What's new

Japan Defence Forum

This Japanese F-35 is a downgraded export version. It’s 50 times more easier to detect than the domestic version.
Yeah...And am sure you have hard data to back that up. :enjoy:

F-35's range is too short to meet any threaten in East Asia, japanese better spend their money on producing more AVs.
Try this...

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/japan-deploys-first-downgraded-f-35.542357/page-7#post-10227337

Assuming it is not over your head.

Another enlightening post :-)

Appeasing a stupid post because of tribalism.
The mission of the Chinese on this forum is to support each other regardless of truths, facts, and logic. Even the laws of physics are not respected.

Your goal -- take my advice -- is not to focus on changing their minds but to expose the errors of their posts for the sake of the silent readers out there. You made an excellent rebuttal and that is what matters to the readers.
 
.
Yeah...And am sure you have hard data to back that up. :enjoy:


Try this...

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/japan-deploys-first-downgraded-f-35.542357/page-7#post-10227337

Assuming it is not over your head.


The mission of the Chinese on this forum is to support each other regardless of truths, facts, and logic. Even the laws of physics are not respected.

Your goal -- take my advice -- is not to focus on changing their minds but to expose the errors of their posts for the sake of the silent readers out there. You made an excellent rebuttal and that is what matters to the readers.

So are you saying that LM provided Japan domestic version of F-35. Something only Israel gets.

So the majority of posters from your supposed camp is claiming "the US is in retreat", "Japan will be left alone", and so on, and now you come and say that the US has no choice but to deepen the alliance with Japan. Glad that we agree on this :-) Good luck in persuading the rest of your camp. The "America is evil tinge" will help you get their support.

On a fair point, when Imperial Japan was destroyed by the US and subsequently occupied, many things were reestablished such as new media rules and the constitution in "made in occupied Japan". But since then, American control has continuously been rolled back over time. The first major example was when the Korean War broke out in 1950. It was no longer possible for the US to maintain direct military control over the Japanese territory. Thus the Self Defense Force was created with the responsibility of Japan's own security. The US did that because they had to deploy to the Korean peninsula in haste. When ever there is a crisis, Japan gains more of its original control back. 1972 saw the return of Okinawa excluding US military facilities. Numerous other little Pacific islands have also returned to Japanese control such as Iwo Jima. The crisis obviously was the Vietnam War. China's raise is another crisis, be it a cold one rather than a hot one. But the dynamic is pretty much the same. The US cannot deal with China alone while at the same time maintaining its interest in East Europe and the Middle East. So more of US control over Japan is rolled back so that Japan can take a larger role in common shared security interest in the region. The constitution was reinterpreted in 2014, order to make new defense that include the framework called "collective Self-Defense" in 2015, and those laws were passed in 2016. In effect, now Japan is now domestically legally capable of militarily defending a country besides Japan itself. Obviously the US (Guam, Hawaii) fall in this sphere. Other likely countries are Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam, Australia, and so on. This reduces the amount of US material needed to maintain regional security in the region. Obviously Japan gains from all these curtails. Basically put, all was made possible because of China's foreign policy on Taiwan, the 9 dash line, and territorial trespassing of the Senkaku islands. I reckon China might have figured Japan wouldn't have changed itself. If you look at Trump's commentary over the past year, his comments towards Japan have been ever better than what he collectively says towards the UK these days and especially better than what he says regarding China. Listen to other officials such as Tillerson or Mattis, personality is different, but the message is the same regarding the US-Japan alliance. On the Japanese said, the Abe government is overwhelming supportive of the US-Japan alliance, he couldn't emphasis it anymore. Its overwhelmingly obvious that the US-Japan alliance is at a point where the two function as a team to anyone that has been paying attention. There are times when both the US and Japan on different occasions express interest to improve relations with China. Being any louder about the US-Japan alliance probably would slash those chances to improve relations with China. But its is of course hard to do with China's 9 dash line, Senkaku island intrusions, and threat of force vs Taiwan. Well anyway, that went a little beyond the original point, so just to restate it, the US had absolute control over Japan in the early years after WW2, but over the decades, control has continuously been rolled back to Japan. The US military presence in Japan has been transitioning over these decades from an occupying force to an invited forward deployed force. Hard to train together if the US has to sail across the Pacific each and every time. Much like how US forces are now invited to Eastern European countries like Poland and Estonia today. Common security interests.



Another enlightening post :-)



Appeasing a stupid post because of tribalism.

Glad to hear that Japan is grateful for US occupation. I understand that most Japanese accepts its fault for actions in the Pacific during WWII. And that US occupation is not just appreciated by people of Japan, but beneficial to the Japanese nation. And the fact that US allow the Japanese imperial family to stay on is a mercy that Japan will be forever indebted.
 
.
So are you saying that LM provided Japan domestic version of F-35. Something only Israel gets.
I am saying nothing of the kind. Everything about this issue have been nothing more than innuendos.
 
.
So are you saying that LM provided Japan domestic version of F-35. Something only Israel gets.



Glad to hear that Japan is grateful for US occupation. I understand that most Japanese accepts its fault for actions in the Pacific during WWII. And that US occupation is not just appreciated by people of Japan, but beneficial to the Japanese nation. And the fact that US allow the Japanese imperial family to stay on is a mercy that Japan will be forever indebted.

Japanese put whole East Asia to shame because of their submissive attitude to the US.
 
.
Japanese put whole East Asia to shame because of their submissive attitude to the US.
Japanese is a proud race and they are famously known as hiding their true feeling and thinking deep inside their heart. Just now they are too weak to do anything to against the US occupation, but they definitely will revolt to get their independent when chances are present. I tend to believe Suika was just trying to say anything to please their "ally" and confuse them, because this is hard to believe a nation that was once never been kneel down to any Chinese Emperor and formed their own tributary system as a equal entity, would become a puppet nation that would lick his master's a** with no shame.
 
Last edited:
.
So the majority of posters from your supposed camp is claiming "the US is in retreat", "Japan will be left alone", and so on, and now you come and say that the US has no choice but to deepen the alliance with Japan. Glad that we agree on this :-) Good luck in persuading the rest of your camp. The "America is evil tinge" will help you get their support.

On a fair point, when Imperial Japan was destroyed by the US and subsequently occupied, many things were reestablished such as new media rules and the constitution in "made in occupied Japan". But since then, American control has continuously been rolled back over time. The first major example was when the Korean War broke out in 1950. It was no longer possible for the US to maintain direct military control over the Japanese territory. Thus the Self Defense Force was created with the responsibility of Japan's own security. The US did that because they had to deploy to the Korean peninsula in haste. When ever there is a crisis, Japan gains more of its original control back. 1972 saw the return of Okinawa excluding US military facilities. Numerous other little Pacific islands have also returned to Japanese control such as Iwo Jima. The crisis obviously was the Vietnam War. China's raise is another crisis, be it a cold one rather than a hot one. But the dynamic is pretty much the same. The US cannot deal with China alone while at the same time maintaining its interest in East Europe and the Middle East. So more of US control over Japan is rolled back so that Japan can take a larger role in common shared security interest in the region. The constitution was reinterpreted in 2014, order to make new defense that include the framework called "collective Self-Defense" in 2015, and those laws were passed in 2016. In effect, now Japan is now domestically legally capable of militarily defending a country besides Japan itself. Obviously the US (Guam, Hawaii) fall in this sphere. Other likely countries are Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam, Australia, and so on. This reduces the amount of US material needed to maintain regional security in the region. Obviously Japan gains from all these curtails. Basically put, all was made possible because of China's foreign policy on Taiwan, the 9 dash line, and territorial trespassing of the Senkaku islands. I reckon China might have figured Japan wouldn't have changed itself. If you look at Trump's commentary over the past year, his comments towards Japan have been ever better than what he collectively says towards the UK these days and especially better than what he says regarding China. Listen to other officials such as Tillerson or Mattis, personality is different, but the message is the same regarding the US-Japan alliance. On the Japanese said, the Abe government is overwhelming supportive of the US-Japan alliance, he couldn't emphasis it anymore. Its overwhelmingly obvious that the US-Japan alliance is at a point where the two function as a team to anyone that has been paying attention. There are times when both the US and Japan on different occasions express interest to improve relations with China. Being any louder about the US-Japan alliance probably would slash those chances to improve relations with China. But its is of course hard to do with China's 9 dash line, Senkaku island intrusions, and threat of force vs Taiwan. Well anyway, that went a little beyond the original point, so just to restate it, the US had absolute control over Japan in the early years after WW2, but over the decades, control has continuously been rolled back to Japan. The US military presence in Japan has been transitioning over these decades from an occupying force to an invited forward deployed force. Hard to train together if the US has to sail across the Pacific each and every time. Much like how US forces are now invited to Eastern European countries like Poland and Estonia today. Common security interests.

.

To keep long text shortened, US is experience financial problem, it make sense to offer concession to Japan in exchange that Japan shoulder more burden which it's not bad thing for US. But US still holding the key issues over Japan and prevent it to play at strategic level, anything Japanese development that can be consider as threat to US security or economy, US will not allowed to be happened : When Japan became an economy threat to US, as result Japan had to sign the Plazza accord, when Japan became a high tech threat to US, it was force to cede and transfer technology to US and force to buy F2 (F-16) instead of allowing Japan to develop their own fighter in 1990s, and for strategic weapon, US will never allow it to happen.

Now you tell me when your nation is totally at the mercy of other nation, you still claim that as alliance? LMAO, this is the great farce of 21st century. Reversely US dare not to impose any restriction to China because they will expect the middle finger from us, and I'm not wrong to say that that Japan is still a client state of US.
 
Last edited:
.
People here are too thick skulled, and think too much on the terms of "me, me, me", and think too much on simple terms of black and white as only either "submissive and client" or "revolt".

Let's not forget Japan has basically no natural energy resources. The US has tons of it. China has tons of it too. And so does Russia. There's only so much that human resource quality can do. With the necessity to get resources from abroad, cooperation from foreign countries is essential. So that puts Japan as a middle power. New technology can improve the energy situation, but it is not reality yet.

What's really strange is how people here are again passing the whole "America is evil" point about how it occupied Japan after WW2. The reason why it is really strange is because Japan was on the side of Germany during WW2 and according to the current historical narrative of the CCP, China was fighting in the war against fascism in which it so often includes Japan as have been a facist country. Thus according to that narrative, the total defeat and occupation of Japan was a good thing. And posters here have made posts in that line of thought many times. But now these other posts.

If Japan is able to create itself as a new major power of similar scale to that of China or the US, partnering countries are necessary, because Japan alone is too small. Hence TPP. But TPP will not only serve Japan, it has to serve the other member countries as well, otherwise it won't work. So Japan strives for cooperation. Not this single minded "me, me, me" tone. Not easy to do because thinking on such a high level of cooperation is not intuitive to mankind. The EU struggles to keep it together, but they continue to try because a Europe that is all divided is less advantageous to each of them.

Japan lost the war. But since then, Japan was able to become the largest and most technologically advance economy in Asia again not so long after being destroyed. Not so bad for being an "American client". A "client" that was able to raise up to even challenge and dominate a number of US tech companies.

So suppose TPP doesn't work out (but I think it will) and Japan remains the middle power, and is continuously sandwiched by a big China and a big US. Which side does Japan pick? In the US, the population generally likes Japan, and buys tons of Japanese products from cars to anime, is critical of their own government, has generally weak sentiment about WW2, and so on. And then there is China, that applies the anti-Japanese history card spontaneously whenever, throws people of dissent jail. Zhao Ziyang? 15 years of house arrest, and there until death. Liu Xiaobo? 10 years in jail, and there until his death. Or like how Falun Gong were rounded up by the 10,000s and jailed and murdered, just because they are creepy? Last I have checked, the Japanese government never took down the crosses of churches. Whether or not you disagree with those people, how does that punishment not strike you as harsh? Think Japanese should be OK with these things? Think the Japanese should be OK with a new world power as a neighbor that does these things? And let's not even get started with the disagreements over North Korea.. that really puts the US and Japan on the same team. Security of Taiwan does so too.

Yes, the F-2 fighter was a very expensive aircraft and there was technology transfer to the US. Other examples of unfriendly things are there. The US is just doing as to be expected; defending their own technology superiority. What country wouldn't? Are people suggesting that advance technology should be just handed out to whoever in a socialistic system? China is going to say, "here Pakistan, the latest J-20, have fun!" "Here Russia, the latest Type 55, have fun!" It doesn't work like that. With the F-2, the Japanese still didn't have a good enough jet engine, so in that program, the US still had some of their own technology leverage. Japan will continue to push its own domestic technology wherever it can. Right now they are developing a 15 ton thrust engine. Or with space rockets, early rockets were partially American technology and partially Japanese technology. But today's H2A, H2B, and Epsilon rockets are entirely Japanese. And Japan is developing the new H3 rocket which again is entirely Japanese.

Japan can stick the middle finger at the US. Simply making visits to Yasukuni Shrine is something even the US doesn't like because the US doesn't want to have to criticize Japan for the sake of appeasing China and South Korea. So it is not only South Korea of China that get annoyed with Yasukuni visits, the US does too. As far as technology transfers go, once in the 1970s or 1980s, Japan gave the Soviet Union submarine propeller millers that enabled the SU to make much quieter subs. That really infuriated the US. If stuff like that is done often, then trust with the US would be shattered. So the US knows to not apply too much pressure on Japan.

"Client" is an exaggeration. The US has heavy influence. But they have heavy influence on many countries. That is to be expected from their sheer size. But swap the US for China? lol
 
.
Definition of Client state : a country that is dependent on a larger and more powerful country for its political, economic, or military welfare. Japan is perfectly fit to the definition: it's so obvious that economy and military is heavily rely on US but also in international politic, Japan doesn't have independent policy but always follow and align with US. Japan just happen to be a perfect client state of US regardless of any excuses you're trying to make.

As Chinese I don't really care if Japan is client state or not but when you're bragging that US-Japan is allied just make me laugh, there is no equal relation in this alliance but a superior and subordinate relation, US gave order and Japan just follow either in military or in international politic. During 1960s Sino-Soviet split is due to ideology and the fact that we didn't want to be client state of Soviet despite of our poverty, we have earn our dignity with hunger and famine rather than to live under subordination of foreign power.
 
.
Definition of Client state : a country that is dependent on a larger and more powerful country for its political, economic, or military welfare. Japan is perfectly fit to the definition: it's so obvious that economy and military is heavily rely on US but also in international politic, Japan doesn't have independent policy but always follow and align with US. Japan just happen to be a perfect client state of US regardless of any excuses you're trying to make.

As Chinese I don't really care if Japan is client state or not but when you're bragging that US-Japan is allied just make me laugh, there is no equal relation in this alliance but a superior and subordinate relation, US gave order and Japan just follow either in military or in international politic. During 1960s Sino-Soviet split is due to ideology and the fact that we didn't want to be client state of Soviet despite of our poverty, we have earn our dignity with hunger and famine rather than to live under subordination of foreign power.

That definition fits North Korea to China, not Japan. If China did not exists, North Korea would have died a long time ago. If the US did not exists, Japan still has its technology and economic power with other countries. US-Japan alliance is now based on common geopolitical and security interest. A major point that you avoided.
 
.
Definition of Client state : a country that is dependent on a larger and more powerful country for its political, economic, or military welfare. Japan is perfectly fit to the definition: it's so obvious that economy and military is heavily rely on US but also in international politic, Japan doesn't have independent policy but always follow and align with US. Japan just happen to be a perfect client state of US regardless of any excuses you're trying to make.

As Chinese I don't really care if Japan is client state or not but when you're bragging that US-Japan is allied just make me laugh, there is no equal relation in this alliance but a superior and subordinate relation, US gave order and Japan just follow either in military or in international politic. During 1960s Sino-Soviet split is due to ideology and the fact that we didn't want to be client state of Soviet despite of our poverty, we have earn our dignity with hunger and famine rather than to live under subordination of foreign power.
American culture,is quite different from Chinese.
For example,I was shocked when someone told me that they are family.
u=263883058,1365927060&fm=27&gp=0.jpg
 
.
That definition fits North Korea to China, not Japan. If China did not exists, North Korea would have died a long time ago. If the US did not exists, Japan still has its technology and economic power with other countries. US-Japan alliance is now based on common geopolitical and security interest. A major point that you avoided.

Indeed but US is always there and Japan will have to be living like this for decade or century to come and will never escape US's grips unless there is miracle. I don't deny that Japan also use US as well for geopolitical purpose to counter China and Russia but Japan will never be an independent country, it's simply go against US's interests; an independent Japan mean no future for US in Asia.
 
.
Indeed but US is always there and Japan will have to be living like this for decade or century to come and will never escape US's grips unless there is miracle. I don't deny that Japan also use US as well for geopolitical purpose to counter China and Russia but Japan will never be an independent country, it's simply go against US's interests; an independent Japan mean no future for US in Asia.

You're stretching "independent". Japan could became like North Korea and forcefully remove Americans. But that would be just a giant North Korea. You be the judge in comparing the quality of life. No thank you to stupid pill "independence". And you again, third time now, ignored common geopolitic interest. Congrats on elevating your trolling skills.
 
.
Japanese is a proud race and they are famously known as hiding their true feeling and thinking deep inside their heart. Just now they are too weak to do anything to against the US occupation, but they definitely will revolt to get their independent when chances are present. I tend to believe Suika was just trying to say anything to please their "ally" and confuse them, because this is hard to believe a nation that was once never been kneel down to any Chinese Emperor and formed their own tributary system as a equal entity, would become a puppet nation that would lick his master's a** with no shame.
I don't think they are . Look at their anime and video game culture. All their main characters are Caucasian looking and their loser weakling hero is Japanese. They may not kowtow to ancient Chinese emperors but they are extremely terrified of fat man and little boy. Modern Japanese
 
.
I don't think they are . Look at their anime and video game culture. All their main characters are Caucasian looking and their loser weakling hero is Japanese. They may not kowtow to ancient Chinese emperors but they are extremely terrified of fat man and little boy. Modern Japanese

And back to the enlightening posts :-)
 
.
And back to the enlightening posts :-)
It is enlightening about their mindsets, ain't it ? Never mind that in their China, Chinese girls prefers white men over Chinese men, and that Chinese standards of beauty pretty much mirrors the Western standards.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom