It's now or never situation again

[Sayfullah]

It’s only good under a PTI gov or when Imran Khan is PM, other than that it’s another Balochistan.

PTI or no PTI. The situation of tribal areas and the rest of Pakistan won’t change unless the system is changed to be Islamic. PTI coming up with transgender bill legalizing same sec marriages won’t do Pakistan any good. The fact that tribal areas will be “another Balochistan” if PTI isn’t in power alone is troublesome because PTI in power is just a bandage on the wound if PTI doesn’t change the system which has kept Pakistan back and tribal areas in darkness for the last 75 years.

 

[Menace2Society]

I am Muslim. My constitution is the Quran. My law is Shariah. My system is that of the Rashidun Caliphate.

No you are living in Canada. Why don't you move to Syria or Yemen and prove your loyalty

Armchair Islamists living in the west calling for the most draconian laws in theology to be implemented on a 3rd world country already drowning in religion, burning a man alive in daylight, religious extremists and terrorists running amok, don't you think enough is enough? Ofcourse not, they want the entire Pakistan to look like FATA while they sit there in the west enjoying all the pleasures and benefits a secular developed country has to offer while they virtue signal.

 

[TheSolution]

Ofcourse not, they want the entire Pakistan to look like FATA

This isn't what we want

A- bring shari'a law like in Saudi, A-stan, ISIS states, without speration of power, delegation of power, democracy etc

You'll be going in circles, repeating the same issues- it's a requirement for any modern state , Islamic laws can't solve it , it's not a silver bullet, if anything it'll alienate more people without solving the issues of others

B- it wasn't secularism, it was dictatorship with no rule of law , no constitutionalism, free for all

constitution of Pakistan say's no law can go against islamic law and every law must pass shari'a council

This is fine - it's a middle ground to keep our state from going to any extreme, it can't go secular even if we wanted to, and it's also acceptable to most Pakistanis, it's not burdensome like in other countries with shari'a law

Democracy and delegation of power means - that if a province elects a provincial government, they can control thier society
Make hijab mandatory in your province - you can
Make your textbooks, education is yours, teach whatever the hell you want, make Quran mandatory - you can
Allocate budget to build up your police force you can
You want to attract investments- you can
You want to build schools, highway, electricity you can

If a province wants to shape thier society, constitutionally they can by voting in parties that represent their intrests - JI, tlp, Jui -F are all parties that are striving for these ideals

If you follow constitution to it's true spirit and bring proper democracy - everyone can shape thier province, cities even if rest of the country is not seeing eyes to eye

If gilgit, AJK, KPK, Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan wants to shape thier province into a welfare state they can, into an islamic state they can, within the confines of Pakistan

This is what I mean by constitution, rule of law, democracy - if you follow it to the tee there's space for everyone in our republic but if you don't - bring whatever it'll be the same shit over and over again , on repeat


C- so you want to appease one side by alienating the other- this is your plan, we won't fix our issues at hand by following constitution but we'll instead go the appeasement route and surrender our tradition, culture, way of life to "fit in" with each other, we won't respect the fact that we are a federation of 220 million with dozens of languages, sects, traditions, ethnicities - we are different, alone we are a ignored backwaters of the world, but together we become strong, atleast gives us the potential to be a great power, gives us the ability to stand up and protect ourselves

But if you follow our constitution, we can respect the differences, shape our society the way we want to shape it while loving our country and each other

Karachi, Lahore can't think like fata, northern Balochistan, peshawar, Multan can't think like cholistan, South Punjab can't think like gilgit, they won't appease fata or cholistan and change thier culture, values- you naively believe they all follow the same Islamic values, no they don't, never did - it's not the silver you desperately seek

That'll be simply unacceptable, that's why we follow our constitution and democracy - so everyone can do whatever the hell they want to do , that's how modern states work

To change us to fit in is not the answer, it's never the answer- we don't want that, modern states can't work like that

giving people the right to shape thier society is the answer just as our constitution guarantees

Issue is you don't follow the constitution, democracy is not there

You make a good point if it was any other singular human ideology

But not many would go against Islamic ruling, and the ones who do will just protest, nothing serious.

 

[Erieye]

Wtf did I just read

If that was true then all of KPK and Northern Balochistan would still be burning.

I could be wrong but it's just my personal analysis.

KPK and North Balochistan is burning, but just on a small scale. You can't tell me these areas are secure as say Karachi, Lahore, Sindh, Punjab.

But they aren't burning to a high level because as I said, it's the sympathy aspect to both TTP and Pakistan both.

They tolerate low level insurgency but any serious threat, their sympathy for Pakistan overrides sympathy for TTP and it gets crushed. This is for TTP exclusively not Baloch groups by the way.

It also wouldn’t make sense because the biggest critique in PTI and PTM Pashtun circles is that they often see TTP as an extension of Pakistan Army. PTI is also the largest party in Punjab.

PTM circles also commonly sympathise/support TTP though.

I think PTI being the largest party in Punjab is quite irrelevant here, this is more of a Pashtun psychological POV analysis.

Inferiority complex and abandonment issues is what leads people to keep over inflating that.

I also blame Tik tok for that as well. Comment section wars are too wild.

I would disagree here, there is constant talk especially from Afghans on the separatist demands and incitement, and it historically has had a strong hold in Afghan politics.

Then you infuse the ethnic wars on social media it makes it somewhat a potential risk.

 

[Olympus81]

The issue in ex FATA areas is a complex one.

There are many interest groups (mafia) operating in the region. You have local players, army, police, immigration officials involved in oil/drugs/car/misc smuggling, human trafficking. There is just too much money involved. Decades of pride in ‘ilaka e ghair’ chicken has come home to roost.

Solutions are simple. Raise a force to manage the border. The fence was a good step. There needs to be proper border management.

Strict control of refugees into Pakistan.

Scrapping of Afghan Transit Trade and envisage a new agreement from the ground up.

Passive aggressive strategy towards TTP and be on a look out to take out their heads whenever there is intelligence of the same.

If Afghan Taliban are found to give refuge to TTP, then do not be afraid to take them out.

 

[Erieye]

The issue in ex FATA areas is a complex one.

There are many interest groups (mafia) operating in the region. You have local players, army, police, immigration officials involved in oil/drugs/car/misc smuggling, human trafficking. There is just too much money involved. Decades of pride in ‘ilaka e ghair’ chicken has come home to roost.

Solutions are simple. Raise a force to manage the border. The fence was a good step. There needs to be proper border management.

Strict control of refugees into Pakistan.

Scrapping of Afghan Transit Trade and envisage a new agreement from the ground up.

Passive aggressive strategy towards TTP and be on a look out to take out their heads whenever there is intelligence of the same.

If Afghan Taliban are found to give refuge to TTP, then do not be afraid to take them out.

In my opinion FATA is managable still, just need the right leadership.

It is entirely managable.

Pakistani biker crossing from Afghanistan into Pakistan via Torkham border.

 

[Olympus81]

In my opinion FATA is managable still, just need the right leadership.

It is entirely managable.

Yes, manageable.

I don’t believe Shariah or those type of laws will help. That will open a pandora box and with the quality of religious scholars Pakistan has. The version, firq of Sharia etc.

Simple application of law and dispensing of justice should suffice.

 

[Erieye]

Yes, manageable.

I don’t believe Shariah or those type of laws will do any good. That will open a pandora box and with the quality of religious scholars Pakistan has. The version, firq of Sharia etc.

Simple application of law and dispensing of justice should suffice.

Pakistan lacks quality exactly, whether it be religious scholars or anything else.

In everything it does. Zero quality, zero attention to detail, zero competency.

This nation urgently needs meritocracy. We need skilled people in charge, not babbu boomer uncles who think they know it all.

 

[villageidiot]

Kashmiri/GB muslims will still choose Pakistan even if there is an economic crisis. Religious identity and its associated safety comes first. Thinking will be: "sure, there are economic problems now but that will go away after X years"

Hypothetical situation:

1) Let's say you are a Hindu in Jammu
2) Let's assume that India is in deep economical trouble. There is shortage of everything and country is bankrupt
3) Assume that Pakistan's economy is roaring
4) Now in this situation, let's assume that a referendum is held.

Would you vote to join Pakistan under these circumstances?

EDIT: Apologies for hijacking the thread

Finally. An indian with guts to say the truth. I tip my non existent hat to you, sir.
Now, the question is to your fellow indian hindus is, do you see why kashmiris would want to join Pakistan if given the chance?

 

[Maula Jatt]

yes it can.

modern law hasnt solved it in 75 years.

- it's not the law's fault when you don't follow it, enforce it, your court system is overburdened, your LEA's are not working properly

Bring whatever law, it'll remain the same if your recepie remains the same - fix the recepie

and yes it was secularism from the very beginning,

You need to see the definition of secularism - our constitution is anything but secular

dictatorship

Dictatorship changes everything, man that broke the law by coming to power in the first place won't follow the constitution to it's true spirit

or not. Islamic law will not "alienate more people".

If it's followed the way it's followed by SA, isis, Brunei - it will alienate people as a portion of our society won't accept it as is, add in differences in sects it changes the whole game

since you know next to nothing about Islamic law, please do look up maqasid e shariah.

I admit I am not a scholar of islamic law, so I won't get into something I am knowledgeable in

But when people bring examples of shari'a law in governance

Saudia, Afghanistan under Taliban, isis states, a province of Indonesia, and Brunei comes to mind

When you look at examples of Parliamentary democracy, I'll look at UK, India, Australia, new Zealand, Canada and other British colonies

- I'll evaluate the Parliamentary system by looking at these countries and I'll evaluate shari'a-based governance by looking at those countries, I don't need to be a scholar to make my basic analysis by looking at the examples presented to me

it is only in the last 100 years or so that current modern system has taken shape, it isnt perfect nor is it good.

nothings perfect but its the best system of governance of a multi-ethnic, state- democracy, what kinda democracy, I am not sure (Indonesian style presidential system) but democracy is the best system of governance for a country like ours

we have seen it in our own country.

devolution of power has got nothing to do with democracy, it isnt the only system that guarantees it, and it cannot even enforce it (the provinces dont want to give up their power to cities/local bodies, the mna/mpa doesnt want to let go of civil service transfers and appointments). it is just a system of management, and valid under any form of govt.

I agree- devolution of power can take place in any system
but democracy makes it even better by giving people the power to elect officals who they deem best in this devolved system

but the law itself, penal code, ethical code, civil servant conduct code etc. everything must be Islamic.

besides, since it is an Islamic country, Islamic law is mandatory, at least for muslims.

It is mandatory- if you follow the constitution our laws cannot be in contradiction to islam, they are not islamic laws but they are not in contradiction to islamic laws (atleast this is what you are supposed to do on paper)

Pakistan lacks quality exactly, whether it be religious scholars or anything else.

In everything it does. Zero quality, zero attention to detail, zero competency.

This nation urgently needs meritocracy. We need skilled people in charge, not babbu boomer uncles who think they know it all.

thumbs up

 

[Ssan]

- it's not the law's fault when you don't follow it, enforce it, your court system is overburdened, your LEA's are not working properly

Bring whatever law, it'll remain the same if your recepie remains the same - fix the recepie

You need to see the definition of secularism - our constitution is anything but secular

Dictatorship changes everything, man that broke the law by coming to power in the first place won't follow the constitution to it's true spirit

If it's followed the way it's followed by SA, isis, Brunei - it will alienate people as a portion of our society won't accept it as is, add in differences in sects it changes the whole game

I admit I am not a scholar of islamic law, so I won't get into something I am knowledgeable in

But when people bring examples of shari'a law in governance

Saudia, Afghanistan under Taliban, isis states, a province of Indonesia, and Brunei comes to mind

When you look at examples of Parliamentary democracy, I'll look at UK, India, Australia, new Zealand, Canada and other British colonies

- I'll evaluate the Parliamentary system by looking at these countries and I'll evaluate shari'a-based governance by looking at those countries, I don't need to be a scholar to make my basic analysis by looking at the examples presented to me


nothings perfect but its the best system of governance of a multi-ethnic, state- democracy, what kinda democracy, I am not sure (Indonesian style presidential system) but democracy is the best system of governance for a country like ours

I agree- devolution of power can take place in any system
but democracy makes it even better by giving people the power to elect officals who they deem best in this devolved system

It is mandatory- if you follow the constitution our laws cannot be in contradiction to islam, they are not islamic laws but they are not in contradiction to islamic laws (atleast this is what you are supposed to do on paper)


thumbs up

You need to read up on Islamic democracy. The sort of system that people like Syed Sulayman Nadwi were pushing for. Islamic law does not contradict with democracy. Neither parliamentary or otherwise. Nor does it contradict rule of law or devolution of power or checks and balances. Or giving minorities rights.

We need to understand this. If you do, you are able to reconcile all of which Jinnah said. If you are not, you will remain confused as to what the founders of Pakistan wanted.

 

[S.Y.A]

Saudia, Afghanistan under Taliban, isis states, a province of Indonesia, and Brunei comes to mind

MashaAllah, clubbing isis and taliban with sauida and brunei shows the level of your thinking. even in democracy there will always be a class that is excluded, there is no multi ethnic nothing. the poor people, the minorities will also be shunned in a democracy. the state system will shun those who do not follow it e.g, commies and islamists in usa or its departments (they will never be in power). btw, malaysia also implements shariah inspired penal code, and it is a developmed country. shariah doesnt ask you to kill minorities.

it will alienate people as a portion of our society won't accept it as is, add in differences in sects it changes the whole game

same happens in democracy.

as for sects, all sects can be ruled by their own fiqh. courts will rule involving people of different sects according to the fiqh they follow. otherwise, as in democracy, the will of majority will be implemented. simple.

 

[Salik]

More Pushtuns are killed in Afghanistan. The standard of living of Pushtuns in Afghanistan is a disaster. The civil frictions that exist for Pushtuns in Afghanistan are far greater than any civil frictions in Pakistan. This is not a matter of economic or social well being for Pushtuns. Pakistan is a far greater land for us, yet the state craft and leadership is so weak we loose to a bullshit romantic notion of joining with Afghanistan, because no one focuses on this issue, and we dont have leaders who continue to drive in our youth the importance of staying within the social contract of Pakistan. Having said this people over inflate the Pushtun rebellion against Pakistan. Pushtuns are too well integrated economically and socially for this to happen anytime soon. But enemy states like India work in longer arc of times and they are playing the long game to destroy Pakistan. So over time this alienation is what India is working towards, and our weak leadership and national narrative does not help.

How long is the arc of time India is working in?

Before the last hundred years, the history of Afghanistan is marked by periods of war and conflict, as well as periods of relative peace and stability. Different dynasties, including the Timurid Empire, the Mughal Empire, the Hotaki dynasty, the Durrani Empire and the Barakzai dynasty, ruled over various parts of Afghanistan at different times. Each dynasty had its own unique impact on Afghan society, culture, and politics, and many of these periods were marked by conflict and violence. The number of casualties, including those among the Pashtun community, during these times is not known, but it is widely recognized that the Afghan people have suffered greatly as a result of conflict and violence.

The last hundred years have been challenging with periods of conflict resulting in significant loss of life, displacement, and human rights abuses. Despite these challenges, the Pashtun community has made important contributions to Afghan society, culture, and politics, and has played a central role in efforts to build a more peaceful and prosperous future for the country. There have been efforts to address the challenges faced by the Pashtun community, including support for education and economic development programs, and efforts to promote peace and reconciliation. So this has been a challenging period marked by foreign invasions, but also by efforts to preserve and promote their culture, heritage, and political rights.

Since the creation of Pakistan in 1947, the country has faced several periods of conflict and violence, particularly in the form of internal unrest and insurgency in various regions. These conflicts have resulted in significant loss of life and have affected all communities, including the Pashtun community. Additionally, the Pashtun community has been affected by other issues, including forced displacement, human rights abuses, and economic marginalization. Despite ongoing efforts to address these challenges, the situation remains the same and the Pashtun community continues to face many difficulties. Pakistan is expected to make a difference. Or at least accept the reality that it is how it is for centuries.

 

[itsanufy]

So, when are the IOK and Nagaland referendums scheduled for?


Kashmir deserves to be independent of both India and Pakistan. Unfortunately, India and Pakistan will never let it go. The only feasible option is to make LoC permanent interational border.

Check which parties are ruling Nagaland for three consequitive terms