vice President "Boramae business over the past 10 years of debate and controversy finalizing a successful business practices for the promotion of non-specific that it is desirable," he added, should be undertaken as soon as possible in business.

President of the society of Korea Aerospace jojinsu Hanyang University, led by the need to develop domestic business KFX insisted.

Professor Joe "Air Force KFX want to develop our technology reaches the level of developed countries, 90% of the study of the Agency for Defense Development," said "the new aircraft acquisition costs is much larger than the total life-cycle costs, because now we have by hand to create a fighter, "he said.

"The aviation industry to lead the creative economy, one of the leading sectors," said, "even if this goes further than expected development costs, even if we lack technology should be developed in the form of domestic-led," he said.

[email protected]

 

[xunzi]

Second crash has PAF rethinking Korean FA50 jet option - InterAksyon.com
T-50 trainer crash kills two pilots

There has been two crashes, the first one was due to maintenance error, the second one the investigation is still on-going. I would say that when a new product is introduced, there will be initial teething problems, as this is the first Korean designed fighter. But this is no reason to think that the product is a failure. If you have doubts about quality of Korean products, use any LG large screen TV, smart phone or drive the newest Hyundai Equus.

There is no comparison between producing high-quality low-tech commercial product to a "state-of-the-art" aircraft. The latter requires very advance technology, enormous investment and research, highly skilled and large human capital. We're not talking about in the tenth thousand but in the hundredth of skilled engineers. Not to mention, a very capable and large manufacturing and industrial base. There is no point to make a state-of-art design craft if you don't have the manufacturing capability to mass-produce them.

But the biggest risk that any small-medium side country face with indigenous program is it can have a devastated effect on the economy if failure to produce desired craft. This is not the same as producing a car model and if fail, can be discard and try a new model. It is too costly to do that with state-of-the-art products. Any failure will have an impact on defence budget and economy and could set the country back years in development.

 

[xunzi]

By the way, Turkey wants to involve with the South Korea KAI KF-X program on equal term but the South Koreans reject it because they want to have as much said in the design process. Because of this reason, it is very difficult to do multiple party joint-development. Nobody will agree and the program gets delay. Country with similar capability will not accept participation by money contribution. They want to have an input in the design, direction, and technology. Reason Indonesia is okay with money contribution mainly because they lack technical knowledge and are willing to learn. It is their only option because USA/Russia/China will not share their state-of-art technology easily.

 

[UKBengali]

There is one mighty obstacle to producing your aircraft and that is aircraft engines.

So far only the US, EU and Russia have demonstrated this capability.

China is nearly there and will probably have the capability towards the latter part of the decade. It will then have taken China more than half a century of hard work and massive resources to achieve this task.

India has pretty much given up and decided to go for foreign engines for the LCA, after a quarter of a century of work on it. Despite this failure, at least it has managed to obtain a degree of knowledge in engine design and manufacturing that currently neither Japan or Korea possess, so they both are behind India now.

Like it or not, the area of independent plane production will remain in the US, EU, Russia and China for the next generation or two.

 

[xunzi]

There is one mighty obstacle to producing your aircraft and that is aircraft engines.

So far only the US, EU and Russia have demonstrated this capability.

China is nearly there and will probably have the capability towards the latter part of the decade. It will then have taken China more than half a century of hard work and massive resources to achieve this task.

India has pretty much given up and decided to go for foreign engines for the LCA, after a quarter of a century of work on it. Despite this failure, at least it has managed to obtain a degree of knowledge in engine design and manufacturing that currently neither Japan or Korea possess, so they both are behind India now.

Like it or not, the area of independent plane production will remain in the US, EU, Russia and China for the next generation or two.

I cannot agree more with you. Engine is a pain in the *** because even if you have the engine part sitting there, you wouldn't know the composite part and formula to replicate it. The material science requirement is very complex and testing various component is time-consuming. This is why it takes such a long time to have a finish engine product.

 

[kalu_miah]

@Audio You may want to address the points raised in above posts.

 

[kalu_miah]

I cannot agree more with you. Engine is a pain in the *** because even if you have the engine part sitting there, you wouldn't know the composite part and formula to replicate it. The material science requirement is very complex and testing various component is time-consuming. This is why it takes such a long time to have a finish engine product.

I do not agree, I think both of you are under estimating the industrial base and R&D human resources available in ROK and Japan. What they need is partners to share their cost and a large internal market. This is not difficult to achieve, Turkey has cooperated with Korea on many projects, the KAI-KFX and TAI-TFX talks are still ongoing, even though TFX has decided to go separately for now with a SAAB based design and KFX is postponed temporarily. The biggest obstacle for Japan is its export restriction, which it needs to get rid of ASAP. As for financial partners, I think cash surplus GCC states may lend them a hand, as it will strengthen their security reducing their dependence on Western technology, putting all eggs on one basket.

In the long term, further cooperation and sharing between small nations are bound to happen, led mainly by industrialized Japan, Korea and Turkey, while closely followed by less industrialized Indonesia and GCC states and other countries in Asia, Africa and South America, to develop a weapons and other technology platform that is not dependent on West, China or Russia.

 

[UKBengali]

I do not agree, I think both of you are under estimating the industrial base and R&D human resources available in ROK and Japan. What they need is partners to share their cost and a large internal market. This is not difficult to achieve, Turkey has cooperated with Korea on many projects, the KAI-KFX and TAI-TFX talks are still ongoing, even though TFX has decided to go separately for now with a SAAB based design and KFX is postponed temporarily. The biggest obstacle for Japan is its export restriction, which it needs to get rid of ASAP. As for financial partners, I think cash surplus GCC states may lend them a hand, as it will strengthen their security reducing their dependence on Western technology, putting all eggs on one basket.

In the long term, further cooperation and sharing between small nations are bound to happen, led mainly by industrialized Japan, Korea and Turkey, while closely followed by less industrialized Indonesia and GCC states and other countries in Asia, Africa and South America, to develop a weapons and other technology platform that is not dependent on West, China or Russia.

No, we are not!

You simply do not understand that aircraft engines is one of the most complex technology that is around.

It is an order of magnitude more difficult to make aircraft engines than either airframe or avionics.

Brazil has one of the largest civilian aircraft industries, after the US and EU, and still has to import foreign engines. If it was not too difficult then Brazil would be making it's own engines.

Yes, Japan/Korea could make engines but it would take many decades before they had good, reliable engines that they could use.

You must appreciate that even though a country is technologically advanced in many areas, then that does not mean that it would have too much of an advantage if it decides to start in a new field that it has zero experience in. As an example you can refer to the South Korea rocket failure - even India that is far more technologically inferior in general has put dozens of satellites in orbit using it's indigenous rockets.

Any country that has not mastered aircraft engine technology, and engine technology in general, cannot become a world power. It is interesting that nearly all 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council can now make aircraft engines, with China still not fully there yet.