Israelis ask if it is TRUE in PAF's capability?

[rockstarIN]

somethings will never be publically validated to ease your mind

mig19 so as ive heard was a very powerful double engined fighter-- and it was one of its very strong points as an interceptor ---Rate of climb: +180 m/s [if im not wrong] -- you are continously underestimating the quality of our pilots , by gaudging against mig21 track record in your country

The F-6 formed part of PAF's No. 17 and No. 23 Squadrons.

First 2 F-6 arrived at Sargodha Airbase from the Chinese airfield at Hotian on 20 December 1965, aircraft were equipped with VHF radios and Soviet style instruments/equipment
One InAF author had remarked :
"had PAF got 20 squadrons of F-6 alone without the B-57s, F-104s, Mirages and Sabers, the InAF would had got a very tough time "

When Americans offered the F-5E to Pakistan , PAF simply rejected it and claimed that its F-6s were equal ( a bit of exaggeration by PAF to confirm its bid for the latest F-16A) and to prove its point it also offered a fly off. The Americans declined!

Few quick points,

-I'm not underestimating pilot skills specially in 1970s era coz ithat time it was all manual than any fly by wire systems, which I have already stated before in my post.

-F-6 is a very good plane and supersonic, but not powerful as Mig-21, which was the best of USSR jets that time. I knew that F-6 was with PAF for long.
Rgds,

 

[nescafe]

being the most powerful regional power with the unqualified support of the West especially America, why would its obnoxious policy makers would seek peace? such things are for the weak.

its really hard to be good & humane when one has such a status & power like Israel. if you ever read about the Zionists greater Israel ideology then you will note that it extrends from banks of red sea to as far as vicinities of Mecca & Madina.
this is why you constantly see the country expanding since 1948. check its map then and now.. All Western lectures on democracy, fairness, humanity & their lamenting of third world countries for their dismal record of scocial justice etc takes a back seat when it comes to Israeli treatment of Palestinians and its covert and overt operations on the countries arround it.. sorry got carried away and getting off topic.. but your one liner was very loaded if you knwo what I mean.

back to the topic

On 26 April 1974, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi on deputation to No. 67 Squadron, Syrian Air Force (SAF) was flying a SAF MiG-21FL (serial no. 1863) out of Dumayr Air Base, Syria in a two-ship formation with a fellow PAF pilot and the Flight Leader, Sqn. Ldr. Arif Manzoor. The Ground Controller, also a PAF officer, Sqn. Ldr. Salim Metla, vectored the two PAF pilots to a formation of 2 Israeli Air Force Mirage IIICJs and 2 F-4 Phantoms that had intruded into Syrian airspace over the Golan Heights. In the engagement that took place at 1532 hours, Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi shot down an Israeli Mirage IIICJ using his MiG-21's R(K)-13 air-to-air missile. The pilot of the downed Israeli Mirage was Capt. M. Lutz of No. 5 Air Wing, who ejected. The remaining Israeli fighters aborted the mission.


Flight Lieutenant Alvi

Check the following extract and the link for more

Breaking off to the right after downing the Mirage, Saif spotted a Vautour coming head-on, about 2,000 feet below. Without batting an eyelid, Saif inverted his aircraft and pulled through for a 'split-S.' The maneuver can go awry if there is insufficient clearance from the ground, but Saif pulled back on the control stick to the point of almost blacking out. When he leveled off, he found himself behind the Vautour, charging in with a very high rate of closure despite the speed brakes opened and throttle pulled back to idle. The distance was now only 200 feet, too close for the safety of his own aircraft were the much larger Vautour to explode like his previous victim. Deciding not to miss the chance, Saif opened fire and after three bursts of his cannon, saw parts of the aircraft fly off. His own aircraft juddered as if hit by something; Saif had to look around to be sure he was not being shot at.

double thumbs up....

 

[SQ8]

Boss..no, its not to debunk a Pakistani victory, it is just a doubt.

Migs really need good flying hours to master it specially Mig-21.(for e.g most of the Indian Mig-21 crashes due to either pilot error or engine problem, coz its a Mach 2, powerful jet). There is no fly by wire system in 70s. So you need to manually really fly those stuff. Its been explained by the professionals here, not my words.

F-6 is a copy of Mig-19 farmer, it is far less powerful than Mig-21s

Rgds,

PAF pilots had been on deputations to the Arab countries previously as well..
Sattar Alvi had previous experience on the Mig-21 on deputation in Syria for well over a year.
Please dont think that the PAF pilots only flew their own jets and never left their own airspace..
MM Alam had quite a bit of hours on the Hunter as well.
so did Saif-ul-Azam..
Spare the "technical" critique on flying techniques and requirements..

 

[rockstarIN]

^^

Really make sense, thanks

Spare the "technical" critique on flying techniques and requirements..

No, I'm not, I know both are different but go side by side.

 

[GOD OF WAR]

well, if it helps substantiating some facts, let me also add that the famed M M Alam was also present in Syria and took part in the campaign. PAF did infact down more than 9 israeli aircrafts however only 9 were confirmed kills.

As far as mastering the Mig 21 to fly, it may be difficult for the Indians but for PAF pilots.....

Secondly, even though M M Alam is considered one of the best fighter pilot the world of air combat knows, he was tasked in flying in the first mirages and F16s for the PAF. He mastered the training in half of the required time which left the French and Americans at great awe.

M.M. Alam is probably one of the few pilots to have cross trained in numerous aircrafts. Namely F-86 Sabre, F-4 Phantom, F-5 Tiger, A10 ThunderBolt, Mirage (not sure III or 5) and F-16 Fighting Falcon. there may be a few more, however I cannot remember them at the time of this writing. Btw, M. M. Alam is my mammoo so all this is 1st hand information, i have also seen alot of his certificates awarded to him fro completing trainings in these aircrafts.

See, we told you PAF pilots were and are better than most, and certainly IAF pilots

 

[Musalman]

This should be in Pakistan. Iraqi AF Hunter aircraft piloted by PAF Saif-ul-Azam - 1967 Arab-Israel war. 2 kills (Mirage-III, Vatour Bomber).

or Bangladesh, from where he retired

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

being the most powerful regional power with the unqualified support of the West especially America, why would its obnoxious policy makers would seek peace? such things are for the weak.

its really hard to be good & humane when one has such a status & power like Israel. if you ever read about the Zionists greater Israel ideology then you will note that it extrends from banks of red sea to as far as vicinities of Mecca & Madina.
this is why you constantly see the country expanding since 1948. check its map then and now.. All Western lectures on democracy, fairness, humanity & their lamenting of third world countries for their dismal record of scocial justice etc takes a back seat when it comes to Israeli treatment of Palestinians and its covert and overt operations on the countries arround it.. sorry got carried away and getting off topic.. but your one liner was very loaded if you knwo what I mean.

back to the topic

On 26 April 1974, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi on deputation to No. 67 Squadron, Syrian Air Force (SAF) was flying a SAF MiG-21FL (serial no. 1863) out of Dumayr Air Base, Syria in a two-ship formation with a fellow PAF pilot and the Flight Leader, Sqn. Ldr. Arif Manzoor. The Ground Controller, also a PAF officer, Sqn. Ldr. Salim Metla, vectored the two PAF pilots to a formation of 2 Israeli Air Force Mirage IIICJs and 2 F-4 Phantoms that had intruded into Syrian airspace over the Golan Heights. In the engagement that took place at 1532 hours, Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi shot down an Israeli Mirage IIICJ using his MiG-21's R(K)-13 air-to-air missile. The pilot of the downed Israeli Mirage was Capt. M. Lutz of No. 5 Air Wing, who ejected. The remaining Israeli fighters aborted the mission.


Flight Lieutenant Alvi

Check the following extract and the link for more

Breaking off to the right after downing the Mirage, Saif spotted a Vautour coming head-on, about 2,000 feet below. Without batting an eyelid, Saif inverted his aircraft and pulled through for a 'split-S.' The maneuver can go awry if there is insufficient clearance from the ground, but Saif pulled back on the control stick to the point of almost blacking out. When he leveled off, he found himself behind the Vautour, charging in with a very high rate of closure despite the speed brakes opened and throttle pulled back to idle. The distance was now only 200 feet, too close for the safety of his own aircraft were the much larger Vautour to explode like his previous victim. Deciding not to miss the chance, Saif opened fire and after three bursts of his cannon, saw parts of the aircraft fly off. His own aircraft juddered as if hit by something; Saif had to look around to be sure he was not being shot at.

There was nt a way to give two thumbs up for the above post!!!

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I have seen some of the things PAF pilots can do... As a child I used to see the A 5 bombers based in Peshawar in our skies all the time... I remember the F6 as well and have seen Mirage and F16s... but one of my memories is that of an A 5 plane which was nt going in the usual place for making a landing at the airport, and suddenly it did the most weird manouvers to correct its landing path, I ll never forget that... It was like the plane was skiding sideways as if the air were ice and it were doing ice skating... and then went down to land...

If our pilots can do such things with a plane made in 1960, I wonder what tricks they have to pull out of their sleeves in a war time situation and a dog fight!!!

 

[500]

True. One of the pilot even got the title "Sword of HUssein" for his bravery.
Out of the 20 Aircrafts that Israel lost, 9 were done by PAF pilots.

During Six Day war of 1967 Israel lost 46 aircrafts. 2-3 were shot by Pakistani pilots (2 Vautour and 1 Mystere bombers).

 

[sensenreason]

During Six Day war of 1967 Israel lost 46 aircrafts. 2-3 were shot by Pakistani pilots (2 Vautour and 1 Mystere bombers).

Can someone explain the source of the alleged PAF pilots superiority in the 6-day war?

If the pilots were superior,its important to understand if they were

- SuperMen
- Better trained
- Lucky
- Fitter
- Smarter
- Flying better planes
- Deploying better tactics

Please enlighten us with the basis for this so-called slaying of IAF.

 

[Aslan]

Can someone explain the source of the alleged PAF pilots superiority in the 6-day war?

If the pilots were superior,its important to understand if they were

- SuperMen
- Better trained
- Lucky
- Fitter
- Smarter
- Flying better planes
- Deploying better tactics

.

In your hate towards Pakistan you even ignored the fact that that dude who is actually telling you about the PAF kills is actually an israeli him self. Hadh hai yaar, itna sadna acha nahi hota.

Please enlighten us with the basis for this so-called slaying of IAF

I think u are old enough to search it online your self. And it is a historically accepted fact that in both the wars PAF had the better of IAF. That didnt make the IAF any less of an air force, as much as I hate the Israelis I still have no shame in admitting the fact that they are one of the best AF in the world. Not only in their equipment quality, but when the Arabs had almost similar planes and more in quantity, the Israelis were and are better Pilots.

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

@RaptorRX707

I dont think that was a big issue, you could have searched it on the internet.

1967 ARAB-ISRAEL WAR:

RJAF and PAF were flying under a joint command. Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam became the only pilot from the Arab side to have shot down 3 IDF/AF aircraft within 72 hours and also the only pilot to have shot down 3 different aircraft types of the IDF/AF. He was, subsequently, decorated by Jordan, Iraq, Syria and Pakistan. According to the Pakistani military, PAF pilots performed excellently and downed about 10 Israeli planes including Mirages, Mysteres, Vautours without losing a single pilot or single aircraft of their own.

1973 ARAB-ISRAEL WAR:

During the war 16 PAF pilots volunteered to go to the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived, Egypt had already been pushed into a ceasefire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel.
On 23 October 1973, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. M. Hatif on deputation to Egyptian Air Force (EAF) was flying a EAF MiG-21 in a defensive combat air patrol (CAP) over Egypt when he was vectored towards an intruding Israeli Air Force (IDF/AF) F-4 Phantom. In the ensuing dogfight, Flt. Lt. M. Hatif shot down the Israeli Phantom.
Eight PAF pilots started flying out of Syrian Airbases; they formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr Airbase. The Pakistani pilots flew Syrian MiG-21 aircraft conducting CAP missions for the Syrians.
On 26 April 1974, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi on deputation to No. 67 Squadron, Syrian Air Force (SAF) was flying a SAF MiG-21FL (serial no. 1863) out of Dumayr Air Base, Syria in a two-ship formation with a fellow PAF pilot and the Flight Leader, Sqn. Ldr. Arif Manzoor. The Ground Controller, also a PAF officer, Sqn. Ldr. Salim Metla, vectored the two PAF pilots to a formation of 2 Israeli Air Force Mirage IIICJs and 2 F-4 Phantoms that had intruded into Syrian airspace over the Golan Heights. In the engagement that took place at 1532 hours, Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi shot down an Israeli Mirage IIICJ using his MiG-21's R(K)-13 air-to-air missile. The pilot of the downed Israeli Mirage was Capt. M. Lutz of No. 5 Air Wing, who ejected. The remaining Israeli fighters aborted the mission. The 2 IAF Mirage IIICJs were from Hatzor AFB and the 2 IAF F-4 Phantoms were from No. 1 Air Wing, Ramat David AFB, Israel.
Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi became the first Pakistani pilot, during the Yom Kippur War, to shoot down an Israeli Mirage in air combat.He was honored by the Syrian government. Other aerial encounters involved Israeli F-4 Phantoms; Pakistan Air Force did not lose a single pilot or aircraft during this war.

source: Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

assalam alaikum

while i was going thru some sites i saw some comments from egyptian pilost to pak pilots and how they learned some tricks they used against israelies ( eventhough it didnot help the outcome of the war). One of the egyptiam member of the forum also talked about it.

قبل وصولِ المقاتلات الميراج الجديدة إلي ليبيا ، تم تجهيز قاعدة رئيسيه للصيانة و تدريب الأطقمِ وتخزينِ الأسلحةِ, و كَانَ المطار المختار لها في ليبيا هو القاعدة الكبيرة عقبة بن نافع (هذه القاعدة هي القاعدة الأمريكية هويلس سابق&#1575 بقيادة الطيار صالح عبد الله و قائد القوات الجوية الليبية وقتها كان الطيار صالح الفرجاني و هذه قاعدة كبيره و مجهزة بناها الأمريكان في ليبيا على الطراز الأمريكي لبناء القواعد الجوية وكانت مؤجرة من ليبيا وقت الحكم الملكي قبل ثورة الفاتح، وأثناء عام 1972 وصل أيضاً عدد مِنْ الطيارين الباكستانيينِ لدَعْم تدريب طياري الميراج الليبيينِ والمصريينِ في ليبيا بشكل مكثف وسري جدا و نظرا لان باكستان كانت تمتلك هذا النوع من الطائرات وقتها (كانت تملك وقتها باكستان حوالي سربين من الميراج 5) و الحق أن طياري باكستان كان عندهم خبره عاليه بالطيران و على دراية كبيره و محترفين.


Here is the link for the above text >??? ???? ??????? ???

so here is training , expertise etc

TARIQ

 

[500]

Can someone explain the source of the alleged PAF pilots superiority in the 6-day war?

If the pilots were superior,its important to understand if they were

- SuperMen
- Better trained
- Lucky
- Fitter
- Smarter
- Flying better planes
- Deploying better tactics

Please enlighten us with the basis for this so-called slaying of IAF.

- All Israeli aircrafts that were shot down by Pakistani pilots were on bombing missions, except one Mirage III.

- Couple encounters mean nothing. For example during the War on attrition in 1970 Israel shot down 4-5 Soviet fighters which fought for Egyptians without single loss. Does it mean that IAF is superior over Soviet? - Not of course.

- PAF detached its top pilots to this war, and they most probably were better than average Israeli or Arab pilots. Does it mean that average Pakistani pilot is better than average Israeli or Arab? - Not of course.

 

[Manticore]

^^ these pilots were merely average volanteers, not officially handpicked and dispatched by paf

paf also got its share of soviet kills [without any collateral loss]

both paf and iaf might share common objectives and stratedgies to maintain their survival , but i havent seen a single unbiased documantary regarding paf in its wars --