It's GE F-414 for LCA Mk-II; EJ-200 loses the race in photo finish

[kingdurgaking]

Trying get my head round wat this decision means to go with American engine.

Intially really gutted India did not pik the euro fighter engine its virtually brand new technology with good TOT on offer at least 50% i think.

Also EADS could have played a big part in getting MK2 unto FOC.

COST WISE TOO THE EURO ENGINE WAS 20% cheaper

Why GE American engine its after all not new technology nut old improved power tech bt very reliable imust say.

Advantages
Tejasmk1 already using GE engine 404 SO IT MAKES LOGIC sense to go to bigger bros GE414 for mk2
Indians now used to working with GE engines
Better power and thrust than Euro engine
long history and very reliable since its American tech....
Good POWER for other single engined fighter like Gripen means ditto for Tejas MK2

Disadvantages
Sanctions threat exists
Older tech during war
No TOT
MORE COST
F18 S/H could now win MMRCA
usa political puppy fear for indians

a bit disappointed really

me too .. how ever main reason is
US arm twisting and already proven engine for single engine fighters...

This should not have happened atleast for tejas yaar..

 

[karan.1970]

every one you guys join me in chicago we will go for a ride in my new boat

Cool.. Chicago and Hartford are the 2 places I go most of the time. Though December may not be a great time for a boat ride in Chicago..

 

[karan.1970]

i am sorry sirjee to disappoint you... you are still drinking US liquor i guess thats why your brain has become mapped to understand the original realities.. please try to drink liquor which has been manufactured locally it will give you some insight....

I love an amrut single malt as much as I like a Jack Daniel or an Elijah Craig..

No one is suffering from US phobia... if you have time please read the Tejas LCA development life cycle.. please see the US roles.. please read all the news till date including consultancy which was asked recently.... ask yourself the question has all our companies have come out of sanction till now?????????????????? you know we have a good economy right this minute.... where will you hide your face now when you answer these questions?? (even you report this post and ban me it is fine when i speak the reality)

First about ban.. Who do you think I am..?? Probably a member who gets banned most often.. And why would I report your post.? You are entitled to your own opinion as am I. As long as both of us, in our hearts, are aiming towards whats best for India, we are on the same side.. Isnt it..?

May be I am wrong.. May be you are... But that does not make us adversaries.. Does it??

Historically America and India were on the opposite sides till end of 80's. Things we very different then. Its a different story now. No one bucks a successful story. And thats what India is today..

That way go back a few more decades, and UK was the colonial master of India. Doesnt mean that we will not buy British defence products (Jaguar or may be ever a Eurofighter)

All America did was sucked our talents (NRI) Non returning Indians by showing the greediness of $... it tried to kill all our local developments... etc etc...

You can say we suffer from american phobia... It is it which created it we havent developed it on our own...

And its those Indians spread all over the world in strong and powerful places that proliferate the success story of India. And earn a lot of foreign exchange for India. Not a bad deal I say..

As far as US considered i am not anti US... all i say we should not put expensive life or death deals with them... it is oke to buy radars, transports crafts, etc etc.. because $10 billion is not small amount it is a huge investment... and this engine deal has got lot of stake on our indigenous effort of Tejas which we cant push it to garbage...

As far as highlighted part it shows your knowledge on economics.. Forget about billion $ lets talk about million $... we cant waste million $ just like that ... it is not like throwing a phone and buying a new phone because your adapter is not working... million $ is a lot of money..and billion $ is much more... lot of our companies in india are million $ companies except a few.... if $10 billion is less US companies will not damn to join the MMRCA... it is a lot for them... dont argue stupidly saying we have alternatives we have money.. buddy money doesnt grow in tree.. it is hard earned... as far as alternatives are concerned we have to spend other resources apart from money resource.... especially time..

I dont understand your anger and calling me names.. Why would you throw away 10 billion dollars worth of stuff?? Does Pakistan think that if China stops being their friend, how will they get their JF 17s to fly. ?? No.. Not because it cant happen. But because they have evaluated the probability of that is very low

There is always a risk of a relationship going bad. But you need to evaluate that risk and take an informed call on whether its worth taking. In this case I believe it is.

 

[karan.1970]

can I join in

more the merrier...

 

[TopCat]

MRCA MRCA, i had been hearing this for the last five years. Nobody ever make that kind of noise to buy only 120 planes.
Whats going on here??? India is using that as a carrot to buy some Western attention???

 

[gubbi]

What rubbish!! GE-414 is fcukingly heavy engine. it will totally negate the purpose of a "Light" combat aircraft.

What do you expect aircraft engines to be made of? Papermache?
GE's F404 weighs in at 1,030 Kgs IIRC, while EJ-200 weighs in around 50 kg less. With F-414 being an advanced version of F-404, I believe the weight is further reduced. Add to it more thrust of F414. Anyone can quote numbers, no?

EJ-200 would require a bit more extensive remodeling of the aircraft frame than with F-414.

Besides it will accompany with imminent design changes in tejas MK2 which will definately add to 6-8 years of delay.

May I ask how?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

MRCA MRCA, i had been hearing this for the last five years. Nobody ever make that kind of noise to buy only 120 planes.
Whats going on here??? India is using that as a carrot to buy some Western attention???

120 planes that are..........

Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

extra:APG-79 AESA radar, Boeing has signed long-term partnership agreements with HAL, Tata Industries, and Larsen and Toubro, who would play a significant role in production and assembly of the aircraft.Limited ToT on the radar, up to the level approved by the US Government.

Dassault Rafale

extra:French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA AESA radar. Transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need be. Without the software source codes, the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale.And India and France have agree to "go beyond a buyer-seller relationship"

Eurofighter Typhoon

extra:Captor-E AESA radar.EADS has invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme if the Typhoon wins the contract, and will be given technological and development participation in future tranches of the Typhoon. Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS Defense Department, elaborated that if India becomes the fifth partner of the Eurofighter programme, it will be able to manufacture assemblies for new Eurofighters.EADS offered to include thrust vectoring nozzles with the Typhoon's EJ200 engines for India.


Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper

extra:The F-16IN, which is similar to the F-16 Block 60, will be a 4.5 generation aircraft. Lockheed Martin has stated that it will be the most advanced F-16 variant developed.Conformal Fuel Tanks, A Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 AESA, General Electric F110-132A engine with 143 kN full reheat thrust with FADEC Controls, Electronic warfare suites and infra-red searching, Advanced all-color glass cockpit, Helmet-mounted cueing system included. And Lockheed Martin has offered to sell India the F-35 Lightning II aircraft in the future, as replacements, if the F-16 is chosen.

Mikoyan MiG-35

extra:A major advantage of MiG-35 is that Russia is committed to transfer the plane's technology, including the new advanced Zhuk-AE Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, to India.

Saab Gripen NG

extra: not much..............

This IS a HUGE deal

 

[hecj]

so wat is the amt of this deal?.how much u.s will get frm this 99 engines.?

 

[sancho]

What do you expect aircraft engines to be made of? Papermache?
GE's F404 weighs in at 1,030 Kgs IIRC, while EJ-200 weighs in around 50 kg less. With F-414 being an advanced version of F-404, I believe the weight is further reduced. Add to it more thrust of F414. Anyone can quote numbers, no?

F414-GE-400 - 1109 kg (Dry thrust 62.3kN)
EJ 200 - 989Kg (Dry thrust 60kN)

So much for the myth that the GE engine is clearly more powerful.

 

[gubbi]

F414-GE-400 - 1109 kg (Dry thrust 62.3kN)
EJ 200 - 989Kg (Dry thrust 60kN)

So much for the myth that the GE engine is clearly more powerful.

What about military thrust?

F414=98kN
vs
EJ200=89kN.

And the cost factor.

 

[SpArK]

Why are people so insecure about GE engines.. Is nt it the GE engines we gonna use in our AirCraft Carriers too??

 

[500]

F414-GE-400 - 1109 kg (Dry thrust 62.3kN)
EJ 200 - 989Kg (Dry thrust 60kN)

So much for the myth that the GE engine is clearly more powerful.

According to data that I have:

-------------- dry ----- wet ------ weight
F414 ----- 65.5 kN --- 97 kN --- 1107 kg
EJ2000 -- 59.9 kN --- 89.8 kN -- 1037 kg

 

[kashith]

MRCA MRCA, i had been hearing this for the last five years. Nobody ever make that kind of noise to buy only 120 planes.
Whats going on here??? India is using that as a carrot to buy some Western attention???

you got us.This deal shows that india has money to spare so , it will be a good thing for foreign companies to come to india

 

[kingdurgaking]

That way go back a few more decades, and UK was the colonial master of India. Doesnt mean that we will not buy British defence products (Jaguar or may be ever a Eurofighter)

And its those Indians spread all over the world in strong and powerful places that proliferate the success story of India. And earn a lot of foreign exchange for India. Not a bad deal I say..

I dont understand your anger and calling me names.. Why would you throw away 10 billion dollars worth of stuff?? Does Pakistan think that if China stops being their friend, how will they get their JF 17s to fly. ?? No.. Not because it cant happen. But because they have evaluated the probability of that is very low

There is always a risk of a relationship going bad. But you need to evaluate that risk and take an informed call on whether its worth taking. In this case I believe it is.

Buddy you still understand the myth... we are not talking on colonization or america products ban... we are talking about america product on Tejas onlyyyy... Tejas as suffered a lot in there hands before sanction and after sanction.. i am just emphasizing on that ... Atleast for Tejas we should say good bye for America...

I am not a opposer of F18... if F18 suits our peoples doctrine then i am a supporter for it... yes i dont like US arm twist act.. which makes the strength of F18 a pure liability on our shoulder... though F18 is best a liability becomes a liability...

Secondly on the risk, IAF has been working superbly ... if F18 is choosen ... we will be the biggest air force in the world to hold both Russian as well as American birds.. we even posses Europeans .. so if America drops a hammer we still have russia who are trust worthy.. so i am not talking on rejection of F18 at all.. i even believe IAF will think on those line..

As for brain drain you are very much wrong.. you see only Foreign exchange as a positive part.. see the other side of the coin.. the successful product which america is selling and making huge profit... which is several factorial more than foreign exchange.. as such America is not a fool to hire IIT's, IIM's etc .. even though they themselves struggling with ex pats but still they are not sent away why??

 

[kingdurgaking]

MRCA MRCA, i had been hearing this for the last five years. Nobody ever make that kind of noise to buy only 120 planes.
Whats going on here??? India is using that as a carrot to buy some Western attention???

Buddy MMRCA is not aimed at your country... Your country was not in Indian radar for launching the MMRCA drama so why you are worried? it was launched on consideration with 2 powerful nuclear neighbours on North and west... why are you waiting for this news? just move on.. you first need to have a doctrine to suppress the crashing Mig 21 and Mig 27... then comes jaguar, mirages, then comes the MMRCA...you have a long way to cross to worry about MMRCA.. and i am just dropping MKI because you need to be atleast equal to singapore or taiwan for us to worry on MKI front.. because they are more advanced and more in numbers....

so go and have a peaceful ...