J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[MastanKhan]

I sincerely hope nobody is listening to you. I sincerely hope your views get buried under the fanboy traffic. You will understand.

Hi,

Thank you for your post----see how others understand it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hi,

Thank you for your post----see how others understand it.

They won't, and I couldn't care less. You are at a different level, maestro, and on these matters, while I don't always agree with your harsh views on the PAF, I've never seen you write a post that wasn't worth thinking over, to some considerable extent. They are really educative. Sometimes shocking, but always educative.

I hope they are, none of those views represent an iota of sense.

Aw, come on! He's saying something radical, and he shocks me from time to time, but he's making a consistent case, at least. I'm not sure I agree, but it is coherent and hangs together.

I hope they are, none of those views represent an iota of sense.

I was just thinking, if posts on this forum had to pass your criteria of rigorous logical thinking, interleaved, from time to time, with flashes of insight into sociological and political matters*, perhaps 1% would survive.

(*Your comment on Jinnah earlier today or yesterday)

 

[X-2.]

Going to a new platform is no easy task we will have to setup an entire infrastructure for that and from what i remember j10 was rejected for future fc 31 deal

It is possible as block 3 will be 4++ so we need to think beyond

 

[Akhill]

Hi,

You are right---but I heard it from my jewish colleagues here in the U S---using the term often in their relationship with U S and israel---so I gave them credit---.



Hi,

Very simple and very easy---because that was their primary focus---and they got all the needed information to build those aircraft and that is where the primary research and investment was directed towards---.

So---basically they missed out on a generation of fighter aircraft---because they needed to have their primary aircraft take on the adversary's primary aircraft---.

Once that is done----then the EW tech from the primary aircraft would be directed towards the SU30 / SU35 type of aircraft---which is being integrated as of now---.

In other words---the chinese are building a strong top tier aircraft to take care of its NOW problem---SCS issue---unlike pakistan that is starting from the bottom end up.

It is not that the chinese don't have anything close to the SU30----they do---.

I would also say that they have so much funds available and so many resources available that they can invest in so many parallel program at the same time---so that their Tier 1 and Tier 2 aircraft are progressing at the same time---which is unlike the development in any other nation.

Wow... and even the chinese wouldn't have a better justification than this.. i guess the chinese members must be laughing their asses off or wondering why couldn't they come up with so much love and confidence on their birds. You truly made my day sir.. and you are a PDF Veteran.. lol..

 

[MastanKhan]

Wow... and even the chinese wouldn't have a better justification than this.. i guess the chinese members must be laughing their asses off or wondering why couldn't they come up with so much love and confidence on their birds. You truly made my day sir.. and you are a PDF Veteran.. lol..

Hi,

Don't write " clever " answers that only you understand---please write in english.

 

[randomradio]

Hi,

It is a misleading statement----. After 9/11---Paf assessed that there is not going to be any war or hostilities with India anymore----. So they decided not to buy any fighter aircraft.

That is why there was the drama of testing the Grippen and the rafale---because paf had already decided that for a WHITEWASH---they will have a smaller potent aircraft---the JF17--and everyone will be happy.

After they had blown all the money on the earthquake---( the money that was meant for the defense of pakistan---) they found out----that India is still hostile and the reason for war is stronger. Now---that they have given all the money away---and the enemy is still there---paf has loose motions now---so in desperation and not 'cold hearted' decision it went for the f16's---because by that time---Rafale was gone.

Paf is was so stupid---that it fell for the Indian ruse---. India knew that paf would get aircraft after the sanctions came off----that why the peace drama was started and pushed hard thru all meansand they snared Paf into that web.

India's peace drama was to get Pak to fight the TTP, not to avoid Pak from buying a squadron or two of F-16s.

 

[DJ_Viper]

THis statment is not entirely true they refused to be part of Russian JV ,but some how J20 derived many things from Mig 1.44 design

which was a conceptual design in 1990`s Chinese tweak it with DSI intakes so lots of Chinese technology some how incorporate Russian era tech .

Frankly speaking, this makes no sense. Rafale, EFT also have similar design based on Delta Wings and Canards. Has anyone on here ever seen an air-frame actually getting designed??

The air-frame you start from at a Concept level, is a LOT different then when you got to the Wind tunnel testing. Its also a LOT different than when you get to the Prototype and then actual flight testing might require further design changes based on aerodynamics capabilities being received, vs. perceived at the time of design initiation. Meaning, the plane could take multiple shapes and changes and can resemble a lot of different designs.

Also, remember, the world really has two major designs almost every country uses (I call them COTS-D, Common, Off the Shelf Designs). Meaning the traditional one from the European and Russians (full or semi delta wing and canards), and the US designs (unconventional, delta wings free designs). The next thing common in any air-frame is the air intake. Depending on where you put it, or what shape your design works better with, you could resemble ten different jets out there. Means nothing as every plane is designed for a required capability and one country's designs can't really meet another country's engineering standards, design and operational requirements.

 

[randomradio]

Hi,

The order was for I believe 72 F16's---and the earthquake was in 2005---and the air chief later admitted to giving the money for the relief work----this is on record---.

72 brand new F16s!
rumours, hearsay and nonsense you have to throw..nothing more

Yes. 36 F-16s and 36 more options were reduced to 18+18.

Rafale, we have already evaluated and did not find it to be a good fit. Its too expensive with higher service hours and lower sortie rates.

Really?

A Rafale needs 8 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight. It can manage 3 sorties a day comfortably. The availability rate in ADLA is 97%.

Its also short legged without its drop tanks,

Rafale's fuel fraction is 0.33. Su-30MKI's fuel fraction is 0.34 and MKI is advertised with 3000Km range. And Rafale has a lower drag coefficient and better SFC than MKI. So you can come to your own conclusions.

In comparison the F-16's fuel fraction is just 0.22. As for the Mig-29, its fuel fraction is 0.24.

So is the Rafale still short-legged?

depletes more energy in dogfights which can result in problems in VWR combat if that gets dragged for some time.

Is that so? So its 11G limits are for show? Ever checked its climb rates? Do you know Rafale pilots cannot throttle a lot when fighting the M-2000 because of the fear of overshooting.

Basically it is a good long range fighter bomber and that is why IAF is inducting it, without drop tanks it is more like a Mig-29 just a point defence/base defence interceptor albeit with excellent radar.

Please continue believing that.

 

[MastanKhan]

India's peace drama was to get Pak to fight the TTP, not to avoid Pak from buying a squadron or two of F-16s.

Hi,

In 2002---2005---there was no TTP at time.

 

[randomradio]

Hi,

In 2002---2005---there was no TTP at time.

I know but they were all fragmented before that. It's easy to just put them under those three letters, they are the same people.

Pak would never have entered Tirah if it wasn't for assurances from India.

 

[SQ8]

Aw, come on! He's saying something radical, and he shocks me from time to time, but he's making a consistent case, at least. I'm not sure I agree, but it is coherent and hangs together.

Radical ideas(lest we utter radicalism and cause taboo) are appreciated only if they actually bring facts. On many threads you have decried Indians of parroting pointless nonsense like some fish market vendor and lost your cool to it in frustration.

Yes, the young nubile minds need to think; but not without knowledge and information. They should not be encouraged as they are by the posted to speak without actually reading on subject thoroughly.

Mind you, a LOT of terrorists started out being encouraged to do more instead of thinking and analysing. A lot of them are all heaped up on hot air and nothing of substance.

My standards of logic have a reason, that is to ensure that at least 10% .. if not 20% of people who come into contact with PDF come away with the wish to learn and think on such matters; not just blurt about whatever idea comes to their mind.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Radical ideas(lest we utter radicalism and cause taboo) are appreciated only if they actually bring facts. On many threads you have decried Indians of parroting pointless nonsense like some fish market vendor and lost your cool to it in frustration.

Yes, the young nubile unformed minds need to think; but not without knowledge and information. They should not be encouraged as they are by the posted to speak without actually reading on subject thoroughly.

Mind you, a LOT of terrorists started out being encouraged to do more instead of thinking and analysing. A lot of them are all heaped up on hot air and nothing of substance.

My standards of logic have a reason, that is to ensure that at least 10% .. if not 20% of people who come into contact with PDF come away with the wish to learn and think on such matters; not just blurt about whatever idea comes to their mind.

I suppose my key take-away is the sentence in red.

There is clearly some difference between my insistence on facts, which you showed was not enough in itself, and your insistence on logic, although perhaps the latter should be facts appropriately selected by application of rigorous logic. It is undeniably right, but I operate in a slightly different part of the coalmines. There is such a lack of the basic information that most time is spent in wearily repeating the same stuff.

My hope is that gradually people will be weaned away from spouting blind prejudices and gossip, instead of well-informed facts, and then perhaps we can get down to the logical rational discussion that you yourself insist on. The ground must be prepared first.

 

[thrilainmanila]

i can see for and against the J-10. J-10 isn't sanction prone packs a heavier payload is single engined. has advanced systems like AESA radar can be tailored to PAF needs if required it makes sense. OTOH theres been allot of noise made about how faulty and incompatible the engines are there has been quite a few crashes its a bit of a wildcard purchase.

 

[SQ8]

I suppose my key take-away is the sentence in red.

There is clearly some difference between my insistence on facts, which you showed was not enough in itself, and your insistence on logic, although perhaps the latter should be facts appropriately selected by application of rigorous logic. It is undeniably right, but I operate in a slightly different part of the coalmines. There is such a lack of the basic information that most time is spent in wearily repeating the same stuff.

My hope is that gradually people will be weaned away from spouting blind prejudices and gossip, instead of well-informed facts, and then perhaps we can get down to the logical rational discussion that you yourself insist on. The ground must be prepared first.

You never understood my points on facts then Janab.


Today is 4th August 2016 for me, it is a fact.. for everyone behind the sun line. Today is the 5th for you.. it is a fact for you as well.

These days it is warm or even hot in most of India as it is in July and that is something you cannot dispute for many Indians who will call you a liar for saying otherwise, it is a fact for them.

These days, it is near freezing in Melbourne Australia as it is in July and that is something you cannot dispute for many Australians who will call you a liar for saying otherwise, it is a fact for them.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You never understood my points on facts then Janab.


Today is 4th August 2016 for me, it is a fact.. for everyone behind the sun line. Today is the 5th for you.. it is a fact for you as well.

These days it is warm or even hot in most of India as it is in July and that is something you cannot dispute for many Indians who will call you a liar for saying otherwise, it is a fact for them.

These days, it is near freezing in Melbourne Australia as it is in July and that is something you cannot dispute for many Australians who will call you a liar for saying otherwise, it is a fact for them.

No, no, I got that very well, that facts are nothing fixed and depend on where the observer is standing.

It's just that I think that people should come up to at least that level, from a level where they're saying, You are yellow and I am brown so you are obviously wrong. Once they do, and we are all agreed that personalities and prejudices shouldn't come into it, we can walk up another flight of stairs and get to what you have stated.

It happens incrementally, chief. Taking them to the top floor is risky; there's always a bozo who wants, needs to look over the unprotected edge.