J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

These words of yours are a gem..
Pardon me for adding that there are other fools and old hags with no technical knowledge who seem to be on sort of a crusade.

If you belong to China than I hope you will understand that power can not be bought 'off the shelf', you have to build your own and then increment upon this again and again. This is the strategy because of which China is now concern number one for the old hegemony. And what we are trying to pursue with Chinese help. Let the IAF try this out 'off the shelf' way and learn this lesson the hard way.

J-10 is a very good and potent platform, its acquisition is neither dead nor out, was just not appropriate at that time for a number of reasons. One being we already had lot of experience with a western platform which we were heading to upgrade and acquire more and even more knowledge of advanced western technologies and even our Chinese friends appreciated and understood our reasons to get hands on a potent western system.

Second, if you are going to build your own system even with JV, you need numbers, at-least 150-200. Not only to reduce costs but also be able to assimilate all or important technologies in that platform. With comparatively a smaller fleet we have, we could not have numbers unless we ditched or delayed a number of acquisitions.

We are getting there, in few years we'll have 8-11 squadrons of JF-17, 5-6 squadrons of F-16. And still 4-5 squadrons left to 'experiment' other platforms, and a number of options and being worked on. We are, like Chinese, not used to blow a lot of hot air, do huge auctions in front of whole world to see.



Me too, and I scincerely hope and wish that IAF keeps heading the direction it is heading. Good Luck..

Dear Friend, many thanks for your kind words and offering a newer insight.

China and the Chinese have a date with destiny.

We went through hell and high water...hunger and strife...made billions of T-shirts in sweatshops...but never moanned. Nobody will give China any meaningful technology...so we did what needed to be done.

Eveyone nows marvels China...but they forget thirty years ago it was different story.

Premier Zhou Enlai came to your country in the 60's and was so impressed with progress. Your good country was also once building merchant ships for China. Once.

The point is from development and progress perspective a state must have a plan/design.

Without it there can not be any direction. Only words without actions. 'We are going to do this. We are going to do that.' Those who achieve never talk.

The actions of a state must be directed towards enhancing its comprehensive national strength. So every thing a state does must be seen through this prisim.

This brings us to your fighter requirements.

Your good country can turn crisis into opportunity. It is a national choice.

What will be best for your comprehensive national strength?

Buy from russians and part with billions? Also give an external power leverage over your defence just like f16?

Or build your self?

Spend the billions at home. Build in numbers and create jobs. Give your young engineers and their families a better life?

Even if you copy, steal or JV what will add comprehensive national strength, should it not be the ultimate of national goal?

J10C and following J10D are vast improvements to J10s.

I don't know what those requirements are of your good PAF, but this aircraft will/can offer much more than just a platform. You can build it in numbers.

Not selling J10 here. But just asking a question to forward my understanding.

Allow me to thank you for your help in fostering this understanding.

Can PK accept, in heart and soul, without shallow rhetoric..that its a central asian and ME regional power?

If yes: what can PK do to enhance its comprehensive national power?

Do you have a date with destiny?

Hi,

I have been cursed by APOLLO.



Hi,

For that reason---I told the generals thru the medium----participation in yemen war is a must---you are being given the control of 5 gulf nations---that was the breaking point---that participation would have broken all the barriers of development for pakistan---because so much money would have poured in and so many jobs created---.

Military action in yemen by pak military would have saved a tremednous amount of yemeni lives---they also would have worked as mediators to solve the problem---.

But pakistan chose to stay to the path of neutrality---meaning cutting of friendship with nations that stood out thru thick and thin with pakistan---.

And first time in reality---they needed the help of pakistani in a true manner---and pakistan let them down---.

The arabs had asked for a security framework---that could have had dividends in the amount of 100 to 150 billion dollars in 5 years period---but pak military refused---.

They could have a force of 150 K troops in that region within 5 years---maybe 10-12 armor division. 150 top tier fighter and strike aircraft---20-50 transportation aircraft---heavy frigates and subs---it was for the taking of pakistan's military---.

Just imagine a 50-75000 strike force sitting in yemen covering our neighbors flank from yemen and Oman.

5 sqdrn's of SU34----10 sqdrns of SU35 or Typhoon or Rafale----5 to 8 modern frigate of 6000-8000 tonnage---another 6-8 subs----between 20-30 smaller frigates and missile boats---in the 5 years planning---would have created millions of jobs---.

General Raheel never had the vision of a conquering warrior---happy with his local battlefield experties.

Zeus most likely touched your forehead, Mr. MK.

Appolo of Delphi is for minors!

What you elaborated is what it is.

Water passes everyday in Rubricon. So happens the crossing.

So what can be done? So easy to give up.

But you will never give up!

Look, I don't know much about fighter jets or army field systems. Will never pretend to otherwise.

From development and economic progress perspective, it is my failure to see any cohesive building blocks coming together for long term by your good country PK.

Not all is lost though.

In the mind of a strategist nothing is ever black. Managing the paradoxes is the highest skill.

What I can see is that ME/GCC is heading for a day of recokning... creatures bred and fed...will return in numbers.

The US is essentially leaving the mess and will be more than happy that if another regional power takes up the security management.

Russia in Syria.

Iran almost unchainned.

Pasha's in Turkey are locking horns with NATO/US combine.

SCO will turn to mutual security arrangement soon, with exception of india.

Yemen is again an opportunity. Question is how to turn it.

A central asian and ME power that does not act as such, must indeed not be bestowed such honour for free.

It is just a state of mind.

I can not till now understand the PK mind. OF course, it will take much time. Patience is Virtue.

Education continues....

 

[Darth Vader]

Stop winging it left and right---.

Em Not Winging It Because me Trying Knowledge into your thick Skull Who main agenda is just to Moan about PAF , paf did this paf is corrupt force , bla bla
Just Seems Strange when a truck driver or seller starts to tell Defence strategy to professionals

 

[volatile]

Western analyst believes, Chinese refused to work with Russians on stealth fighter, because they thought they have much to lose than gain.

THis statment is not entirely true they refused to be part of Russian JV ,but some how J20 derived many things from Mig 1.44 design

which was a conceptual design in 1990`s Chinese tweak it with DSI intakes so lots of Chinese technology some how incorporate Russian era tech .

 

[MastanKhan]

Zeus most likely touched your forehead, Mr. MK.

Appolo of Delphi is for minors!

What you elaborated is what it is.

Water passes everyday in Rubricon. So happens the crossing.

So what can be done? So easy to give up.

But you will never give up!

Look, I don't know much about fighter jets or army field systems. Will never pretend to otherwise.

From development and economic progress perspective, it is my failure to see any cohesive building blocks coming together for long term by your good country PK.

Not all is lost though.

In the mind of a strategist nothing is ever black. Managing the paradoxes is the highest skill.

What I can see is that ME/GCC is heading for a day of recokning... creatures bred and fed...will return in numbers.

The US is essentially leaving the mess and will be more than happy that if another regional power takes up the security management.

Russia in Syria.

Iran almost unchainned.

Pasha's in Turkey are locking horns with NATO/US combine.

SCO will turn to mutual security arrangement soon, with exception of india.

Yemen is again an opportunity. Question is how to turn it.

A central asian and ME power that does not act as such, must indeed not be bestowed such honour for free.

It is just a state of mind.

I can not till now understand the PK mind. OF course, it will take much time. Patience is Virtue.

Education continues....

Hi,

It is the early 90----it is an EID day-----I am in the city of Torrance, California---. The eid prayers are being held in the city recreation center hall.

During the prayers---the prayer leader is reciting the prayer---suddenly from next door some one speaks up loudly----" I am an alcoholic---I am an addict---I have sinned---I want to make my life better---I want to take control of my life---I need help "----it is not the exact phrase---. ( there was an alcoholics anonymous class going on next door )

For me----those words of admission of sin and access from another room shook me up right in the middle of my prayer---.

Until and untess---don't admit their sins openly and want to bring a change in them---nothing will happen.

A lack of education is an excuse---which means---that one might be saying " that uneducated people do not have character ".

It is not a lack of education---but a lack of character that is the problem----.

Now how do you get character----very easy----. Stephen Hunter is a very interesting writer He has a main character Gunny Srgnt Bob Lee Swagger---.

Thru his difficult times---Bob Lee is talking to his old attorney---and during the discussion---the attorney asks---" you have a choice-----do you want Order in the society---or the Rule of Law "----.

( everyone on this board will say " rule of Law " because I shared this before---)

Then the attorney answers----" You always want order in the society first---because without Order---the rule of Law cannot be enforced ".

This is a stair step transition----.

Pakistan's founder uttered three words for pakistanis to follow---now when he uttered those words---he did not comprehend what would follow thru----.

Those words are " Unity---Faith---Discipline "----. The pakistanis have taken these words literally---and trying to enforce them in that sequence as were uttered---.

And why it cannot be enforced---and why they don't see the results---because the words are in wrong SEQUENCE---they are switched around----.

A Tire has to be mounted on the Rim first and then bolted onto the Axle for it to work---.

You cannot mount the tire on the axle---or take the axle out and put the rim in its place---it does not work---.

Similarly---in pursuit of progress---the first and fore most thing in life is Discipline---that is what the sergeant drills into the minds of new recruits----discipline discipline discipline----.

All the sergeants in the militaries world over for centuries and centuries have learnt that for the troops to perform right they need to have discipline---once they learn discipline---they will create and form Unity amongst that group---why---because now thru vigorous drills and exercises---unity is forced upon the recruits---they are forced to learn that trait---and once the Unity is forced in the group---now they are forced to develop faith in the partners---again thru strenuous exercises and training---now that the group has learnt that for them to survive and succeed---they have to have faith in their team members----so that will develop Faith in each other---.

Why would that happen----because they have followed the natural process of camaraderie---you need discipline to progress----your common goals create unity---and when your are united---then you have faith that the progress of others will keep you together and move you ahead as a team.

And for all that to happen---you have to go back to Order in the society---Rule of law and---because when there is no justice---there is chaos---.

Em Not Winging It Because me Trying Knowledge into your thick Skull Who main agenda is just to Moan about PAF , paf did this paf is corrupt force , bla bla
Just Seems Strange when a truck driver or seller starts to tell Defence strategy to professionals

Never ever forget that Tom Clancy was an insurance salesman---.

 

[Darth Vader]

Hi,

It is the early 90----it is an EID day-----I am in the city of Torrance, California---. The eid prayers are being held in the city recreation center hall.

During the prayers---the prayer leader is reciting the prayer---suddenly from next door some one speaks up loudly----" I am an alcoholic---I am an addict---I have sinned---I want to make my life better---I want to take control of my life---I need help "----it is not the exact phrase---. ( there was an alcoholics anonymous class going on next door )

For me----those words of admission of sin and access from another room shook me up right in the middle of my prayer---.

Until and untess---don't admit their sins openly and want to bring a change in them---nothing will happen.

A lack of education is an excuse---which means---that one might be saying " that uneducated people do not have character ".

It is not a lack of education---but a lack of character that is the problem----.

Now how do you get character----very easy----. Stephen Hunter is a very interesting writer He has a main character Gunny Srgnt Bob Lee Swagger---.

Thru his difficult times---Bob Lee is talking to his old attorney---and during the discussion---the attorney asks---" you have a choice-----do you want Order in the society---or the Rule of Law "----.

( everyone on this board will say " rule of Law " because I shared this before---)

Then the attorney answers----" You always want order in the society first---because without Order---the rule of Law cannot be enforced ".

This is a stair step transition----.

Pakistan's founder uttered three words for pakistanis to follow---now when he uttered those words---he did not comprehend what would follow thru----.

Those words are " Unity---Faith---Discipline "----. The pakistanis have taken these words literally---and trying to enforce them in that sequence as were uttered---.

And why it cannot be enforced---and why they don't see the results---because the words are in wrong SEQUENCE---they are switched around----.

A Tire has to be mounted on the Rim first and then bolted onto the Axle for it to work---.

You cannot mount the tire on the axle---or take the axle out and put the rim in its place---it does not work---.

Similarly---in pursuit of progress---the first and fore most thing in life is Discipline---that is what the sergeant drills into the minds of new recruits----discipline discipline discipline----.

All the sergeants in the militaries world over for centuries and centuries have learnt that for the troops to perform right they need to have discipline---once they learn discipline---they will create and form Unity amongst that group---why---because now thru vigorous drills and exercises---unity is forced upon the recruits---they are forced to learn that trait---and once the Unity is forced in the group---now they are forced to develop faith in the partners---again thru strenuous exercises and training---now that the group has learnt that for them to survive and succeed---they have to have faith in their team members----so that will develop Faith in each other---.

Why would that happen----because they have followed the natural process of camaraderie---you need discipline to progress----your common goals create unity---and when your are united---then you have faith that the progress of others will keep you together and move you ahead as a team.

And for all that to happen---you have to go back to Order in the society---Rule of law and---because when there is no justice---there is chaos---.



Never ever forget that Tom Clancy was an insurance salesman---.

But he Had Some thing Called Brain

THis statment is not entirely true they refused to be part of Russian JV ,but some how J20 derived many things from Mig 1.44 design

which was a conceptual design in 1990`s Chinese tweak it with DSI intakes so lots of Chinese technology some how incorporate Russian era tech .

Thats the Best Thing About China , and way to progress to Adapt , something which is already in use and make it better simple why
Else everyone is copy cat majority of western and russian tech were based on german experiments heck even the scientist were the same one
So did German stole from aliens ? its not point in discussion
Origin of Dsi is from States mainly from Tiger

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Hi,

It is the early 90----it is an EID day-----I am in the city of Torrance, California---. The eid prayers are being held in the city recreation center hall.

During the prayers---the prayer leader is reciting the prayer---suddenly from next door some one speaks up loudly----" I am an alcoholic---I am an addict---I have sinned---I want to make my life better---I want to take control of my life---I need help "----it is not the exact phrase---. ( there was an alcoholics anonymous class going on next door )

For me----those words of admission of sin and access from another room shook me up right in the middle of my prayer---.

Until and untess---don't admit their sins openly and want to bring a change in them---nothing will happen.

A lack of education is an excuse---which means---that one might be saying " that uneducated people do not have character ".

It is not a lack of education---but a lack of character that is the problem----.

Now how do you get character----very easy----. Stephen Hunter is a very interesting writer He has a main character Gunny Srgnt Bob Lee Swagger---.

Thru his difficult times---Bob Lee is talking to his old attorney---and during the discussion---the attorney asks---" you have a choice-----do you want Order in the society---or the Rule of Law "----.

( everyone on this board will say " rule of Law " because I shared this before---)

Then the attorney answers----" You always want order in the society first---because without Order---the rule of Law cannot be enforced ".

This is a stair step transition----.

Pakistan's founder uttered three words for pakistanis to follow---now when he uttered those words---he did not comprehend what would follow thru----.

Those words are " Unity---Faith---Discipline "----. The pakistanis have taken these words literally---and trying to enforce them in that sequence as were uttered---.

And why it cannot be enforced---and why they don't see the results---because the words are in wrong SEQUENCE---they are switched around----.

A Tire has to be mounted on the Rim first and then bolted onto the Axle for it to work---.

You cannot mount the tire on the axle---or take the axle out and put the rim in its place---it does not work---.

Similarly---in pursuit of progress---the first and fore most thing in life is Discipline---that is what the sergeant drills into the minds of new recruits----discipline discipline discipline----.

All the sergeants in the militaries world over for centuries and centuries have learnt that for the troops to perform right they need to have discipline---once they learn discipline---they will create and form Unity amongst that group---why---because now thru vigorous drills and exercises---unity is forced upon the recruits---they are forced to learn that trait---and once the Unity is forced in the group---now they are forced to develop faith in the partners---again thru strenuous exercises and training---now that the group has learnt that for them to survive and succeed---they have to have faith in their team members----so that will develop Faith in each other---.

Why would that happen----because they have followed the natural process of camaraderie---you need discipline to progress----your common goals create unity---and when your are united---then you have faith that the progress of others will keep you together and move you ahead as a team.

And for all that to happen---you have to go back to Order in the society---Rule of law and---because when there is no justice---there is chaos---.



Never ever forget that Tom Clancy was an insurance salesman---.

Once again, sincere thanks, kind sir.

Have read about your founding leader. Appears to be an interesting personality.

He must have had self descipline to create your good country.

Otherwise, you would not be having a PAF to worry about.

We can only be grateful to him. Otherwise, China would have had even a bigger trobule maker than your good neighbour already is.

But that is a different matter altogether.

All organisations are but a reflection of their culture and society.

Consistency and discipline are a great Virtue.

The great sage Sun Tzu values it to be one of the highest virtues.

For the Ruler. For the general. For the troops.

Wish you, as person, and your good country very best.

There are so many great opportunities around you to capture with both hands and redeem all of the past.

With consistency and discipline one stone at a time...Great Walls is built.

Please, never loose hope. Disrepect or redicule of the young or disdain of the old...must never let any one loose common sene.

My education continues...one more vignette in the great country of yours.

 

[Genghis khan1]

THis statment is not entirely true they refused to be part of Russian JV ,but some how J20 derived many things from Mig 1.44 design

which was a conceptual design in 1990`s Chinese tweak it with DSI intakes so lots of Chinese technology some how incorporate Russian era tech .

For you it may be similar, but for an aeronautical engineer designing an aircraft, there is day and night difference between two designs. One is designed using Supercomputers other is designed using pen and paper. One is a stealth plate forum other is non stealth. Don't just look at too wings, took tails and canards.

 

[ziaulislam]

paf doesnt get enough funds, most of funds are eaten by the army

we need a balance force, which means that army needs to decrease it size a bit and its apetite for too many types of different weapons and allow some more space for the airforce and navy

as of now we are even having problems in producing the cheaper thunders

 

[volatile]

For you it may be similar, but for an aeronautical engineer designing an aircraft, there is day and night difference between two designs. One is designed using Supercomputers other is designed using pen and paper. One is a stealth plate forum other is non stealth. Don't just look at too wings, took tails and canards.

Now you are sounding more like Indian (LCA is different plane) just kidding ,Its a good approach not to invent wheel ,FC31 has its inheritance from F35 programe and J20 from MIG 1.44 ,offcourse orignal design was conceived in 1980`s and Chinese started working after 2000 so there is lots of tech improvement inside the J20 but one cannot dismiss the fact Russian and US input thru espionage / thru collaboration and off course JF17 inherit also inherit Mig design

The Mikoyan Project 1.44/1.42[N 1] (Russian: Микоян МиГ-1.44; NATO reporting name: Flatpack)[2] was a technology demonstrator developed by the Mikoyan design bureau. It was the Soviet Union's answer to the U.S.'s Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF), incorporating many fifth-generation jet fighter aspects such as advanced avionics, stealth technology,supermaneuverability, and supercruise. The design’s development was a protracted one, characterized by repeated and lengthy postponements due to a chronic lack of funds; the MiG 1.44 made its maiden flight in February 2000, nine years behind schedule, and was cancelled later that year.

All credit to Chinese to make it work and frankly as Pakistani we dont have any issue as long as it can do what it is supposed to do . Coming to the point we have to be honest to our selves all the time and its ok if the designs or concepts are from some where else , even US designs are from German

Perfectly agreed with you and its Ok

Thats the Best Thing About China , and way to progress to Adapt , something which is already in use and make it better simple why
Else everyone is copy cat majority of western and russian tech were based on german experiments heck even the scientist were the same one
So did German stole from aliens ? its not point in discussion
Origin of Dsi is from States mainly from Tiger

 

[SQ8]

I sincerely hope nobody is listening to you. I sincerely hope your views get buried under the fanboy traffic. You will understand.

I hope they are, none of those views represent an iota of sense.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

I hope they are, none of those views represent an iota of sense.

Luckily, your policy is not extracted from such forums...otherwise, your good PAF will be flying the UFOs.

Nevertheless, the opinions / visions of the posters do help in forming an understanding of the minsdset of genral population.

Just an educational question: Is PAC really geared (man and machine) enough to undertake the JV proudction of a mid level paltform apart form JF? As replacement of your mid level existing platforms.

Thanks.

 

[Zarvan]

If Pakistan is really talking with Qatar for those 20 year old Mirages than better if get 24 J-10 B or C on lease from China

 

[weqi]

If Pakistan is really talking with Qatar for those 20 year old Mirages than better if get 24 J-10 B or C on lease from China

OVER KARACHI MIRAGE SERVILLIANCE IS COMMON I SEE ONCE A DAY .

 

[araz]

Luckily, your policy is not extracted from such forums...otherwise, your good PAF will be flying the UFOs.

Nevertheless, the opinions / visions of the posters do help in forming an understanding of the minsdset of genral population.

Just an educational question: Is PAC really geared (man and machine) enough to undertake the JV proudction of a mid level paltform apart form JF? As replacement of your mid level existing platforms.

Thanks.

On the contrary! They public on this forum is not at all like general public. They are a highly unusual lot of semi demented lunatics which is why sometimes you want to bash your head against the wall.
A

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

On the contrary! They public on this forum is not at all like general public. They are a highly unusual lot of semi demented lunatics which is why sometimes you want to bash your head against the wall.
A

Good to hear from you, kind sir!

Had to walk away from this old machine to contain my laugter... still holding on to it...

Just brilliant timing and an almost a perfect delivery. Humour is priceless.

Anyhow, as an outsider one whishes to understand the pulse of your good people...

Teachers like yourself might accelerate the process, one fears.

You have a very good evening..

Kind rergards.