J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I just hope that you will not get offended by my replying to your post and also will result in a healthy, logical discussion. My apologies if you mind anything.

Now I am new to this forum so I do not know what used to occur years back. But from replies and posts which I have read recently, what I think is that there is some type of low esteem issue. I have read how indians trolls on PDF, how they copy paste stuff from internet and than start chest thumping and most guys I think have never even seen a radar screen in real life or how those avionics work or have used the stick in cockpit other than fiddling with their own. So they basically do what they can at best do, matching specs provided on public internet and trying to fathom which is better. With indians trolling and chest thumping especially after Rafale purchase (I can just imagine how much chest thumping they would have done for Su-30 from this), this inability to respond had turned into a desire for some to some how get a jet they can also chest thump about and they want a Gripen or a EFT or a Su-35 or even a J-10. For some, may be mixed with patriotism, it has turned into such anguish which they are now venting out against PAF. I have come to conclusion that there is no point or use in trying to argue against it.

Case is point: After lot of non-coherent replies and refusing that he considers any issue with F-16 and skirting providing any thing concrete in terms of operations against buying F-16s, this volatile guy in the end mentioned: F16 has done it and its era is gone .Only way F16 will be relevant if it comes with SABR (which is not happening). The issue basically is they need to have some AESA or some 'advanced' avionics with public data available on net which they can throw in the face of indian trolls and do some chest thumping of their own.

Now about what you mentioned about Pakistan not buying EFT, or M2K or Rafale, I think we'll just keep going in circles but I ask you a simple question to ponder on. If fire control radars in fighter aircraft were so much pivotal than why everyone is trying so hard to build highly agile and capable dogfighters?

If EFT was such an excellent fighter that it can eclipse every other fighter than why is that EFT pilots feel so much proud of their 'virtual kills' against F22 that they proudly display these on their jets and Rafale guys actually released a couple of videos on net too about it. Putting your 'virtual kills' on jet before that was unheard of and not practiced before that. If F22 guys also start putting their virtual kills of EFTs, Rafales,F-16s etc there will be no place left on those jets. But the case in point, the jet which most probably accumulated most 'virtual kills' against F22s were neither EFTs or Rafales, they were F-16s of USAF aggressor squadrons.

In terms of radar and BVR combat, jet fighters fire control radars come on a lower rung than other radars it does not matter if they are AESA or MESA in range, in better detection as well as better ECCM, they are on a lower rung. E.g. in Becca vally air war, most Israeli fighter even did not turn on their radars and relied on their AWACS for targeting data for BVR solutions mostly trying to shoot in side along engagements. But even than with such an overwhelming advantage in BVR regime against an airforce which practically had no BVR range capability most of kill occurred in VWR combat.

In short to wrap this up. In 90s, we needed to induct a lot of jets preferably with BVR capability and Mirage 2k was way to expensive and beyond our financial means and also in VWR combat is at best comparable with our older Mirages (actually performed slightly lower because of becoming more heavy) and far below F-16s. So a way was found by purchasing older Mirages and upgrading them.

Rafale, we have already evaluated and did not find it to be a good fit. Its too expensive with higher service hours and lower sortie rates. Its also short legged without its drop tanks, depletes more energy in dogfights which can result in problems in VWR combat if that gets dragged for some time. Basically it is a good long range fighter bomber and that is why IAF is inducting it, without drop tanks it is more like a Mig-29 just a point defence/base defence interceptor albeit with excellent radar.

Well no military would provide actual details as public information till those are declassified. What is available in the Press is what we can get online. PDF tries to find some sort of reference to what is being said is true hence the source. Usually the sources are true only to what they can officially report. Many times media cell of MOD has to come and get some news edited as they did not want some part to be made public.

Companies that manufacture defence products or for that matter any product would only tell certain features so that an interest can be created. The actual performance would only be disclosed when proper training is imparted.

What the Indians are doing is nothing new it happens every where in the world. What I have is the best what you have is junk. To prove a point they have to find what ever source they can get but that must be restricted to the point where it shows superiority over the other. Those sources that compare critically and highlight the defects or short comings are usually posted for the sake of defence from the side who's product has been termed junk.

Public data on AESA is still very limited because this technology is very new and is being guarded. This does not indicate that PESA can not do the same task. This reality some how is very difficult to digest.

The basic concepts of Aerodynamics do not change be it a first generation dog fighter or fifth generation. The thing is since the Korean War WVR is being replaced by BVR (Theoretically) hence what we saw then was missile were being developed and with that the airborne radars. Today we have reach a point where life of a pilot is too complex because he / she must rely on computers then on instincts. Why did they go to this point is the Western World found the true cost of a mans life. Now the answer to your question is Pilots are required to fly out of situations where they have got primary flight instruments and flight controls and all their high tech computers have failed or are giving more trouble that help. This is where the true potential of a pilot and machine comes to reality.

The point regarding virtual kill is laho garam rakhne hai aik bahana. They know they have not gone to an actual war and would not go in the future so we should just put these virtual kills to our name so that one day when our children ask what did we do we can show them these.

In the 90's we could not induct aircraft but we should have upgraded our existing aircraft like we did later on. Very true we did add Mirage fighters in the 90's but ROSE upgrade was done much later. Any ways we should take positives from this and build mechanisms so that we do not make the same mistakes in the future.

We evaluated all aircraft including the EFT, Rafale, Gripen, Mig-29 and SU-27. The best aircraft in these was the EFT but at that time it was held very advance. Some times one has to see what else can be achieved in the long run. The French offered PAF avionics for the JF-17. These however would have increased the cost. The EFT would have given EJ200 engine to power the JFT but EFT itself was too expensive for PAF to operate at that time. Gripen was equivalent and it had a US engine that was not for export. The only option for engine remained the Russians through the Chinese. All other solutions regarding avionics and weapon systems were to be made locally or through collaboration from other countries hence giving Pakistan a much wider scope. Hence today the possibility of exports have increased exponentially provided the costs remain low.

We know F-16 block 52 would have given a boost to counter India but for some reason we may not see them coming to Pakistan in the short run. PAF if it is trying to do what it successfully did with the Mirages in the 90's and 2000's can not do the same with the F-16's what now.

 

[MastanKhan]

Every one related to the car sales department is a salesman---regardless he is a salesman--sales manager---finance manager or general manager.

We all are salesmen.---some salesmen stay as salesmen because they make more money than the managers---and there are no liabilities.

Anyway---coming back to the issue----. The poster does not understand that the issue is not the aircraft F16 BLK52----it is the finest of the finest---.

The issue is about the procurement of the F16---the way the procurement has been approached---and lack of information on the part of the paf to what the temperature of the american public is after San Bernardino killings against pakistan.

The approach in buying is the crux of the problem---. It was handled in an extremely callous manner---it was approached in an extremely unprofessional manner---it was approached without doing any proper research---there was no homework done ahead of time to see which way the wind was blowing---how the american public would feel about it---.

And to top it off---the pakistani air chief marshall Aman---openly threatens the U S---sell us or we will go elsewhere---.

Basically---paf fell into the same trap that it had set for itself years ago when the F16's were sanctioned---. It never took into account the sentiment of the american public---the paf did the same thing this time as well---they forgot the american public one more time---.

American's need to be handled in a certain manner---you have to take away something that is important to them---you have to poke at their ego---you have to make them feel that they are not needed.

So---instead of saying that the BLK 52 was the best of the best---you should not have said anything and just leased 18 J10C's with aesa from china quietly----and acted like you just got the 7th wonder of the world.

That would have given the americans a full fledged diar-hea---they would be running from pillar to post with their hands on their ars-es wondering what had happened---wtf did china have that paf went for it and did not say anything to us---.

But the fools that the Paf is----it down played the capabilities of the J10C's---and stated that it is worthless----so on one hand----the paf humiliated the chinese equipment---just to kiss american ar-se---and it up played the american equipment not realizing that the americans would get cocky over it.

And as the J10C's would have come with aesa---the american would have given SABR aesa to pakistan for the F16's---because now they were not brining anything new to the arena---.

So---this is the crux of our current problem with the Paf---.

Now as for the M2k vs F16 issue---the Greek M2K's have held their own against the turkish F16's---.

The issue again over here is not the F16---but the time delay----took over 4 years to decide. You are already starving---yet you wait 4 + years after a sanction of 10 + years---what a drama that was.

Who sabotaged a quick fire purchase of the F16's after the sanctions came off.

In the end---the blame is put on the U S----and as I have stated many times---americans never put sanctions without informing you first---and they will do it in a very timely manner---will give you enough rope that you can hang yourself and your country with it as well.

 

[iPhone]

Every one related to the car sales department is a salesman---regardless he is a salesman--sales manager---finance manager or general manager.

We all are salesmen.---some salesmen stay as salesmen because they make more money than the managers---and there are no liabilities.

Anyway---coming back to the issue----. The poster does not understand that the issue is not the aircraft F16 BLK52----it is the finest of the finest---.

The issue is about the procurement of the F16---the way the procurement has been approached---and lack of information on the part of the paf to what the temperature of the american public is after San Bernardino killings against pakistan.

The approach in buying is the crux of the problem---. It was handled in an extremely callous manner---it was approached in an extremely unprofessional manner---it was approached without doing any proper research---there was no homework done ahead of time to see which way the wind was blowing---how the american public would feel about it---.

And to top it off---the pakistani air chief marshall Aman---openly threatens the U S---sell us or we will go elsewhere---.

Basically---paf fell into the same trap that it had set for itself years ago when the F16's were sanctioned---. It never took into account the sentiment of the american public---the paf did the same thing this time as well---they forgot the american public one more time---.

American's need to be handled in a certain manner---you have to take away something that is important to them---you have to poke at their ego---you have to make them feel that they are not needed.

So---instead of saying that the BLK 52 was the best of the best---you should not have said anything and just leased 18 J10C's with aesa from china quietly----and acted like you just got the 7th wonder of the world.

That would have given the americans a full fledged diar-hea---they would be running from pillar to post with their hands on their ars-es wondering what had happened---wtf did china have that paf went for it and did not say anything to us---.

But the fools that the Paf is----it down played the capabilities of the J10C's---and stated that it is worthless----so on one hand----the paf humiliated the chinese equipment---just to kiss american ar-se---and it up played the american equipment not realizing that the americans would get cocky over it.

And as the J10C's would have come with aesa---the american would have given SABR aesa to pakistan for the F16's---because now they were not brining anything new to the arena---.

So---this is the crux of our current problem with the Paf---.

Now as for the M2k vs F16 issue---the Greek M2K's have held their own against the turkish F16's---.

The issue again over here is not the F16---but the time delay----took over 4 years to decide. You are already starving---yet you wait 4 + years after a sanction of 10 + years---what a drama that was.

Who sabotaged a quick fire purchase of the F16's after the sanctions came off.

In the end---the blame is put on the U S----and as I have stated many times---americans never put sanctions without informing you first---and they will do it in a very timely manner---will give you enough rope that you can hang yourself and your country with it as well.

and the americans are that stupid that they wouldn't call the PAF bluff? sir, you talk about cars and car salesmen quiet often, and on that subject, my old man taught me that son, never lease a car. And since all of us listen to our fathers so much, I did the same. Like an diot 25 year old with a new job and some money in the bank, I went and leased me a 30 thousand dollar Mustang GT Convertable. Oh yeah!

The bastard salesman got me big time on that one. Ended up paying over 15 thousand dollars, I think, after the lease had ended. It's been over ten years since I turned the car in and the financial liablity that car turned out to be still gets to me. I could have invested that money, couldn't bought some dividend paying stocks and stuff.

But you ARE a car salesman, sir. You wanna reel people in with sweet sounding offers. And once the customers is totally molded and you walk him into the financing room thats where the poor fella gets raped by the sleeze ball finance person. Your offer for the PAF leasing the J10s is your classic car sales pitch. Hey, dont worry if you cannot afford the car, lease it, it's only 250 dollars a month for 36 months. But behind these main numbers lurk the extra shit that people get blindsided.

PAF is being treated exactly like a 25 year old kid with some newly found money in their pockets. PAF wouldn't be teaching AMericans any lesson by leasing the Chinese equipment. Amercians know the capabilities of the chinese weapons system.
P.S. there's no backlash against Pakistan for the San Bernardino shooting, at least publically, for I'm also integrated in the same American public. San Bernardino was treated just like another Islamic brainwashed fanatic shooting.

 

[MastanKhan]

and the americans are that stupid that they wouldn't call the PAF bluff? sir, you talk about cars and car salesmen quiet often, and on that subject, my old man taught me that son, never lease a car. And since all of us listen to our fathers so much, I did the same. Like an diot 25 year old with a new job and some money in the bank, I went and leased me a 30 thousand dollar Mustang GT Convertable. Oh yeah!

The bastard salesman got me big time on that one. Ended up paying over 15 thousand dollars, I think, after the lease had ended. It's been over ten years since I turned the car in and the financial liablity that car turned out to be still gets to me. I could have invested that money, couldn't bought some dividend paying stocks and stuff.

But you ARE a car salesman, sir. You wanna reel people in with sweet sounding offers. And once the customers is totally molded and you walk him into the financing room thats where the poor fella gets raped by the sleeze ball finance person. Your offer for the PAF leasing the J10s is your classic car sales pitch. Hey, dont worry if you cannot afford the car, lease it, it's only 250 dollars a month for 36 months. But behind these main numbers lurk the extra shit that people get blindsided.

PAF is being treated exactly like a 25 year old kid with some newly found money in their pockets. PAF wouldn't be teaching AMericans any lesson by leasing the Chinese equipment. Amercians know the capabilities of the chinese weapons system.
P.S. there's no backlash against Pakistan for the San Bernardino shooting, at least publically, for I'm also integrated in the same American public. San Bernardino was treated just like another Islamic brainwashed fanatic shooting.

Hi,

I live 10 miles form S B----and it is a day and night difference since that happened---. Tell me what you do---and I will tell you if you are that much integrated---.

As a home owner---I would never buy a new car---. I would always lease it---because if I am in an accident----they cannot sue me---and hold my property hostage---ie equity in my house---or my bank account or other assets.

I always lease my personal cars---. I have lease around 10 vehicles in the last 15 years between me and my wife.

Lease is for those people who change cars often---and not for those who are penny pinchers and count every dime---. It is also for those who want to make lower payments and don't want to deal with the headaches of major service costs after bumper to bumper warranty is over.

I am leasing a honda civic at 200 dollars a month---if I was to buy it with same drive off---it would be 380 a month for 60 months---. My wife forced me to buy a used sienna van---the monthly payment and the cost of upkeep on that used vehicle is more than if I had leased a new Honda Odyssey EX van---which would be around 300 dollars a month for 36 months---with zero maintenance out of my pocket---even oil changes are free.

380 is not in my comfort zone but 200 is---. As a home owner---I carry a 100000---300000 insurance on all cars---even when I had a 2000 dollars commuter toyota corolla---so the insurance does not make any difference for me---.

If you were to finance your mustang for 60 months---your payment would have been around 580 a month---so what was your problem with paying 15000 for 36 months---.

You paid off half the car---you used it for half the time---you could had paid off the balance to own it without bumper to bumper warranty---.

You just got the option of walking away from it after 3 years---if you had owned it afterwards---your bumper to bumper factory warranty was over---other maintenance costs etc etc etc---.

When you finance a car for 60 months to buy---you don't own it after 36 months---you are still upside down in it if you just paid the similar down payment as in your lease---.

I have not seen a single rich person complain about leasing---almost all the highline cars are leased---buying a car does not even come close to modern day leasing---.

Now as for the americans---before I get to them---let me comment on you---my man--you are not as clever as you want to pose and neither do you know the americans either---.

The americans have no access to the J10 and neither do they have it to the JF17---even though they have desperately tried it for the JF17---but were refused---.

The american admin need a VALID excuse to give the aircraft to pakistan as well---they don't want to lose control---. Regardless of if they know that the J10C is potent or not---they would to pressurize their congress and senate to okay the sale for pakistan---it is a game that is being played---that is the game that israel has been playing for the longest---.

As for leasing the J10C---that would have been the best thing---.

Again---let me state---you are not as clever and nor do you know the americans---the adminstration did want to give the F16's to pakistan----it was them that proposed the 400 million dollars usage out of the fund for the F16's and not pakistan---they paved the way for pakistan to only come up with 280 million.

Paf Air chief Sohail Aman is not the brightest star that there is----he caused the death of 30 + airmen at the Budhbir air base at the hands of the terrorists---which was in retaliation to the Paf Chief advertised strike flight on the terrs a short time prior to that---where he claimed to have killed 29 terrorists in the air strike.

Then to top it off---he threatens the U S " if you don't sell to us we will go elsewhere ".

And as for the J10C---with aesa and IRST it is far more advanced than the BLK 52---and it is no slouch in other fields either---leasing the J10C would have given the american admin leverage to force the congress and senate to go thru the F16 sale----.

And I would have bet you that we would have gotten the sabr aesa as well---because if the J10C cae with aesa---the americans wpuld not be changing the balance of power.

And for your information again---even the U S senator stated---sell them the F16's---otherwise they will go elsewhere and we WILL LOSE CONTROL---.

Pakistan is americas "-----"---the U S won't let go of it easily---.

 

[HRK]

Rafale, we have already evaluated and did not find it to be a good fit. Its too expensive with higher service hours and lower sortie rates.

can you plz explain it further as in commonly available information its Rafale availability rate is ~90% (A briefing iv French Parliament if I am not wrong)

 

[Zaneesh852]

Going to a new platform is no easy task we will have to setup an entire infrastructure for that and from what i remember j10 was rejected for future fc 31 deal

Such arguments look fancy when one has options. What other option does PAF have? J-31 is still a development project, and PAF walahs are not dumb enough to put faith in a plane which is still being developed and doesn't have the government funding support. That stupid rumor was a hoax of someone created to satisfy ego.

 

[volatile]

Case is point: After lot of non-coherent replies and refusing that he considers any issue with F-16 and skirting providing any thing concrete in terms of operations against buying F-16s, this volatile guy in the end mentioned: F16 has done it and its era is gone .Only way F16 will be relevant if it comes with SABR (which is not happening). The issue basically is they need to have some AESA or some 'advanced' avionics with public data available on net which they can throw in the face of indian trolls and do some chest thumping of their own.

Lolz this guy ,I have heard it all in the last 12 years of pakdefence or defence.pk so you are not any different .

Now about what you mentioned about Pakistan not buying EFT, or M2K or Rafale, I think we'll just keep going in circles but I ask you a simple question to ponder on. If fire control radars in fighter aircraft were so much pivotal than why everyone is trying so hard to build highly agile and capable dogfighters?

Classical F35 is it a dog fighter ?

If EFT was such an excellent fighter that it can eclipse every other fighter than why is that EFT pilots feel so much proud of their 'virtual kills' against F22 that they proudly display these on their jets and Rafale guys actually released a couple of videos on net too about it. Putting your 'virtual kills' on jet before that was unheard of and not practiced before that. If F22 guys also start putting their virtual kills of EFTs, Rafales,F-16s etc there will be no place left on those jets. But the case in point, the jet which most probably accumulated most 'virtual kills' against F22s were neither EFTs or Rafales, they were F-16s of USAF aggressor squadrons.

Where the .... F22 came from in this discussion .?

Rafale, we have already evaluated and did not find it to be a good fit. Its too expensive with higher service hours and lower sortie rates. Its also short legged without its drop tanks, depletes more energy in dogfights which can result in problems in VWR combat if that gets dragged for some time. Basically it is a good long range fighter bomber and that is why IAF is inducting it, without drop tanks it is more like a Mig-29 just a point defence/base defence interceptor albeit with excellent radar.

Oh man you nailed it comparing with Mig 29 / Perhaps spend some time on simulation being done USAF ,Other than Rafale /EFT against F22/F35 no other aeroplane didnt even detected them . This is height of delusions and confidence nothing else .I agree with @Mastan Khan comments about PAF facing even bigger idiots but guess what Idiots are getting good weapons .Regarding F16 era over my friend alas you know some thing about tech.There are few lessons from MBA i'm giving you free .

You tell me where F16 is in this life cycle ,I do this for living and i know what i am talking about .

F16s are in last stage Decline mode

 

[Jason Zhao]

why not choose our J20 and J31?
It is our good style.

 

[ghazi768]

can you plz explain it further as in commonly available information its Rafale availability rate is ~90% (A briefing iv French Parliament if I am not wrong)

my apologies, what I meant was service hours required per hour of flight, these effect sortie rates and in war even availability rate.

 

[New World]

PAF was flying the aircraft that used the technology of the 60's hence it would have been very dificult for the pilots to jump directly on to the Rafale. This was also the reason why PAF refused the EFT when it was offered to PAF.

If PAf would hevce purchased the Mirage 2000's or upgraded their existing Mirages to ROSE standards in the 90's then it would not have been very difficult for PAF to procure the Rafales in 2005.

sir you forget that PAF was using F-16 since 1983 and lots of our Pilots were flying M2k, F-16 C/D and F-15 in ME..so there is no point in saying that PAF has 60's technology..

PAF has been over the years been criticised for having a love affair with the F-16's and the pilots did not want to move away from this is not true. The F-16's are much more user friendly, and were designed in the 70's hence they were capable to compete with the Mirages 2000's. Hence PAF did not see the point in getting the Mirage 2000 which later came to haunt them. Today as the technology is improving so PAF finds it self lagging behind.

sir, PAF men still love and admire Mirages.. love to fly it for another decade....
PAF is not a private entity who just lost to others.. 200mln lives depend of their decision, than how they would lag behind enemy and put the 200 mln lives in danger..

There was " no mai ka laal ' who had the courage to execute A Rahim on the spot---or when the navy launched the Atlantique---the air force knew that enemy aircraft were close by---they never sent protection on their own----.

sir, PAF men says that PN flow to itself and didnt ask for protection...

 

[weqi]

this is not a valid reason that PN didn't asked all these equipments for aiding your intelligence they don't decide on there own

 

[iPhone]

Hi,

I live 10 miles form S B----and it is a day and night difference since that happened---. Tell me what you do---and I will tell you if you are that much integrated---.

As a home owner---I would never buy a new car---. I would always lease it---because if I am in an accident----they cannot sue me---and hold my property hostage---ie equity in my house---or my bank account or other assets.

I always lease my personal cars---. I have lease around 10 vehicles in the last 15 years between me and my wife.

Lease is for those people who change cars often---and not for those who are penny pinchers and count every dime---. It is also for those who want to make lower payments and don't want to deal with the headaches of major service costs after bumper to bumper warranty is over.

I am leasing a honda civic at 200 dollars a month---if I was to buy it with same drive off---it would be 380 a month for 60 months---. My wife forced me to buy a used sienna van---the monthly payment and the cost of upkeep on that used vehicle is more than if I had leased a new Honda Odyssey EX van---which would be around 300 dollars a month for 36 months---with zero maintenance out of my pocket---even oil changes are free.

380 is not in my comfort zone but 200 is---. As a home owner---I carry a 100000---300000 insurance on all cars---even when I had a 2000 dollars commuter toyota corolla---so the insurance does not make any difference for me---.

If you were to finance your mustang for 60 months---your payment would have been around 580 a month---so what was your problem with paying 15000 for 36 months---.

You paid off half the car---you used it for half the time---you could had paid off the balance to own it without bumper to bumper warranty---.

You just got the option of walking away from it after 3 years---if you had owned it afterwards---your bumper to bumper factory warranty was over---other maintenance costs etc etc etc---.

When you finance a car for 60 months to buy---you don't own it after 36 months---you are still upside down in it if you just paid the similar down payment as in your lease---.

I have not seen a single rich person complain about leasing---almost all the highline cars are leased---buying a car does not even come close to modern day leasing---.

Now as for the americans---before I get to them---let me comment on you---my man--you are not as clever as you want to pose and neither do you know the americans either---.

The americans have no access to the J10 and neither do they have it to the JF17---even though they have desperately tried it for the JF17---but were refused---.

The american admin need a VALID excuse to give the aircraft to pakistan as well---they don't want to lose control---. Regardless of if they know that the J10C is potent or not---they would to pressurize their congress and senate to okay the sale for pakistan---it is a game that is being played---that is the game that israel has been playing for the longest---.

As for leasing the J10C---that would have been the best thing---.

Again---let me state---you are not as clever and nor do you know the americans---the adminstration did want to give the F16's to pakistan----it was them that proposed the 400 million dollars usage out of the fund for the F16's and not pakistan---they paved the way for pakistan to only come up with 280 million.

Paf Air chief Sohail Aman is not the brightest star that there is----he caused the death of 30 + airmen at the Budhbir air base at the hands of the terrorists---which was in retaliation to the Paf Chief advertised strike flight on the terrs a short time prior to that---where he claimed to have killed 29 terrorists in the air strike.

Then to top it off---he threatens the U S " if you don't sell to us we will go elsewhere ".

And as for the J10C---with aesa and IRST it is far more advanced than the BLK 52---and it is no slouch in other fields either---leasing the J10C would have given the american admin leverage to force the congress and senate to go thru the F16 sale----.

And I would have bet you that we would have gotten the sabr aesa as well---because if the J10C cae with aesa---the americans wpuld not be changing the balance of power.

And for your information again---even the U S senator stated---sell them the F16's---otherwise they will go elsewhere and we WILL LOSE CONTROL---.

Pakistan is americas "-----"---the U S won't let go of it easily---.

Well sir, what can I say, you really are a good salesman. So good that you almost convinced me again to lease car and I'm on the east coast, at least 8 hours away from you.

You lease cars all the time, great it works for you, it's all good. But your reasons don't make much sense and others are just plain sales pitch. You Lease because you don't wanna get sued in case of an accident? Sir, that's why we have car insurances.

I pay 125 bucks a month, full coverage, on my used Camery hybrid, that covers 50k bodily harm and upto 100k property damage. So, short of mangling a mfker up, I think I'm good and covered. And I'm a homeowner like you with over 300k in home equity.

And less service and maintenance fees on a leased car? Free oil changes? You mean that ONE free oil change you get after you close the deal? Sir, you are so good at your job that you forget you're on an internet forum board, not selling cars at your dealership.

And the Americans have no clue about the capablities of the j10? What do the Chinese have a f-35 or a spaceship that the Americans don't know it's capabilities?

You know as well as I do that ordinary people require a car that gets them from A to B. A used Japanese made with low maintenance that can last 10 years. But people get dazzled into this mythic world that car salesmen create for them. Much like you did up there in favor of leasing.

Paf also falls into the same catagory. They can utilize the funds sanely on a potent platform that serves them for a couple of decades and they can do that without experimenting and blowing their money on leasing a Ferrari when the job can as easily be done by buying a pre-owned Honda Accord.

Btw, did I tell you upon turning the Mustang in the salesman tried to get me to lease a Porsche for 60 months all for the awesome price of 475 a month? What a deal, right? But I am in the market for another car though right now.

 

[CHI RULES]

Hi,

I live 10 miles form S B----and it is a day and night difference since that happened---. Tell me what you do---and I will tell you if you are that much integrated---.

As a home owner---I would never buy a new car---. I would always lease it---because if I am in an accident----they cannot sue me---and hold my property hostage---ie equity in my house---or my bank account or other assets.

I always lease my personal cars---. I have lease around 10 vehicles in the last 15 years between me and my wife.

Lease is for those people who change cars often---and not for those who are penny pinchers and count every dime---. It is also for those who want to make lower payments and don't want to deal with the headaches of major service costs after bumper to bumper warranty is over.

I am leasing a honda civic at 200 dollars a month---if I was to buy it with same drive off---it would be 380 a month for 60 months---. My wife forced me to buy a used sienna van---the monthly payment and the cost of upkeep on that used vehicle is more than if I had leased a new Honda Odyssey EX van---which would be around 300 dollars a month for 36 months---with zero maintenance out of my pocket---even oil changes are free.

380 is not in my comfort zone but 200 is---. As a home owner---I carry a 100000---300000 insurance on all cars---even when I had a 2000 dollars commuter toyota corolla---so the insurance does not make any difference for me---.

If you were to finance your mustang for 60 months---your payment would have been around 580 a month---so what was your problem with paying 15000 for 36 months---.

You paid off half the car---you used it for half the time---you could had paid off the balance to own it without bumper to bumper warranty---.

You just got the option of walking away from it after 3 years---if you had owned it afterwards---your bumper to bumper factory warranty was over---other maintenance costs etc etc etc---.

When you finance a car for 60 months to buy---you don't own it after 36 months---you are still upside down in it if you just paid the similar down payment as in your lease---.

I have not seen a single rich person complain about leasing---almost all the highline cars are leased---buying a car does not even come close to modern day leasing---.

Now as for the americans---before I get to them---let me comment on you---my man--you are not as clever as you want to pose and neither do you know the americans either---.

The americans have no access to the J10 and neither do they have it to the JF17---even though they have desperately tried it for the JF17---but were refused---.

The american admin need a VALID excuse to give the aircraft to pakistan as well---they don't want to lose control---. Regardless of if they know that the J10C is potent or not---they would to pressurize their congress and senate to okay the sale for pakistan---it is a game that is being played---that is the game that israel has been playing for the longest---.

As for leasing the J10C---that would have been the best thing---.

Again---let me state---you are not as clever and nor do you know the americans---the adminstration did want to give the F16's to pakistan----it was them that proposed the 400 million dollars usage out of the fund for the F16's and not pakistan---they paved the way for pakistan to only come up with 280 million.

Paf Air chief Sohail Aman is not the brightest star that there is----he caused the death of 30 + airmen at the Budhbir air base at the hands of the terrorists---which was in retaliation to the Paf Chief advertised strike flight on the terrs a short time prior to that---where he claimed to have killed 29 terrorists in the air strike.

Then to top it off---he threatens the U S " if you don't sell to us we will go elsewhere ".

And as for the J10C---with aesa and IRST it is far more advanced than the BLK 52---and it is no slouch in other fields either---leasing the J10C would have given the american admin leverage to force the congress and senate to go thru the F16 sale----.

And I would have bet you that we would have gotten the sabr aesa as well---because if the J10C cae with aesa---the americans wpuld not be changing the balance of power.

And for your information again---even the U S senator stated---sell them the F16's---otherwise they will go elsewhere and we WILL LOSE CONTROL---.

Pakistan is americas "-----"---the U S won't let go of it easily---.

It's good to see that even living for long time in USA u are still ready to oppose US tech, on thje other hand the J10C acquisition logic of yours is quite sensible in current scenario however we should look for two points.
1) Engine and Systems reliability regarding J10 ( due to some negative recent past reviews)
2) Availability of J10c for exports to Pak.

 

[Zarvan]

A friend has claimed that we should expect to hear big news about SU-35 and also MIG-35 soon. Along with Air Force Shareef family is also involved in trying to make this deal possible. @Windjammer @MastanKhan

 

[volatile]

SU35 quite plausible but Mig 35 interesting news ,Russians are looking for some one for Mig35 specially after major orders are taken by Sukhoi corp these days Migs are not doing well .So lets see.Fact is we need an offensive weapons as we are so small with depth and other assets .Best defense is offense .