J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[SQ8]

No, no, I got that very well, that facts are nothing fixed and depend on where the observer is standing.

It's just that I think that people should come up to at least that level, from a level where they're saying, You are yellow and I am brown so you are obviously wrong. Once they do, and we are all agreed that personalities and prejudices shouldn't come into it, we can walk up another flight of stairs and get to what you have stated.

It happens incrementally, chief. Taking them to the top floor is risky; there's always a bozo who wants, needs to look over the unprotected edge.

The problem with that approach is that people coming to that level means that they go to other levels as well. More importantly, a graver issue is that those prejudices and personalities will always come into it and we will never agree.
There is a reason why there are IQ curves and distribution of wealth and knowledge today.
It has to do with education in all disciplines including that of common humanity; the lack of its propagation from inception leads to this inability to leave prejudices that lead to people that support Trump or blow themselves up in a crowd of Shia worshippers.

It is not that they are mostly bad(I believe more in the concept of evil rather than levels of bad or good) people, but people so obsessed with believing that only they have the right path that they are willing to shun any idea of logic. You can being as many facts as you like, but those facts need logic to process.

After all, trying convincing a man who has been taught to think logically and who is blind that it is a fact that many leaves are green due to chlorophyll..and then try convincing one that is illogical and has been told leaves are blue.. even if you restore the eyesight of the illogical one, he will be more likely to reject it as some conspiracy by you to falsly paint leaves green.


In either case, we digress too much.

But to take logic to this thread. Take the proponents of the J-10 and those against it; see what is actual fact (anything from costs to avionics to radar return) true to many aspects of air combat as it is known now, to factless hypothesis on these based on earlier scenarios and some that rarely exist.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The bottom line is----that those who were supposed to get the right aircraft---did not---.

And everything else is an excuse----americans have a wonderful saying about it---" excuse is like an ar-se hole---and everybody's got one ".

So---regadles of who has morre SOB stories to tell about the Paf---and who has MORE PROOF---does not mean diddley in real world scenario---.

There is a war that is going to start at midnight---are you equipped well enough to fight---. Screw the excuses---only apologists have excuses.

 

[volatile]

The air-frame you start from at a Concept level, is a LOT different then when you got to the Wind tunnel testing. Its also a LOT different than when you get to the Prototype and then actual flight testing might require further design changes based on aerodynamics capabilities being received, vs. perceived at the time of design initiation. Meaning, the plane could take multiple shapes and changes and can resemble a lot of different designs.

Mig 1.44 was not a conceptual design or wind tunnel testing model ,it actually existed and fact to the matter Mikhoyan corporation was looking for money as 5th Gen spot was already taken by PAKFA so Chinese jumped in bought existing model /data /blue prints similar case for SU from Ukraine ,So i dont know why you want to chest thump for Chinese indigenous efforts ,Hats off to them that they are able to develop 5th Gen with out proper help .

 

[ghazi768]

Yes. 36 F-16s and 36 more options were reduced to 18+18.

Now what, am I going to reply to a patented indian troll about arguments in a discussion started by MK. Now whatever his anger against PAF, he could hand over an indian troll's behind in couple of posts.

72 F-16 C/Ds with CFTs is still news to me. Why to have SEVENTY TWO F-16s with double radar SAR with no doubt an eye popping resolution and a range with CFTs to salivate about. Also keep in mind F-16-A/Bs in fleet or had been ordered earlier which were now permitted to be delivered and all MLUed to latest as well.

PAF do not give a damn about your terminologies such as 'heavy', 'mid' or whatever. For us it is about capabilities, SAR, BVR, ranges, payloads we need etc. Why have most of our fleet to start immediately depleting if a war starts when we were already working with our friends to ensure against this.

Two sqdns. were planned for F-16 C/Ds, that is all.

Really?

A Rafale needs 8 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight. It can manage 3 sorties a day comfortably. The availability rate in ADLA is 97%.

Yep, almost any good modern fighter accept your Su-30s can manage three sorties a day during a campaign IN START. F-16s and JF-17s and even F-7s have superb turn around time which also is because of the skills and commitment of our maintenance staff. Availability and service hours rate are calculated for a certain duration of a campaign being planned or expected. Go on having delusions about maintaining 8 hours a day per flight hour for a Rafale.

Rafale's fuel fraction is 0.33. Su-30MKI's fuel fraction is 0.34 and MKI is advertised with 3000Km range. And Rafale has a lower drag coefficient and better SFC than MKI. So you can come to your own conclusions.

In comparison the F-16's fuel fraction is just 0.22. As for the Mig-29, its fuel fraction is 0.24.

So is the Rafale still short-legged?

Although you look good fiddling with numbers but can you tell me how you calculated 0.22 internal fuel fraction for F-16 and 0.24 for Mig-29?

Also can you tell me if this "3000 km advertised" is a combat range?

You must be a relatively young indian troll, because there was time when based on findings about Mig-29 combat range there were US analysts which theorised, in print, that this was because of efforts to limit defections AND was hotly debated in airforce circles, I'll be amazed if IAF guys never read,heard or discussed this.

And you are forgetting, most probably conveniently, that Rafale, Su-30, and Mig-29 are all twin engined and F-16 is single engined and will have half SFC of others even if all these jets end up with same engines and same SFC.

Is that so? So its 11G limits are for show? Ever checked its climb rates? Do you know Rafale pilots cannot throttle a lot when fighting the M-2000 because of the fear of overshooting.

Please continue believing that.

Yep, I'll keep believing what my knowledge and experience tell me, you can keep idolate-ing your Rafales, I have no issue with it.

11 G LIMITS, bloody hell, you indian trolls are good at concocting a fact from even a figment of imaginations.. after a 11 g turn what a rafale will do? request opposing F-16 to hand over some of its thrust and energy to stop sinking or may be some airframe parts as well which it may be missing itself. (no apologies for sarcasm)

 

[Beast]

Mig 1.44 was not a conceptual design or wind tunnel testing model ,it actually existed and fact to the matter Mikhoyan corporation was looking for money as 5th Gen spot was already taken by PAKFA so Chinese jumped in bought existing model /data /blue prints similar case for SU from Ukraine ,So i dont know why you want to chest thump for Chinese indigenous efforts ,Hats off to them that they are able to develop 5th Gen with out proper help .

http://sputniknews.com/military/20110826/166209279.html

Russia has never transferred any stealth technology to China to assist it with its J-20 Black Eagle fifth-generation stealth fighter prototype, Russian plane maker MiG said on Friday.

 

[SQ8]

Now what, am I going to reply to a patented indian troll about arguments in a discussion started by MK. Now whatever his anger against PAF, he could hand over an indian troll's behind in couple of posts.

72 F-16 C/Ds with CFTs is still news to me. Why to have SEVENTY TWO F-16s with double radar SAR with no doubt an eye popping resolution and a range with CFTs to salivate about. Also keep in mind F-16-A/Bs in fleet or had been ordered earlier which were now permitted to be delivered and all MLUed to latest as well.

PAF do not give a damn about your terminologies such as 'heavy', 'mid' or whatever. For us it is about capabilities, SAR, BVR, ranges, payloads we need etc. Why have most of our fleet to start immediately depleting if a war starts when we were already working with our friends to ensure against this.

Two sqdns. were planned for F-16 C/Ds, that is all.



Yep, almost any good modern fighter accept your Su-30s can manage three sorties a day during a campaign IN START. F-16s and JF-17s and even F-7s have superb turn around time which also is because of the skills and commitment of our maintenance staff. Availability and service hours rate are calculated for a certain duration of a campaign being planned or expected. Go on having delusions about maintaining 8 hours a day per flight hour for a Rafale.



Although you look good fiddling with numbers but can you tell me how you calculated 0.22 internal fuel fraction for F-16 and 0.24 for Mig-29?

Also can you tell me if this "3000 km advertised" is a combat range?

You must be a relatively young indian troll, because there was time when based on findings about Mig-29 combat range there were US analysts which theorised, in print, that this was because of efforts to limit defections AND was hotly debated in airforce circles, I'll be amazed if IAF guys never read,heard or discussed this.

And you are forgetting, most probably conveniently, that Rafale, Su-30, and Mig-29 are all twin engined and F-16 is single engined and will have half SFC of others even if all these jets end up with same engines and same SFC.



Yep, I'll keep believing what my knowledge and experience tell me, you can keep idolate-ing your Rafales, I have no issue with it.

11 G LIMITS, bloody hell, you indian trolls are good at concocting a fact from even a figment of imaginations.. after a 11 g turn what a rafale will do? request opposing F-16 to hand over some of its thrust and energy to stop sinking or may be some airframe parts as well which it may be missing itself. (no apologies for sarcasm)

Please do not waste your typing on such parroting trolls, just report them and we'll deal with it.

 

[DJ_Viper]

Mig 1.44 was not a conceptual design or wind tunnel testing model ,it actually existed and fact to the matter Mikhoyan corporation was looking for money as 5th Gen spot was already taken by PAKFA so Chinese jumped in bought existing model /data /blue prints similar case for SU from Ukraine ,So i dont know why you want to chest thump for Chinese indigenous efforts ,Hats off to them that they are able to develop 5th Gen with out proper help .

You missed my entire point. No matter how many blue prints you steal, when you design yourself, you run into problems and have to modify the design many times. The people who you stole the design, won't come to solve your problems, period.

Similarly, the Mig 1.44 (and starting from the Mig-21 in general) were also stolen designs from the French. So there you have it. Mig 1.4 isn't an astronomically amazing design. Its just delta winged and enlarged. The Russians didn't sell the TOT to the Chinese so the Chinese, even if they copied the blue prints, had to design the air-frame, built avionics, sub-systems, hydraulics, defensive and offensive systems themselves. The Russians or anyone else didn't come to help them. Plus, looking at a picture on the internet, you can CAD it yourself and do simulations on it to create a blue print. You don't have to "steal" something unless its the next generation stuff. That's the reason why the Chinese stole the 5th gen stealth designs from the US and they aren't even shy about it, sadly.

But there is nothing special in Mig 1.44 or SU-30 or anything else the Russians have, these are older designs, designed to encounter 1970's US jets such as the F-14, F-15 and F-16. I hope this clarified what I was trying to say.

 

[Beast]

You missed my entire point. No matter how many blue prints you steal, when you design yourself, you run into problems and have to modify the design many times. The people who you stole the design, won't come to solve your problems, period.

Similarly, the Mig 1.44 (and starting from the Mig-21 in general) were also stolen designs from the French. So there you have it. Mig 1.4 isn't an astronomically amazing design. Its just delta winged and enlarged. The Russians didn't sell the TOT to the Chinese so the Chinese, even if they copied the blue prints, had to design the air-frame, built avionics, sub-systems, hydraulics, defensive and offensive systems themselves. The Russians or anyone else didn't come to help them. Plus, looking at a picture on the internet, you can CAD it yourself and do simulations on it to create a blue print. You don't have to "steal" something unless its the next generation stuff. That's the reason why the Chinese stole the 5th gen stealth designs from the US and they aren't even shy about it, sadly.

But there is nothing special in Mig 1.44 or SU-30 or anything else the Russians have, these are older designs, designed to encounter 1970's US jets such as the F-14, F-15 and F-16. I hope this clarified what I was trying to say.

http://cyberwar.news/2016-08-01-u-s...untries-as-russia-despite-trumps-remarks.html

US is a thief shouting others as thief. Only a moron will claim a fifth gen fighter is built in stolen blueprint and China never say that.

American propangada machine at its best.

 

[MastanKhan]

11 G LIMITS, bloody hell, you indian trolls are good at concocting a fact from even a figment of imaginations.. after a 11 g turn what a rafale will do? request opposing F-16 to hand over some of its thrust and energy to stop sinking or may be some airframe parts as well which it may be missing itself. (no apologies for sarcasm)

Hi,

The questions needs to be asked is---what the heck is the pilot going to do after doing 11G's---.

And in what format will an aircraft with a battle load do 11 G's----. If 11G's was possible---it would be with clean configuration---minimal fuel---and not external tanks---if it was ever---.

The term 11 G's is that the structure may take 11 G's---.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

The questions needs to be asked is---what the heck is the pilot going to do after doing 11G's---.

And in what format will an aircraft with a battle load do 11 G's----. If 11G's was possible---it would be with clean configuration---minimal fuel---and not external tanks---if it was ever---.

The term 11 G's is that the structure may take 11 G's---.

Hey,
Structurally it is possible for short duration but it will damage, if not the wing, at least the control surfaces at their hinges and static divergence can occur and servos may fail. So it will be up for major repair and replacement of parts.

But much before that happens, the pilot would pass out at around 9 Gs and that means a total disaster. In modern aircraft system, the human operator (pilot) is the weakest link and not much can be done about it despite having great G-suits.

Sixth gen aircraft, will therefore be pilot free or optionally piloted machine.

 

[DJ_Viper]

http://cyberwar.news/2016-08-01-u-s...untries-as-russia-despite-trumps-remarks.html

US is a thief shouting others as thief. Only a moron will claim a fifth gen fighter is built in stolen blueprint and China never say that.

American propangada machine at its best.

Really? That's all you could come up with? I built a new spit-machine. Please don't hack my laptop as its blue prints are on it . Take a look at your J-31, Z-18, and even the J-20. Who do they resemble with? The F-35, the Black Hawk, and the F-22. Sad part is that even after stealing the tech, you couldn't come up to par with the real thing. Have fun flying a 50% copies of our jets and pray that you never face the real thing as the kill ratio would be like 8:1 in the US's favor!!

Need I tell you more about where your J-20 program..which has been stuck and your scientists can't seem to figure out (or over a year now), how to make the indoor weapons bay in synch with the Radar's locking and weapons release signal mechanism .

Stealing is NOT pioneering and creativity. Its just stealing. I once reverse Engineered a Donkey as I was trying to see how China reverse engineers everything. Well sad for me, the reversed engineered Donkey wasn't alive as I just made a copy of it on a paper. Then I realize, the original is original

 

[艹艹艹]

Really? That's all you could come up with? I built a new spit-machine. Please don't hack my laptop as its blue prints are on it . Take a look at your J-31, Z-18, and even the J-20. Who do they resemble with? The F-35, the Black Hawk, and the F-22. Sad part is that even after stealing the tech, you couldn't come up to par with the real thing. Have fun flying a 50% copies of our jets and pray that you never face the real thing as the kill ratio would be like 8:1 in the US's favor!!

Need I tell you more about where your J-20 program..which has been stuck and your scientists can't seem to figure out (or over a year now), how to make the indoor weapons bay in synch with the Radar's locking and weapons release signal mechanism .

Stealing is NOT pioneering and creativity. Its just stealing. I once reverse Engineered a Donkey as I was trying to see how China reverse engineers everything. Well sad for me, the reversed engineered Donkey wasn't alive as I just made a copy of it on a paper. Then I realize, the original is original

Don't you believe it？
Come and hit me.

 

[Beast]

Really? That's all you could come up with? I built a new spit-machine. Please don't hack my laptop as its blue prints are on it . Take a look at your J-31, Z-18, and even the J-20. Who do they resemble with? The F-35, the Black Hawk, and the F-22. Sad part is that even after stealing the tech, you couldn't come up to par with the real thing. Have fun flying a 50% copies of our jets and pray that you never face the real thing as the kill ratio would be like 8:1 in the US's favor!!

Need I tell you more about where your J-20 program..which has been stuck and your scientists can't seem to figure out (or over a year now), how to make the indoor weapons bay in synch with the Radar's locking and weapons release signal mechanism .

Stealing is NOT pioneering and creativity. Its just stealing. I once reverse Engineered a Donkey as I was trying to see how China reverse engineers everything. Well sad for me, the reversed engineered Donkey wasn't alive as I just made a copy of it on a paper. Then I realize, the original is original

Really, you seems have no idea how aerodynamic works and they are many thing you simply can't just steal a blue print and think it will works? I have prove you American too steal and hacking other data. Who knows you American didn't steal Chinese aerodynamic design and bases in your plane?

Like how your American HSV still couldn't make a successful flight test? Or you want to claim China stole your inferior super computer blue print but some how magically China can make a faster supercomputer that is world best? End of the day, China is advancing and innovating in every field. I know it's a hard pillow for you to swallow watching China growing stronger everyday. We make our product better and at 1/5 of your price while produce more. Insisting on these fakes news will not hinder China technology advance.

 

[Super Falcon]

L

Hi,

The bottom line is----that those who were supposed to get the right aircraft---did not---.

And everything else is an excuse----americans have a wonderful saying about it---" excuse is like an ar-se hole---and everybody's got one ".

So---regadles of who has morre SOB stories to tell about the Paf---and who has MORE PROOF---does not mean diddley in real world scenario---.

There is a war that is going to start at midnight---are you equipped well enough to fight---. Screw the excuses---only apologists have excuses.

Totally agree with mastan Khan we should not look for excuses patrol maintenance these type of things hinder your primary task at hand defending the Pakistan

 

[DJ_Viper]

so you think that china just steal, can't invent and innovate something new things what loser you are as usual AMERICAN SUPERIORITY COMPLEX

American Superiority Complex? There is no complex, we are holding this globe down and we run this shiit . But you also see the American superiority? We shared our wealth with China, India, the Europeans, etc? We shared our defense equipment with a ton of countries to strengthen their defenses. We build schools, colleges, comes help the Pakistanis in their dark hour when the Earthquakes strike? We don't have any superiority complex, just if you didn't know, the American nation donates the MOST out of any other nation on the planet.

How many other countries including India, Pakistan, China, KSA, etc, etc, can show me a thriving minority inside of them that consists of Africans, Chinese, their internal minorities like Muslims and Sikhs in India, etc, etc??

God gave us the command for the mother land (planet Earth) for a reason. We give and help everyone. Almost everyone persecuted from their countries, wanting peaceful life and safety, somehow lands in America. It was the American greatness that brought Capt. Late, Khan's parents to the US, resulting in them producing a fine young man who would one day lead with example and will lay his life down for the love and safety of his country (while being from a minority group). And he received the Purple Heart for his service to the nation .

Don't tell me we have superiority complex. Ask our citizens and residents, including Pakistani-Americans (or Chinese Americans, or Indian Americans for that matter). The truth will hurt you for sure!!