It's now or never situation again

[kris]

If the majority want independence, then pakistan should hold a referendum and then grant it to them. They have been preaching this for Kashmir for decades now. Time to walk the talk.

Rules doesn't apply to them it seems

Kashmiri/GB muslims will still choose Pakistan even if there is an economic crisis. Religious identity and its associated safety comes first. Thinking will be: "sure, there are economic problems now but that will go away after X years"

Hypothetical situation:

1) Let's say you are a Hindu in Jammu
2) Let's assume that India is in deep economical trouble. There is shortage of everything and country is bankrupt
3) Assume that Pakistan's economy is roaring
4) Now in this situation, let's assume that a referendum is held.

Would you vote to join Pakistan under these circumstances?

EDIT: Apologies for hijacking the thread

Personally I will vote to stay with India. It's all over for non Muslims it J&ķ joins pakistan

 

[Erieye]

And that's the big problem they have

They have this narrative because a bunch of locals turn up in a field and say they want peace

When another group of the same locals support terrorism openly


It's why no one really knows what to do with them,




People ask why Pakistan tried to negotiate with the TTP, the reason was if those mofos listened then we wouldn't have to kill them

Underneath it all everyone understands the TTP are pashtuns, and they mix pashtun nationalism with religion

So if your forced to kill 10,000 TTP then you are killing 10,000 pashtuns


Now if the locals were truly against terrorism it wouldnt be a issue, but IT IS because the same people will then declare the TTP dead as innocent locals

It's round and round in circles because the locals are stuck in tribalistic mindset that they can't get out of

There is no right or wrong,, just ethnicity

Bitter truth.

Their minds are on the fence in KP, they are sympathetic to both Pakistan and TTP.

When Pakistan hunts TTP, the narrative is establishment is killing innocent locals and targeting us.

When TTP hunts down Pakistan, it is celebrated by a decently large section of their society as an absolute win and execuses and sympathy is given to TTP.

But then at the end when TTP gets too strong, the army is called in for operations to kill them all and later the narrative becomes our blood is sold for dollars.

 

[Menace2Society]

Bitter truth.

Their minds are on the fence in KP, they are sympathetic to both Pakistan and TTP.

When Pakistan hunts TTP, the narrative is establishment is killing innocent locals and targeting us.

When TTP hunts down Pakistan, it is celebrated by a decently large section of their society as an absolute win and execuses and sympathy is given to TTP.

But then at the end when TTP gets too strong, the army is called in for operations to kill them all and the narrative becomes our blood is sold for dollars.

This is an anti Pakistani ideology peddled by Al Qaeda to break the federation. These terrorist sympathizers should have been sent to the gulag in 2002.

 

[Erieye]

This is an anti Pakistani ideology peddled by Al Qaeda to break the federation. These terrorist sympathizers should have been sent to the gulag in 2002.

Nope. You can't see the bigger picture here - Al Qaeda has long left even their ideology mostly gone,.

This is an ethnic psychological game. Essentially the Pashtuns have accepted the Pakistani federation but due to the cultural hate of Punjabis, anyone who peddles the narrative of TTP attacking "Punjabis" (they target local FC the most btw) they feel they must be sympathetic towards them because they are a "true pashtun" who hates punjabis and they must accept it to also be a "true pashtun". culturally they feel they must accept the anti-punjabi narrative otherwise they aren't being true to themselves. but at the same time they accept pakistan which punjabis are a core part of.

So they sit on the fence, they allow TTP to operate at small levels due to sympathies of the anti-punjabi narrative, but when TTP is too big and can harm pakistan, their pakistani sympathy overpowers the TTP one, and they want the army to come in and kill all TTP militants.

then after a while the cycle restarts, and the "dollar game" accusations start.

We need a whole ISI psychological social analysis wing to research this stuff more in depth. Study the interactions, perceptions, stereotypes between all ethnicities and how it impacts our current situation both politically, and militancy.

@Signalian @PanzerKiel Opinions on above?

 

[TheSolution]

Nope. You can't see the bigger picture here - Al Qaeda has long left even their ideology mostly gone,.

This is an ethnic psychological game. Essentially the Pashtuns have accepted the Pakistani federation but due to the cultural hate of Punjabis, anyone who peddles the narrative of TTP attacking "Punjabis" (they target local FC the most btw) they feel they must be sympathetic towards them because they are a "true pashtun" who hates punjabis and they must accept it to also be a "true pashtun". culturally they feel they must accept the anti-punjabi narrative otherwise they aren't being true to themselves. but at the same time they accept pakistan which punjabis are a core part of.

So they sit on the fence, they allow TTP to operate at small levels due to sympathies of the anti-punjabi narrative, but when TTP is too big and can harm pakistan, their pakistani sympathy overpowers the TTP one, and they want the army to come in and kill all TTP militants.

then after a while the cycle restarts, and the "dollar game" accusations start.

We need a whole ISI psychological social analysis wing to research this stuff more in depth. Study the interactions, perceptions, stereotypes between all ethnicities and how it impacts our current situation both politically, and militancy.

@Signalian @PanzerKiel Opinions on above?

@Mirzali Khan Would you say the above is true, or to an extent at least? Since you are a Pashtun so your opinion holds the most value here

 

[AlKardai]

Well of course ethnic nationalism is going to occur, when the state to be nationalistic for- is in tatters

 

[TheSolution]

Well of course ethnic nationalism is going to occur, when the state to be nationalistic for- is in tatters

Simple and concise. When a multi-ethnic nation is in tatters, this is the natural outcome. Especially when there is underlying racism/hatred between thr groups already.

 

[K_Bin_W]

If the majority want independence, then pakistan should hold a referendum and then grant it to them. They have been preaching this for Kashmir for decades now. Time to walk the talk.

Sure, once the UN passes a resolution it shall be done..

 

[alphapak]

Don't blame them for wantiing an independant Pashtoonistan, who wants to
controlled by the corrupt establishment. Even Bengali's had the self respect
and gained independence in 71.

 

[Mentee]

Yeah it's low IQ to cry why roa Anwar was freed by establishment after rampant killing

ptm is in bed with those responsible for rao Anwar saga and also advocates for drone strikes. What kinda bayghyrat lot is representing pakhtoon cause and to top it off the aggrieved party is accepting them the as their representatives .

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Pashtuns make up around 38-42% of the population of Afghanistan, whereas in Pakistan, it is estimated to be around 15-20%. So they'll feel more comfortable and in the position of authority in Afghanistan, as compared to Pakistan.

If Pakistani establishment doesn't play carefully, it will keep amputating Pakistan one by one.

More Pushtuns are killed in Afghanistan. The standard of living of Pushtuns in Afghanistan is a disaster. The civil frictions that exist for Pushtuns in Afghanistan are far greater than any civil frictions in Pakistan. This is not a matter of economic or social well being for Pushtuns. Pakistan is a far greater land for us, yet the state craft and leadership is so weak we loose to a bullshit romantic notion of joining with Afghanistan, because no one focuses on this issue, and we dont have leaders who continue to drive in our youth the importance of staying within the social contract of Pakistan. Having said this people over inflate the Pushtun rebellion against Pakistan. Pushtuns are too well integrated economically and socially for this to happen anytime soon. But enemy states like India work in longer arc of times and they are playing the long game to destroy Pakistan. So over time this alienation is what India is working towards, and our weak leadership and national narrative does not help.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

@Mirzali Khan Would you say the above is true, or to an extent at least? Since you are a Pashtun so your opinion holds the most value here

Wtf did I just read

If that was true then all of KPK and Northern Balochistan would still be burning. It also wouldn’t make sense because the biggest critique in PTI and PTM Pashtun circles is that they often see TTP as an extension of Pakistan Army. PTI is also the largest party in Punjab.

TTP is only big in Waziristan and has extensive hideouts across the border in Paktia.

Having said this people over inflate the Pushtun rebellion against Pakistan. Pushtuns are too well integrated economically and socially for this to happen anytime soon.

Inferiority complex and abandonment issues is what leads people to keep over inflating that.

I also blame Tik tok for that as well. Comment section wars are too wild.

Waziristan belt pushtoons are running very active pushtunistan compaign on social media and they have gained some good chunk of people also on their side from inside kp
State will have to take strict action against Terrorism otherwise coming days will be extremely dark for Pakistan because it will have to fight both Pushtoon nationalists and TTP and will become difficult to handle their narrative.

I noticed this too on social media.

What’s crazy is that a lot of these people were hardcore pro pak

 

[TheSolution]

Wtf did I just read

If that was true then all of KPK and Northern Balochistan would still be burning. It also wouldn’t make sense because the biggest critique in PTI and PTM Pashtun circles is that they often see TTP as an extension of Pakistan Army. PTI is also the largest party in Punjab.

TTP is only big in Waziristan and has extensive hideouts across the border in Paktia.

It makes sense though if you think about it, explains why TTP hasn't been sternly defeated and still operates in those regions at a low level - and periodically becomes strong until the state says it's a threat then gets destroyed

And mostly it has costed a lot of damage to the economy, and operations to counter it are actually quite expensive contrary to popular belief.

Also it would explain the "on the fence" - celebrating the low level attacks but not when it gets serious

 

[FuturePAF]

Bitter truth.

Their minds are on the fence in KP, they are sympathetic to both Pakistan and TTP.

When Pakistan hunts TTP, the narrative is establishment is killing innocent locals and targeting us.

When TTP hunts down Pakistan, it is celebrated by a decently large section of their society as an absolute win and execuses and sympathy is given to TTP.

But then at the end when TTP gets too strong, the army is called in for operations to kill them all and later the narrative becomes our blood is sold for dollars.

This is why the local KPK police (predominantly Pashtun) need to be the force that handles the TTP.

This police force need to be adequately armed and equipped for the mission they face.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

It makes sense though if you think about it, explains why TTP hasn't been sternly defeated and still operates in those regions at a low level - and periodically becomes strong until the state says it's a threat then gets destroyed

And mostly it has costed a lot of damage to the economy, and operations to counter it are actually quite expensive contrary to popular belief.

Also it would explain the "on the fence" - celebrating the low level attacks but not when it gets serious

I’ve never met a Pashtun from Pakistan who supports TTP or celebrates attacks. FATA didn’t have militancy until mid 2000s. So where was all the anti Punjab militancy stuff then?

Also can you define “those regions” the Pashtun majority areas of Balochistan and Quetta have never been a hold of TTP. Most of Quetta’s terrorism was done by sectarian groups from Punjab and BLA.