J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[volatile]

72 brand new F16s!
rumours, hearsay and nonsense you have to throw..nothing more

Gripen was not just about spare parts.
Case of south african airforce as point, bought I think 26 original Gripens, got fed up with very expensive service contract with Saab, decided to do it themselves, now they have put all of these in storage after just trying to keep about 8 in air.
A friend once joked that europeans have converted their jets into trojan horses, you let one in and out comes a legion of service personnel.
How are european less likely to impose sanctions during a war, historically they have imposed sanctions as fast as US, this is the lessons we learnt from 65/71, german even during peacetime keep showing moods, why should it be different in next war? in case of F-16 we can keep servicing it on our own and may have backdoor supply channels in case of war as well.. less said the better.

Now the real question is why do you consider Rafale better than F-16, I am hoping for intelligent answers or questions. Please avoid gibberish like kill switches or F-16 unable to fly towards east etc.

How are we ending up putting eggs in one basket?
We have F-16s, for which we have a strategy to fight off sanctions.
We have Mirages, which will keep getting cannibalised until retirement but independent of any influence.
F7s, no chance of supply issues even if war start now.
JF-17s which are also free from any sanctions issues and will replace most of F-7s and some of Mirages.

How inducting Gripen, Rafale or EF will lessen the chances of sanctions?
They are not only highly sanctions prone but also even servicing them requires relying heavily on their manufacturers and their availability (because of problems servicing them on our own) in case of war will go down the drain very quickly.

You failed to answer all my logics and just trying to write not to understand but to reply me back with the likes of you its just the wastage of time ,Time comes and know who is right but F16 new or old are nowhere to be seen until unless we give away tactical nukes .yes that's the catch this all things are building upon for something bigger .US F16 are honey trap why i say do you know how much we were to pay for this transaction from our pocket ? None ,so who is giving us free stuff and for what reason you ever think of that but my friend your emotions are in your way to see a larger picture . F16 are US assets Yes they are for every operator these are regardless of money you pay or not ,Its even required US approval do you ever think why its like that ? Since these jets are pron to come with these conditions ,The real question whether you are going to plan your front line fighter with so many IFs n Butts or have some other assets sanction free

 

[ghazi768]

You failed to answer all my logics and just trying to write not to understand but to reply me back with the likes of you its just the wastage of time ,Time comes and know who is right but F16 new or old are nowhere to be seen until unless we give away tactical nukes .yes that's the catch this all things are building upon for something bigger .US F16 are honey trap why i say do you know how much we were to pay for this transaction from our pocket ? None ,so who is giving us free stuff and for what reason you ever think of that but my friend your emotions are in your way to see a larger picture . F16 are US assets Yes they are for every operator these are regardless of money you pay or not ,Its even required US approval do you ever think why its like that ? Since these jets are pron to come with these conditions ,The real question whether you are going to plan your front line fighter with so many IFs n Butts or have some other assets sanction free

How it is without logic?

This is what you actually wrote and I tried to discuss:

Care to explain what hold and cold decisions criteria it was .Gripen we understood too many foreign parts but Rafale rejection why .Ok on papers F16 for example was so good why we are looking for something to counter .Ok I agree with you F16 for a min is better then Rafale but my friend where are the F16 wait they are blocked congrats what a strategy .In finance and in business and similarly for any principle you dont put all your eggs in a single basket .F16 are potent but we are not Israel . We should have learned the lesson while we can 65/71/90/2015 history repeating it self

Hard to get ,sanctioned prone ,in time of war No wonder what will happened .

I am amazed at how you find what I have mentioned above or in quotes your two replies are logical and coherent.

Have you mentioned any hard facts in terms of turn rates or AOA or else for VWR or data about BVR combat for what you are professing should have been bought?
Or do you have knowledge of service hours or sortie rates and these are the issue?
Or you have some confirmation not even known to PAF that what you think was the best jet to be bought will still be serviced by french or swedes during the war?

What you are basically presenting is either fear or suspicions.

Now fear mentioned is we have to give tactical nukes?

Really! why? if they do not even give us a single more jet, how the hell they will make us give up nukes?

Now suspicion I think you have is that they are giving us F-16 for some other ulterior reason. OFFCOURCE you are right on the target. But how does it make upgrading your previous F-16s with more additions a bad choice for your fighter fleet?

Again you mentioned a suspicions about "coming with conditions" which basically is same gibberish argument of kill switch/not being able to employ on eastern front. As to my knowledge there are no such 'conditions', US can say whatever they need to placate Indian protests, their main cause of concern were 'undue' transfer of technology to our ally and friend and some steps were taken to satiate that, that is all.

Basing your logic on such fears and suspicions and you are blaming me for wresting my arguments on IF and BUTS. Please...

 

[volatile]

I am amazed at how you find what I have mentioned above or in quotes your two replies are logical and coherent.

Have you mentioned any hard facts in terms of turn rates or AOA or else for VWR or data about BVR combat for what you are professing should have been bought?
Or do you have knowledge of service hours or sortie rates and these are the issue?
Or you have some confirmation not even known to PAF that what you think was the best jet to be bought will still be serviced by french or swedes during the war?

What you are basically presenting is either fear or suspicions.

Now fear mentioned is we have to give tactical nukes?

Really! why? if they do not even give us a single more jet, how the hell they will make us give up nukes?

Now suspicion I think you have is that they are giving us F-16 for some other ulterior reason. OFFCOURCE you are right on the target. But how does it make upgrading your previous F-16s with more additions a bad choice for your fighter fleet?

Again you mentioned a suspicions about "coming with conditions" which basically is same gibberish argument of kill switch/not being able to employ on eastern front. As to my knowledge there are no such 'conditions', US can say whatever they need to placate Indian protests, their main cause of concern were 'undue' transfer of technology to our ally and friend and some steps were taken to satiate that, that is all.
Basing your logic on such fears and suspicions and you are blaming me for wresting my arguments on IF and BUTS. Please...

My friend again this makes the point even clearer how you see this platform and how i and some other see this .Your arguments are based on technical performance and other parameters ,now tell me at which of my post i have said F16 is a shitty plane ? No it is not infact it is proven and potent platform Now we have settled the score of AoA and AIM and other bla bla .Now comes the doctrine part .Do you know Why soviets won the 2nd WW against Germans other than Cold weather its the sheer number of low inferior tanks they were able to send and challenged the mighty German tanks . Now see this in perspective we have a war tomorrow with India .76 F16 block 52 + ,We have 500 AIM coupled with that do you think these are good numbers ? Consider there are sanctions and Americans positioned in F16 bases in Pak ensure they are not flown .I will put you history again F14 Tomcat at Shah of Iran times ,American technicians made sure to sabotage majority of these . Ok Now if nothing based on you opinion happened (famous kill switch theory is there ) and if it 1% plausible imagine what will happened 76 out of 150 odd 4+ gen in our inventory today . F16 is a great plane what it doesn't fit in our planing why US has proved that when ever they wanted they can make us suffer for F16 . Times are gone when IAF pilots feared PAF pilots they have placed decent structures and have both qualitative and quantitative adv over us . Even admitted by PAF pilots as well . Its better to induct AESA JF17 200 then any more F16 ,Regarding Rafale you are missing the whole point its not about planes its about diplomacy which we loose ,Today other than China we dont have any one to bail us out its the same policies we followed . Mirages 3/5 in our inventory have served well and even took a lead in many of our operations over F16 now for a moment its hard for me to imagine French are so Idiot to replace all mirages with Rafale its the natural product life cycle ,F16 has done it and its era is gone .Only way F16 will be relevant if it comes with SABR (which is not happening)

 

[MastanKhan]

This thread is getting distracted from its topic but lets have one more go.

Who will decide about what best to purchase for PAF.. used car sales men. And pilot should go on a rampage against idiocies and insane decisions of used car sales men and start evangelising about which cars are best to purchase..

I know one guy is on some kind of personal crusade on this forum and amazingly his knowledge about flying or tactics or technology involved is abysmal. He does not eve know about trimming but profess expertise in purchasing advanced jet.. face palm..

These arguments,rumours of PAF giving up on it because of earthquake is nonsense.

PAF was never interested in Rafale.full stop.
Go have whatever about the raves you had about what ever shining toy you wanted to see in PAF colors but that is the hard truth.

Hi,

Tell me---as a fighter pilot what access to information that you have more than me---.

Those days are long gone when information was hidden and secret----now it is available to everyone who wants to look for it.

And fighter pilots must not make decisions on the type of aircraft---they can only give the duidelines---but in the paf--that is what happens.

Why would there would be a lesser chance of sanctions---that is difficut for the thick heads in paf to understand---.

You should have read the american senators statement just a few days ago---let us sell them the F16's otherwise they will go elsewhere and we will not have any control over what they do.

So---sanctions will only be imposed when they can work----when you have an option---an aircraft from a different nation who does not want to sanction you---so that would defeat the purpose pf the sanctions and you will still maintain your ability to fight.

Was that so difficult to understand----. Just keep your day job of flying---.

This thread is getting distracted from its topic but lets have one more go.

Who will decide about what best to purchase for PAF.. used car sales men. And pilot should go on a rampage against idiocies and insane decisions of used car sales men and start evangelising about which cars are best to purchase..

I know one guy is on some kind of personal crusade on this forum and amazingly his knowledge about flying or tactics or technology involved is abysmal. He does not eve know about trimming but profess expertise in purchasing advanced jet.. face palm..

These arguments,rumours of PAF giving up on it because of earthquake is nonsense.

PAF was never interested in Rafale.full stop.
Go have whatever about the raves you had about what ever shining toy you wanted to see in PAF colors but that is the hard truth.

Son,

You are lucky that I don't have access to sit on the live tv in pakistan---otherwise---I would rake you blue uniforms over coals---and when the people would learn that the traitors that you are---that hate would destroy you.

So---if Rafale was not considered---then why not---. That was the next tier up from M2k---and immediate successor to the indians----who would not go for the american aircraft----and the Rafale would have met and exceeded pakistans needs.

So---why that route was not followed---. It would have totally sabotaged the indian game plan and they would be left with some serious issues----.

Off course a pilot can tell which one is the best car---information is free----but a GOOD salesman does not sell the BEST CAR----it is what is best for the consumer---and what they need.


In the first 1-2 minutes of my conversation with the customer---I know what kind of car they need---they may not want to get it---that is a different story---in a similar manner---and educated person with good and decent knowledge about the subject can know very well what kind of aircraft does the Paf need.

What does the pilot know---other than to love his aircraft. Read up on books written by retd U S pilots---see what they say---they were put into aircrafts they hated to fly but ended up loving them in the end.

That is why I say---if I can force the JH7B's with aesa on the Paf----in 2 years time---they will not have enough words to praise that aircraft.

It is a human nature to keep in a secure area and be with things that they are familiar with. That is what Paf's mentality is---secure is good ---known is predictable---unknown is fearful.

You boyz in blue are lucky that the indians that you face are bigger idiots than you are---.

sir, i will second you on car salesmen but only for sales of JF-17 and other products, as we have already seen a car dealer is in the sales of F-17 to SL..
but for purchase we need typical old minded man who can bargain until he gets what he want to at his own conditions..


and after 2-3 year when Germans got to know that PN just fooling her nation on subs deal.. they show middle finger to PN and said get lost we don't have time to waste..


difference is good for positive growth..


there is the difference between Israelis and Pakistanis, israelis migrated from all over world to israel, so they have only one option-- do --or-- die..
but Pakistanis(high ranks) migrated to all over the world from Pakistan and actually they also have only one option --- collect as many as you can to migrate-- or -- you have to live in Pakistan..



F-16 has been prohibited by its creature to go to east, if it went ahead without it's creatures will, F-16 will die..


a sane person will never repeat his same mistake which has almost kill him... but... but.. but.
Lover will repeat his mistakes until he gets his love or die..
there is a saying in Sindhi for the lover.."ashiq majboor aa bhaly kedo be kandhar hujy" in english "Romeo is helpless even though he is powerful".


i think you should have to read again my comment.. i clearly say with MLUed = upgraded F-16..


i think you don;t know that French were happy to sell their radars and missiles for F-17 but MMRCA did her magic..
and as for French and chinese cooperation, Airbus is making her helicopter in china , and there are lots of JV between French companies and Chinese companies...


F-17 and rafale are from different categories. F-17 is light-weight and is used for interception and air defence.. but rafale is medium-weight and is very near to heavy-weight and is used for SEAD, DEAD, deep-strike, etc. there is not any comparing between them.. ..
rafale had hard time because at initial years, from 2002-2007 most countries in MENA has already ordered for F-16 because of WoT..and then global recession comes in 2008 and from 2010 to 2013 whole MENA region was struggling with Arab Spring.uprising...
almost every country in MENA region still 3rd gen fighter and they are more than 30+ years old and that needs replacements.. French are businessmen they won;t mind because they would be earning money on radars and weapons from F-17 sales..



if i'm not wrong mica has range of 50+km and that is more than ok for indo-pak war scenario...

Hi,

The MMRCA did the magic was---because we did not have the ' GLUE " to hold the Jf17 deal together.

The Rafale would have been the GLUE---or even 50-60 M2K's as well---. Any of these two major deals would have been the glue to keep the JF17 avionics deal alive.

See---when there is LOVE & camaradrie--you go the extra step of doing things.

How often to do we make these deals in our daily lives with our kids---you do this and I will do this for you---there is a candy or a popsicle at the end---or a movie or a hamburger---whatever---but there is give and take.

Rafale was the game changer in the arena---giving a new life to French aircraft industry---and the French would have favored the JF17 avionics---.

Just like president Reagan---how many times did he sign off on pakistan's non nuclear status---many times---because there was something happening between pakistan and the U S----.

Bottomline is---it is all about give and take---. Incidently---Paf has been on take take and take---now that uncle Sam had taken away its candy bar---it does not know what to do.

Hi,

The question was never about the ability of the F16 BLK 52---it is an extremely potent aircraft---the best in the indo pak arena at this time---.

The question is all about the strings attached to it. If the poster does not understand that part---then let them bang their heads against the wall.

 

[Av8er]

How it is without logic?

This is what you actually wrote and I tried to discuss:

Care to explain what hold and cold decisions criteria it was .Gripen we understood too many foreign parts but Rafale rejection why .Ok on papers F16 for example was so good why we are looking for something to counter .Ok I agree with you F16 for a min is better then Rafale but my friend where are the F16 wait they are blocked congrats what a strategy .In finance and in business and similarly for any principle you dont put all your eggs in a single basket .F16 are potent but we are not Israel . We should have learned the lesson while we can 65/71/90/2015 history repeating it self

Hard to get ,sanctioned prone ,in time of war No wonder what will happened .

I am amazed at how you find what I have mentioned above or in quotes your two replies are logical and coherent.

Have you mentioned any hard facts in terms of turn rates or AOA or else for VWR or data about BVR combat for what you are professing should have been bought?
Or do you have knowledge of service hours or sortie rates and these are the issue?
Or you have some confirmation not even known to PAF that what you think was the best jet to be bought will still be serviced by french or swedes during the war?

What you are basically presenting is either fear or suspicions.

Now fear mentioned is we have to give tactical nukes?

Really! why? if they do not even give us a single more jet, how the hell they will make us give up nukes?

Now suspicion I think you have is that they are giving us F-16 for some other ulterior reason. OFFCOURCE you are right on the target. But how does it make upgrading your previous F-16s with more additions a bad choice for your fighter fleet?

Again you mentioned a suspicions about "coming with conditions" which basically is same gibberish argument of kill switch/not being able to employ on eastern front. As to my knowledge there are no such 'conditions', US can say whatever they need to placate Indian protests, their main cause of concern were 'undue' transfer of technology to our ally and friend and some steps were taken to satiate that, that is all.

Basing your logic on such fears and suspicions and you are blaming me for wresting my arguments on IF and BUTS. Please...

May I suggest you protect your sanity and not try and convince these self appointed experts who think they have all the knowledge they need from googling it. They have no respect for our forces nor for those who serve in it.

 

[MastanKhan]

gibberish argument of kill switch/not being able to employ on eastern front. As to my knowledge there are no such 'conditions', US can say whatever they need to placate Indian protests, their main cause of concern were 'undue' transfer of technology to our ally and friend and some steps were taken to satiate that, that is all.

.

Hi,

Just because you are fighter pilot does not mean you are qualified to know these things----I mean to say---your ignorance has to have limits.

It is a part of the requirement of Homeland Security in the U S---every aircraft that operates in the U S or made by the U S after 2008 has to have a kill switch in it----and do you know what homeland security is----it is the agency that overshadows all security related agencies in the U S

Meaning all aircraft---and not only those that are sold to foreign countries----have kill switches.

Some of our lenders put kill switches on cars they finance as well as tracking devices---.

Fleet vehicles have the same---kill switches and tracking devices---so that the company knows where the vehicle is at all time.

In big rigs trucks---it also tell the company headquarter---what the engine oil temperature is---what the transmission oil temperature is---it tells about what the radiator fluid temperature is---it tells in advance about any problems occuring in the system live.

These thing are in highline cars as well and some mid level cars also.

What world are you living in guy----here is a link of tracking devices

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...=UTF-8#q=fleet tracking device no monthly fee

and here is a link to tracking device and kill switches for autos---starting at 150 dollars---

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...F-8#q=fleet+tracking+device+and+kill+switches

 

[volatile]

May I suggest you protect your sanity and not try and convince these self appointed experts who think they have all the knowledge they need from googling it. They have no respect for the our forces nor for those who serve in it.

No love ! My friend this is the height of love for mother land ,difference of opinion exists and what some members along my self are posting is not about discrediting or personal vendetta to any one but to share how world business is done .Its not about Specs any more i will share a short lesson i have learned ,In ind im working all our business team have done all the things to acquire one of the biggest steel giant but to no avail ,even offered good prices ,long term service agreement no one was offering ,one fine day there proposal manager who happens to be my old class fellow came upto me and said listen buddy stop wasting your time ,We are partners of your competitors irrespective of pricing our balance sheets are moving together we simply cant move away our business .So any other day our specs and services are way better than any one else but this business will never happened why this is how world works . If some one feels disrespected the idea is not to personalize but do listen to the people who have seen it all even though some times examples seems childish to you but these achievements lead to make a person wherever he is .Lessons are every where to learn its the mindset which should be ready .

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

My apologies to differ with you.

this is the very same rafale which we reject 10 years ago, now we are searching to other jets to counter it, because our F-16 blk52 are not going to counter it..

This is not true. I suspect that most guys here read some lists on internet about top fighter or go read some stuff on marketing sites of these fighters, or may be view few YouTube videos and than start having some opinion or a sort of a rave on some fighter.
This is not the case, First fighter platforms are part of a big system which needs to work all together, operations and tactics all get streamlined according to the whole system. the picture is far more complicated than looking at two different jet fighters on one on one.

But even than give me some solid reasons why an F-16 bulk 52+ will not be able to counter a Rafale whether on one to one or in team fight in BVR or WVR and than we can discuss this further.

and choosing F-16 in 2005 was not a strategic decision but it was a love affair..

It is not about having some love affair with F-16s, this is just misinformation spread around. It was a cold and hard decision. Give me a reason why you think it was a love affair.

AIM-120-C5 can be integrated in rafale along with mlued F-16..

But why, why US will give us AIM-120s, will china be ready to export one of their best AAMs to another country without a fighter platform even if we request them to do so?
These things do not work like this, IAF is now getting Rafales let us see if they can also get AIM-120s without buying a US fighter platform.

there will be not any hurdle for subsystem for F-17 and there will be similarity in subsystems between F-17 rafale, which will eventually reduced the maintenance hurdle for them...

Why not? you never explained this.
Basically french balked at allowing Chinese near their systems. First hurdle will be that if you are going to use mission control system with chinese assistance than how will you persuade french to allow them access to their radar and spectra's subsystems to help us integrate it into JF-17. On the other hand if we just give up to having source code for mission control systems and subsystems than we also give up any chance to integrate chinese systems and weapons. Also we'll always be beholden to French when ever we need to integrate anything in Jf-17 avionics or even modify it. It will practically be an 'indigenous' fighter only in name, nothing more.

and sale of F-17 will not be any issue because france will be the partner with F-17, and they have more influence in MENA region... where most of the countries operate Mirages and F-17 would be their replacement...

No, I do not agree with this, this is just wishful thinking. Why would french allow a much cheaper jet to have same avionics as their own and very expensive jet. This would have lynched any chances of sales of Rafale. If you can remember, Rafale was in the works in late 90s and I think started getting inducted by 2002 in France but had lot of trouble finding sales and did this in from I think 2015 onward.

there is not any such issue with Mica, and in Pak-Ind war scenario, there is not any much need for Long Range AAM
Why? why there is not an issue with its range. Although I do know very well about Ropt,Rtr,Rmin ranges of atlas our systems or competing ones but give me a solid reason in terms of figures or if you have a new doctrine about BVR than please elaborate.

PAF was flying the aircraft that used the technology of the 60's hence it would have been very dificult for the pilots to jump directly on to the Rafale. This was also the reason why PAF refused the EFT when it was offered to PAF.

If PAf would hevce purchased the Mirage 2000's or upgraded their existing Mirages to ROSE standards in the 90's then it would not have been very difficult for PAF to procure the Rafales in 2005.

PAF has been over the years been criticised for having a love affair with the F-16's and the pilots did not want to move away from this is not true. The F-16's are much more user friendly, and were designed in the 70's hence they were capable to compete with the Mirages 2000's. Hence PAF did not see the point in getting the Mirage 2000 which later came to haunt them. Today as the technology is improving so PAF finds it self lagging behind.

The French have a habit of supplying equipment to both sides of the conflict as long as they get he right price. Libya was offered the Rafales for a very high cost and later the same aircraft was used to bomb them.

What happened to the MMRCA deal with India it went from 129 fighter aircraft to only 36 aircraft from 15 billion to 22 billion and back to 5 billion USD. If Pakistan has the cash the French would sell them the aircraft even if they have to find a way to get rid of the contract clause that India has tried to incorporate.

They have other ways...Remember the Israel espionage to procure the blue prints of the aircraft...

 

[MastanKhan]

I always enjoy your comments,

If i remember right, the German Sub 214 was considered the best AIP submarine at that time. it was better than scorpion subs, and if i remember right, it was the Germans that blocked the sale to Pak. Let me know if my memory is correct?

Also whats done in the past, is in the past. What do you think should be the move forward for PAF?

Hi,

Thank you for your post---the thing is most of the time--the best is not the best----it is the second best that will prove to be the best.

Same thing with the German U214----thre navy did not take the temperature of the german public---they had a serious anti pakistan sentiment.

France on the otoh---had never had any religious issues regarding any weapons sales---. German economy was good---they were not concerned about labor issues---the French had their concerns---.

So---basically---right from the gitgo---France would be a better supplier---they are in need---we are in need---so we are partners---plus we need to equip our JF17---so that would be an icing on the cake for the French and for us.

If there would have been no delays on avionics---we would have been sitting on 150 + JF17's with french avionics and missiles by now---these 150 aircraft as capable as the F16's in many areas.

To go for the best---we screwed up the naval procurement----we screwed up the air force procurement---pure and simple idiocy.

They have other ways...Remember the Israel espionage to procure the blue prints of the aircraft...

Hi,

Most pakistanis don't know that the French put sanctions on the israelis in the 60's or early 70's and would not give them the mirages.

The israelis were deperate---they heard from the grapevine that the swiss had the blue prints in a storage area---. They found the location---bribed the storage manager and security---and took the blue prints.

Now just for your information----they were not a sheet or two----they were about 2 TONS of blue prints---they used a VW minibus and made several trips to get the blue print boxes before the swiss govt could find what was happening.

 

[Centurion2016]

J10 looks like a euro canard.

Airframe wise it looks very potent.

But I am 100% certain the chinease cockpt avionics ew suites and weapons package is a decade behind the west

I think the reason the PAF have not pursued the J10 they know deep down its inferior to the F16s and thereby potentially inferior to both the miraghe2000/5 and su30mki ......PAFS great adversary.

Spending hard earned cash on a inferior platform does not stack up foir PAF.

if the rafales deal is signed this month or next has suggested by india the PAF will have to look to Typhon or wait for decade to try and buy J31.

 

[ghazi768]

Hi,

Just because you are fighter pilot does not mean you are qualified to know these things----I mean to say---your ignorance has to have limits.

It is a part of the requirement of Homeland Security in the U S---every aircraft that operates in the U S or made by the U S after 2008 has to have a kill switch in it----and do you know what homeland security is----it is the agency that overshadows all security related agencies in the U S

Meaning all aircraft---and not only those that are sold to foreign countries----have kill switches.

Some of our lenders put kill switches on cars they finance as well as tracking devices---.

Fleet vehicles have the same---kill switches and tracking devices---so that the company knows where the vehicle is at all time.

In big rigs trucks---it also tell the company headquarter---what the engine oil temperature is---what the transmission oil temperature is---it tells about what the radiator fluid temperature is---it tells in advance about any problems occuring in the system live.

These thing are in highline cars as well and some mid level cars also.

What world are you living in guy----here is a link of tracking devices

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=fleet tracking device no monthly fee

and here is a link to tracking device and kill switches for autos---starting at 150 dollars---

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...F-8#q=fleet+tracking+device+and+kill+switches

Yes, you are qualified to know things because you are the GREAT CAR SALES MAN.
fleet management implying kill switches...
You are basically a troll, thanks a lot I always wondered what an internet troll means.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hi,

Most pakistanis don't know that the French put sanctions on the israelis in the 60's or early 70's and would not give them the mirages.

The israelis were deperate---they heard from the grapevine that the swiss had the blue prints in a storage area---. They found the location---bribed the storage manager and security---and took the blue prints.

Now just for your information----they were not a sheet or two----they were about 2 TONS of blue prints---they used a VW minibus and made several trips to get the blue print boxes before the swiss govt could find what was happening.

Hi,
That was the 60's hence they had to use VW, today all information is saved on computers...You know there are many instances when industrial espionage has been done by children sitting in their bedrooms.

Some time back USA and China agreed not to hack into each others computers and get the information. Still it is not a secret that this does not happen any more.

 

[Imad.Khan]

Hi,

Same thing with the German U214----thre navy did not take the temperature of the german public---they had a serious anti pakistan sentiment.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge but why did the German public have anti-Pakistan sentiments.

So what do you think the PAF should do now

 

[MastanKhan]

Yes, you are qualified to know things because you are the GREAT CAR SALES MAN.
fleet management implying kill switches...
You are basically a troll, thanks a lot I always wondered what an internet troll means.

Sonny boy,

If you don't know who ' homelan d s ecurity ' is---then look it up----. It is their rule that all commercial / military aircraft manufactured in the U S---sold to other countries or commercial aircraft flying into the U S of foreign make will have kill switches installed by the factory from 2007-08 onwards---.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge but why did the German public have anti-Pakistan sentiments.

So what do you think the PAF should do now

Hi,

Because pakistanis are a known corrupt nation in the world that has been blamed for terrorist activities and whose leaders and military don't speak up for their nation.

So what do you think the PAF should do now

Hi,

Pakistan has been basically screwed by the PAF---. Paf decided after 2002 that there was not going to be any war between the two nations---so they did not show any urgency to buy the fighter aircraft.

TRhey have single handedly sabotaged the defence of pakistan----an enemy could not do more damage to pakistan what Paf has done---.

It is the Sirajud Daulah moment---when the britsh armies were on the move---the muslim armies on one side---canons ready and Mir Qasim ordered take the cover off the container of gun pwder----it was raining---the gund pwder gpt wet and cannons could not fire---.

No muslim general had the courage to chop off Mir Qasims head----. Just like no air marshall had the courage to execute Air Chief Marshall A Rahim---when the call came that there were enemy missile boats sighted coming towards karachi harbor and a request to launch mirages to recee was denied---stating ' let navy handle its problems '-----.

There was " no mai ka laal ' who had the courage to execute A Rahim on the spot---or when the navy launched the Atlantique---the air force knew that enemy aircraft were close by---they never sent protection on their own----.

There was and is no mindset of " I am my brothers keeper ". They are out and out traitors.

That is why---I say---the air force heirarchy needs the north Korean defence minister treatment---.

 

[ghazi768]

PAF was flying the aircraft that used the technology of the 60's hence it would have been very dificult for the pilots to jump directly on to the Rafale. This was also the reason why PAF refused the EFT when it was offered to PAF.

If PAf would hevce purchased the Mirage 2000's or upgraded their existing Mirages to ROSE standards in the 90's then it would not have been very difficult for PAF to procure the Rafales in 2005.

PAF has been over the years been criticised for having a love affair with the F-16's and the pilots did not want to move away from this is not true. The F-16's are much more user friendly, and were designed in the 70's hence they were capable to compete with the Mirages 2000's. Hence PAF did not see the point in getting the Mirage 2000 which later came to haunt them. Today as the technology is improving so PAF finds it self lagging behind.

The French have a habit of supplying equipment to both sides of the conflict as long as they get he right price. Libya was offered the Rafales for a very high cost and later the same aircraft was used to bomb them.

What happened to the MMRCA deal with India it went from 129 fighter aircraft to only 36 aircraft from 15 billion to 22 billion and back to 5 billion USD. If Pakistan has the cash the French would sell them the aircraft even if they have to find a way to get rid of the contract clause that India has tried to incorporate.

They have other ways...Remember the Israel espionage to procure the blue prints of the aircraft...

I just hope that you will not get offended by my replying to your post and also will result in a healthy, logical discussion. My apologies if you mind anything.

Now I am new to this forum so I do not know what used to occur years back. But from replies and posts which I have read recently, what I think is that there is some type of low esteem issue. I have read how indians trolls on PDF, how they copy paste stuff from internet and than start chest thumping and most guys I think have never even seen a radar screen in real life or how those avionics work or have used the stick in cockpit other than fiddling with their own. So they basically do what they can at best do, matching specs provided on public internet and trying to fathom which is better. With indians trolling and chest thumping especially after Rafale purchase (I can just imagine how much chest thumping they would have done for Su-30 from this), this inability to respond had turned into a desire for some to some how get a jet they can also chest thump about and they want a Gripen or a EFT or a Su-35 or even a J-10. For some, may be mixed with patriotism, it has turned into such anguish which they are now venting out against PAF. I have come to conclusion that there is no point or use in trying to argue against it.

Case is point: After lot of non-coherent replies and refusing that he considers any issue with F-16 and skirting providing any thing concrete in terms of operations against buying F-16s, this volatile guy in the end mentioned: F16 has done it and its era is gone .Only way F16 will be relevant if it comes with SABR (which is not happening). The issue basically is they need to have some AESA or some 'advanced' avionics with public data available on net which they can throw in the face of indian trolls and do some chest thumping of their own.

Now about what you mentioned about Pakistan not buying EFT, or M2K or Rafale, I think we'll just keep going in circles but I ask you a simple question to ponder on. If fire control radars in fighter aircraft were so much pivotal than why everyone is trying so hard to build highly agile and capable dogfighters?

If EFT was such an excellent fighter that it can eclipse every other fighter than why is that EFT pilots feel so much proud of their 'virtual kills' against F22 that they proudly display these on their jets and Rafale guys actually released a couple of videos on net too about it. Putting your 'virtual kills' on jet before that was unheard of and not practiced before that. If F22 guys also start putting their virtual kills of EFTs, Rafales,F-16s etc there will be no place left on those jets. But the case in point, the jet which most probably accumulated most 'virtual kills' against F22s were neither EFTs or Rafales, they were F-16s of USAF aggressor squadrons.

In terms of radar and BVR combat, jet fighters fire control radars come on a lower rung than other radars it does not matter if they are AESA or MESA in range, in better detection as well as better ECCM, they are on a lower rung. E.g. in Becca vally air war, most Israeli fighter even did not turn on their radars and relied on their AWACS for targeting data for BVR solutions mostly trying to shoot in side along engagements. But even than with such an overwhelming advantage in BVR regime against an airforce which practically had no BVR range capability most of kill occurred in VWR combat.

In short to wrap this up. In 90s, we needed to induct a lot of jets preferably with BVR capability and Mirage 2k was way to expensive and beyond our financial means and also in VWR combat is at best comparable with our older Mirages (actually performed slightly lower because of becoming more heavy) and far below F-16s. So a way was found by purchasing older Mirages and upgrading them.

Rafale, we have already evaluated and did not find it to be a good fit. Its too expensive with higher service hours and lower sortie rates. Its also short legged without its drop tanks, depletes more energy in dogfights which can result in problems in VWR combat if that gets dragged for some time. Basically it is a good long range fighter bomber and that is why IAF is inducting it, without drop tanks it is more like a Mig-29 just a point defence/base defence interceptor albeit with excellent radar.