Italian Secretary-General Defense hails Pakistan Navy

[war&peace]

Leonardo would win either way. If the PN went with Saab, Leonardo would still get contracts for the AESA radar and other sensors (Saab picked those for the Swordfish configuration). If the PN went with Leonardo, then Leonardo will choose subsystems from its own products.

I support SAAB for obvious reasons

 

[Ark_Angel]

If the goal is for a miniature SSK with ASW/AShW, then I think they'll wait after the Hangor SSP. It seems the goal right now is to build the SLOC/EEZ capability first via frigates and SSPs, and then move to strengthening the littoral segment. For littoral, they can look at additional corvettes, FACs, and mini-SSKs.


The d-level MRO for the AW139 is already in the books with PAC, they should start building it in the next 1-2 years (direct from PAC itself during IDEAS 2018). However, Leonardo does want to sell AW101s, AW139s and AW159s to the PN, and ensure its place in any future LRMPA program.

Italians are pitching AW-101s for Replacement of Sea Kings. Moreover, The main Italian MBDA cheif was also with the Dignitary. Talks are on for SAM(Aster-15/30) for J-Class frigates. As far as LRMPs are concerned SAAB us least interested to pitch their SwordFish here. Even though they have been approached multiple times but they currently aren’t interested due to probably Indian 119 Jets tender.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1185081489404375040

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Italians are pitching AW-101s for Replacement of Sea Kings. Moreover, The main Italian MBDA cheif was also with the Dignitary. Talks are on for SAM(Aster-15/30) for J-Class frigates. As far as LRMPs are concerned SAAB us least interested to pitch their SwordFish here. Even though they have been approached multiple times but they currently aren’t interested due to probably Indian 119 Jets tender.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1185081489404375040

Most of the Swordfish's configuration is 3rd-party COTS: Leonardo Seaspray 7300/7500 AESA radar, Star SAFIRE EO/IR, Elettronica ESM, etc. It's more or less the same as the Sea Eagle MPA configuration except for the CMS, but we got an alternative CMS via Aerodata AG with the sensor fusion engine and all.

I think the main challenge would be re-implementing the Sea Eagle to a suitably larger aircraft, such as the Bombardier Global 6000, but I'm sure Rheinland Air Service (RAS) is up to the job, as is Leonardo.

As for MBDA. I spoke to MBDA at IDEAS 2018 and they told me they were pitching the Aster-15 for "a future program," which I guess is the J-Class. So, is it a case now where the PN split the J-Class' weapons and sensor work from the shipbuilding work?

 

[HRK]

Most of the Swordfish's configuration is 3rd-party COTS: Leonardo Seaspray 7300/7500 AESA radar, Star SAFIRE EO/IR, Elettronica ESM, etc. It's more or less the same as the Sea Eagle MPA configuration except for the CMS, but we got an alternative CMS via Aerodata AG with the sensor fusion engine and all.

I think the main challenge would be re-implementing the Sea Eagle to a suitably larger aircraft, such as the Bombardier Global 6000, but I'm sure Rheinland Air Service (RAS) is up to the job, as is Leonardo.

As for MBDA. I spoke to MBDA at IDEAS 2018 and they told me they were pitching the Aster-15 for "a future program," which I guess is the J-Class. So, is it a case now where the PN split the J-Class' weapons and sensor work from the shipbuilding work?

But as per published reports PN is going with HHQ-16 for J-class air defence so where Aster-15 would fit in any of the future acquisition of PN ......?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

But as per published reports PN is going with HHQ-16 for J-class air defence so where Aster-15 would fit in any of the future acquisition of PN ......?

The PN might have decided on the HQ-16, but they may not have signed a contract with China yet to purchase those systems. They could have simply split the shipbuilding from the configuration/integration work (the Indonesians did so with their SIGMA frigates a couple of years ago).

 

[Ark_Angel]

But as per published reports PN is going with HHQ-16 for J-class air defence so where Aster-15 would fit in any of the future acquisition of PN ......?

Chinese have blacklisted the Turks and have refused to work with them or their platforms. After a lot of requests which went unheeded PN has decided to go for the Italian bid which was albeit slightly more expensive otherwise the program would have suffered another timeline delay. One theory that many believe was that Chinese deliberately were creating undue obsctacles in the program in order to scuttle the J-Class program and bait PN into picking up their offer of 04 more 54As.

Most of the Swordfish's configuration is 3rd-party COTS: Leonardo Seaspray 7300/7500 AESA radar, Star SAFIRE EO/IR, Elettronica ESM, etc. It's more or less the same as the Sea Eagle MPA configuration except for the CMS, but we got an alternative CMS via Aerodata AG with the sensor fusion engine and all.

I think the main challenge would be re-implementing the Sea Eagle to a suitably larger aircraft, such as the Bombardier Global 6000, but I'm sure Rheinland Air Service (RAS) is up to the job, as is Leonardo.

As for MBDA. I spoke to MBDA at IDEAS 2018 and they told me they were pitching the Aster-15 for "a future program," which I guess is the J-Class. So, is it a case now where the PN split the J-Class' weapons and sensor work from the shipbuilding work?

PN always sources weapon and sensor work as per its own reqs as it mitigates cost. Minus the 054A program which by design will be an exact replica of what the PLAN has. As far as Swordfish is concerned it was and still is regarded as one of the most ideal platforms for the Jet LRMP req. but the swedes as usual as are being a pain in neck. If Leonardo had a ready Platform as their Jet LRMP candidate the deal have been already signed with them. But Jet LRMPs are a unique breed of a platform and difficult for a country like us to source from in a readily available for condition, no strings attached

 

[khanasifm]

Chinese have blacklisted the Turks and have refused to work with them or their platforms. After a lot of requests which went unheeded PN has decided to go for the Italian bid which was albeit slightly more expensive otherwise the program would have suffered another timeline delay. One theory that many believe was that Chinese deliberately were creating undue obsctacles in the program in order to scuttle the J-Class program and bait PN into picking up their offer of 04 more 54As.

PN always sources weapon and sensor work as per its own reqs as it mitigates cost. Minus the 054A program which by design will be an exact replica of what the PLAN has. As far as Swordfish is concerned it was and still is regarded as one of the most ideal platforms for the Jet LRMP req. but the swedes as usual as are being a pain in neck. If Leonardo had a ready Platform as their Jet LRMP candidate the deal have been already signed with them. But Jet LRMPs are a unique breed of a platform and difficult for a country like us to source from in a readily available for condition, no strings attached

054a/p is not exact replica as the radar, ssm are different not sure about other stuff like sonar, Combat system etc

F22p has German sonar and other goodies as well such as propulsion from MTU

Not sure if pn had plans to infroduce turkisk combat system which ties all sensors creating a unified pic

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Chinese have blacklisted the Turks and have refused to work with them or their platforms. After a lot of requests which went unheeded PN has decided to go for the Italian bid which was albeit slightly more expensive otherwise the program would have suffered another timeline delay. One theory that many believe was that Chinese deliberately were creating undue obsctacles in the program in order to scuttle the J-Class program and bait PN into picking up their offer of 04 more 54As.

PN always sources weapon and sensor work as per its own reqs as it mitigates cost. Minus the 054A program which by design will be an exact replica of what the PLAN has. As far as Swordfish is concerned it was and still is regarded as one of the most ideal platforms for the Jet LRMP req. but the swedes as usual as are being a pain in neck. If Leonardo had a ready Platform as their Jet LRMP candidate the deal have been already signed with them. But Jet LRMPs are a unique breed of a platform and difficult for a country like us to source from in a readily available for condition, no strings attached

For what it's worth, the Bombardier Global 6000 (which the Swordfish uses) is Canadian and cleared for military use by anyone. It's ITAR-free. The Turks actually took the same jet and are using it for their stand-off EW platform.

Through the ATR-72 MPA (Sea Eagle) program, the PN basically set-up its own equivalent to the Swordfish -- same sensors, but different CMS and weapons. We just need an experienced integrator to take the Sea Eagle and fit it to the Bombardier Global 6000, which obviously has its challenges (which Saab studied and solved).

We can actually work with the German companies we contracted for the ATR-72 MPA to basically create a direct competitor to the Swordfish. Sea Eagle XR.

 

[Rafi]

For what it's worth, the Bombardier Global 6000 (which the Swordfish uses) is Canadian and cleared for military use by anyone. It's ITAR-free. The Turks actually took the same jet and are using it for their stand-off EW platform.

Through the ATR-72 MPA (Sea Eagle) program, the PN basically set-up its own equivalent to the Swordfish -- same sensors, but different CMS and weapons. We just need an experienced integrator to take the Sea Eagle and fit it to the Bombardier Global 6000, which obviously has its challenges (which Saab studied and solved).

We can actually work with the German companies we contracted for the ATR-72 MPA to basically create a direct competitor to the Swordfish. Sea Eagle XR.

I believe that is what is going to happen, I believe a MAD is being considered from a European source.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

So, since the PN is looking at new sensor and weapon suppliers for the Jinnah-class. I think this would be a good opportunity to invest in the Umkhonto EIR and Marlin from South Africa. We can push for manufacturing both missiles (and maybe even the Denel Cheetah as our PDMS) if we co-fund the development.

 

[Ark_Angel]

054a/p is not exact replica as the radar, ssm are different not sure about other stuff like sonar, Combat system etc

F22p has German sonar and other goodies as well such as propulsion from MTU

Not sure if pn had plans to infroduce turkisk combat system which ties all sensors creating a unified pic

All Chinese Electronics esp Radars exported are always a different version than their own, however, they claim to have the same capability and design and principles. SSMs will be different nothing new in that.

For what it's worth, the Bombardier Global 6000 (which the Swordfish uses) is Canadian and cleared for military use by anyone. It's ITAR-free. The Turks actually took the same jet and are using it for their stand-off EW platform.

Through the ATR-72 MPA (Sea Eagle) program, the PN basically set-up its own equivalent to the Swordfish -- same sensors, but different CMS and weapons. We just need an experienced integrator to take the Sea Eagle and fit it to the Bombardier Global 6000, which obviously has its challenges (which Saab studied and solved).

We can actually work with the German companies we contracted for the ATR-72 MPA to basically create a direct competitor to the Swordfish. Sea Eagle XR.

Contract from Bombardier, Contract Integrator, Contract for Weapons and Sensors, Iron out Problems, Issues and Challenges, Integrate Hard points for AShM, Torpedoes....That’s practically half a decade of Negotiations and WPTA(Weapon Platform Testing Analysis) Cycle. Time is something which PN wants to shorten and this route is pratically extremely time consuming and prone to unde delays. PN is looking for a Jet Set Ready Platform which avoids PN the hassle and mitigates cost and time. Hava SOJ is a complex project but as far as Bombardier 6000 isn’t being used to Lob SOM it’s less challenging. Where as When you want to launch AsMs & Torpedoes from the Jet it’s an extremely challenging, time consuming and a capital intensive exercise. A venture for which Countries like Pakistan are averse to.

So, since the PN is looking at new sensor and weapon suppliers for the Jinnah-class. I think this would be a good opportunity to invest in the Umkhonto EIR and Marlin from South Africa. We can push for manufacturing both missiles (and maybe even the Denel Cheetah as our PDMS) if we co-fund the development.

Investing for manufacturing isn’t an option as the system in question has already completed its major developmental cycles. Moreover, Economy of scale does not allow for such a venture to go ahead. However, Umkhonto-ER-IR is an option(Fair Chances). Aster 15 the best option still but much more costlier. If the Italians won’t compromise on Cost then you might see ER-IR here.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

All Chinese Electronics esp Radars exported are always a different version than their own, however, they claim to have the same capability and design and principles. SSMs will be different nothing new in that.


Contract from Bombardier, Contract Integrator, Contract for Weapons and Sensors, Iron out Problems, Issues and Challenges, Integrate Hard points for AShM, Torpedoes....That’s practically half a decade of Negotiations and WPTA(Weapon Platform Testing Analysis) Cycle. Time is something which PN wants to shorten and this route is pratically extremely time consuming and prone to unde delays. PN is looking for a Jet Set Ready Platform which avoids PN the hassle and mitigates cost and time. Hava SOJ is a complex project but as far as Bombardier 6000 isn’t being used to Lob SOM it’s less challenging. Where as When you want to launch AsMs & Torpedoes from the Jet it’s an extremely challenging, time consuming and a capital intensive exercise. A venture for which Countries like Pakistan are averse to.


Investing for manufacturing isn’t an option as the system in question has already completed its major developmental cycles. Moreover, Economy of scale does not allow for such a venture to go ahead. However, Umkhonto-ER-IR is an option(Fair Chances). Aster 15 the best option still but much more costlier. If the Italians won’t compromise on Cost then you might see ER-IR here.

I agree, but the Denel Marlin is still in development.

I think we can achieve economies of scale for the Marlin as it's both a SAM and AAM.

Denel is using the same dual motor pulse engine technology to develop a BVRAAM (100 km) and a MR-SAM (60 km). We can implement the BVRAAM with the PAF and the MR-SAM with the PN, PAF and PA (as a mobile SAM). Moreover, we can continue developing upon the dual motor pulse technology to develop new variants of both the BVRAAM and SAM (block building).

 

[Ark_Angel]

I agree, but the Denel Marlin is still in development.

I think we can achieve economies of scale for the Marlin as it's both a SAM and AAM.

Denel is using the same dual motor pulse engine technology to develop a BVRAAM (100 km) and a MR-SAM (60 km). We can implement the BVRAAM with the PAF and the MR-SAM with the PN, PAF and PA (as a mobile SAM). Moreover, we can continue developing upon the dual motor pulse technology to develop new variants of both the BVRAAM and SAM (block building).

For such Projects Cost & Benefit analysis has always lead to one result: Marginal Capability Upgrade achieved against Capital Invested. I’ll break it down for simplicity of Young Members here:
Marlin in A2A Config has a Range of 100 Km(apropos reference to your reply)
Current AAMs of PAF already surpass or have the range cited above. Capability in terms of Range is already available to PAF, where as The Capability being attained by Adversary exceeds more than 50% of the Range of the Marlin, Moreover Their Indigenous Product also has a similar range to an under developed under Tested Missile like Marlin. When a country like Pakistan which makes count every $ spent in terms of Weapon import realises that the capability being Attained is less than spectacular therefore it’s always better to go for a ready made solution to save Time, Capacity and Capital. If for say Marlin was a VLAAM or a Ram Jet Powered 100-120 NM AAM I wouldn’t see any reason for PAF to not turn to Denel for any such Proposal/Offer. For such a Project All hands would be on deck. But when you already have AAMs surpassing the capability being developed the Higher Ups wont see any meaningful reason to use limited capital on a project to attain a capability which already exists.
Moreover, PN & PAF have separate acquisition and Development plans and therefore A common acquisition is hardly a thing/ or a part of culture here unless a Project has been locally conceived by a Local Entity i.e AWC or NESCOM for example and it pitches the product on a tri-services level. Therefore I see no reason to invest limited capital on a indigenously manufactured MR-SAM when the capability required is urgent and averse to risk taking approach. One small glitch in the program and it risks taking down 2-3 major projects down with it.
PL-15,Meteor,AIM-120D is the name of the game for PAF now. The Enemy is already at the gates.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

For such Projects Cost & Benefit analysis has always lead to one result: Marginal Capability Upgrade achieved against Capital Invested. I’ll break it down for simplicity of Young Members here:
Marlin in A2A Config has a Range of 100 Km(apropos reference to your reply)
Current AAMs of PAF already surpass or have the range cited above. Capability in terms of Range is already available to PAF, where as The Capability being attained by Adversary exceeds more than 50% of the Range of the Marlin, Moreover Their Indigenous Product also has a similar range to an under developed under Tested Missile like Marlin. When a country like Pakistan which makes count every $ spent in terms of Weapon import realises that the capability being Attained is less than spectacular therefore it’s always better to go for a ready made solution to save Time, Capacity and Capital. If for say Marlin was a VLAAM or a Ram Jet Powered 100-120 NM AAM I wouldn’t see any reason for PAF to not turn to Denel for any such Proposal/Offer. For such a Project All hands would be on deck. But when you already have AAMs surpassing the capability being developed the Higher Ups wont see any meaningful reason to use limited capital on a project to attain a capability which already exists.
Moreover, PN & PAF have separate acquisition and Development plans and therefore A common acquisition is hardly a thing/ or a part of culture here unless a Project has been locally conceived by a Local Entity i.e AWC or NESCOM for example and it pitches the product on a tri-services level. Therefore I see no reason to invest limited capital on a indigenously manufactured MR-SAM when the capability required is urgent and averse to risk taking approach. One small glitch in the program and it risks taking down 2-3 major projects down with it.
PL-15,Meteor,AIM-120D is the name of the game for PAF now. The Enemy is already at the gates.

I agree with you on all points. But the reason why I stress the need for indigenous or joint-development is that our long-term pool of options is dwindling.

The PAF is at the point where it must develop a large fighter on its own (Project Azm) because today, it really has no other option.

So, all those risks and resources must be paid for in down the line instead of say 10-15 years ago (had we done this earlier). Likewise, I only bring up the Marlin on the basis of getting access to its critical technologies (rocket motor). If we can absorb the know-how about those rockets, we can develop them in the future and get our own longer-ranged equivalents. We can approach people for the PL-15, AIM-120D or Meteor today, but 10-15 years from now, history tells us that our options for the next wave of BVRAAMs will dwindle to even further (as it has for fighters).

I think we can reach a middle ground where we approach projects like Marlin et. al for the sake of their critical inputs only. So we keep the R&D spending to a minimal for the sake of learning rocket motor tech, seekers, ECCM, etc, and then kick-start a serviceable project with full funding when we really need it.

 

[PAR 5]

Cough "drass 450" cough cough, (finances only hiccup).

Snowballs Chance in Hell!