Israelis ask if it is TRUE in PAF's capability?

[VelocuR]

It is not important how much we shot downs, how many number is....

The key point is PAF, the best trained pilots, have the capability to shot down anyone especially Soviet Union jets/Afghanistan and 1998-PAF's high alerts on reactors. Not only this, Pakistan must maintain good relations with Israel in mutual cooperations at the same time dealing with Palestines, we have 'done' for the sakes of useless Arabs.

Moderator, please close this thread. Thanks everyone!

 

[PAFAce]

Not only this, Pakistan must maintain good relations with Israel in mutual cooperations at the same time dealing with Palestines, we have 'done' for the sakes of useless Arabs.

This sense of self-entitlement pisses me off to no end. We haven't done anything for anyone but ourselves, and Arabs are no more useless than you or I. The soldiers who went and fought with the Iraqis, Syrians and Jordanians did so because they believed it was their duty to do so, and the ones who didn't go felt it wasn't. So be it.

Secondly, Pakistan has absolutely no need for "good relations" or "mutual cooperation" with Israel. We are not their neighbors, we are no reliant on their economics, and Israel's policies and ideology are strongly against those of Pakistan and its people. I would even argue that you will find more support within Pakistan for bettering relations with India than with Israel.

 

[IceCold]

This sense of self-entitlement pisses me off to no end. We haven't done anything for anyone but ourselves, and Arabs are no more useless than you or I. The soldiers who went and fought with the Iraqis, Syrians and Jordanians did so because they believed it was their duty to do so, and the ones who didn't go felt it wasn't. So be it.

Secondly, Pakistan has absolutely no need for "good relations" or "mutual cooperation" with Israel. We are not their neighbors, we are no reliant on their economics, and Israel's policies and ideology are strongly against those of Pakistan and its people. I would even argue that you will find more support within Pakistan for bettering relations with India than with Israel.

Israel is a reality which is going no where. The sooner we accept this reality, the better we can normalize our relations with Israel. You may argue that Israels policies are against Pakistan but ever wondered why?? We are not their neighbors right but then why did we decided to go and fight a war which wasnt ours to begin with and which by the way resulted in pushing Israel into Indias corner. Also by not accepting Israel we havent really helped the Palestinie cause either. Had we develop diplomatic relations with Israel, maybe that way Pakistan could played a better role in negotiating a peace deal between the two sides. Bottom line Pakistan has enough troubles of her own, we don't need more.

 

[GOD OF WAR]

Israel is a reality which is going no where. The sooner we accept this reality, the better we can normalize our relations with Israel. You may argue that Israels policies are against Pakistan but ever wondered why?? We are not their neighbors right but then why did we decided to go and fight a war which wasnt ours to begin with and which by the way resulted in pushing Israel into Indias corner. Also by not accepting Israel we havent really helped the Palestinie cause either. Had we develop diplomatic relations with Israel, maybe that way Pakistan could played a better role in negotiating a peace deal between the two sides. Bottom line Pakistan has enough troubles of her own, we don't need more.

Please stop behaving like an imbecile and read rudimentary history!
do a google on how Israeli PM Ben Gurion has gone to describe and define what kind of foriegn policy Israel has adopted since its inception towards Pakistan.

Secondly, if you are a Muslim, then you must know that Islamic brotherhood has more importance than nationalism. It is simply beyond the realm of being a Pakistani or Syrian. it is the epitome of our faith as Muslims. And Pakistan has been founded keeping in mind these principals. By the rationale u are giving, no one will go to fight when InshaAllah Imam Mahdi becons Muslims to assemble. Let me tell you sir, thats also going to be in Jerusalam!

I wonder whats the next thing you will say, that Pakistan should keep out of Kashmir? and Afghanistan? diplomacy isnt that cheap nor so simplistic.

Thirdly, you're saying that accepting Israel will actually forward the cause of the Palistinian brothers? Are you living in Alice in wonderland? Do yo know how many UN agendas including that of the UNSc have been disregarded by the Israelis? Do you know that a huge group of Jews also openly state that the state of Israel is illegal according to the Torah? These are very basic facts, google them. Israel is a Zionist state and people who have done a little research about the two will be quick to acknowledge that 'Zionists' and 'Jews' are not tantamount.

Read some history, then some religion and then some international relations basics before passing such statements.

InshaAllah Pakistan will never accept the zionist state of Israel, as a matter of foreign policy, as a matter of prudence, as a matter of honour, and on pricipality of our faith

 

[GOD OF WAR]

Can someone explain the source of the alleged PAF pilots superiority in the 6-day war?

If the pilots were superior,its important to understand if they were

- SuperMen
- Better trained
- Lucky
- Fitter
- Smarter
- Flying better planes
- Deploying better tactics

Please enlighten us with the basis for this so-called slaying of IAF.

Let me give you a hint honey, and simplify the enimga thats clouding your brain... ALL THE ABOVE ARE THE RIGHT ANSWERS!!

You can choose which ever one that helps u sleep at night better

(Personally if u want my advice, just believe all of them)

 

[Desert Fox]

assalam alaikum

while i was going thru some sites i saw some comments from egyptian pilost to pak pilots and how they learned some tricks they used against israelies ( eventhough it didnot help the outcome of the war). One of the egyptiam member of the forum also talked about it.

قبل وصولِ المقاتلات الميراج الجديدة إلي ليبيا ، تم تجهيز قاعدة رئيسيه للصيانة و تدريب الأطقمِ وتخزينِ الأسلحةِ, و كَانَ المطار المختار لها في ليبيا هو القاعدة الكبيرة عقبة بن نافع (هذه القاعدة هي القاعدة الأمريكية هويلس سابق&#1575 بقيادة الطيار صالح عبد الله و قائد القوات الجوية الليبية وقتها كان الطيار صالح الفرجاني و هذه قاعدة كبيره و مجهزة بناها الأمريكان في ليبيا على الطراز الأمريكي لبناء القواعد الجوية وكانت مؤجرة من ليبيا وقت الحكم الملكي قبل ثورة الفاتح، وأثناء عام 1972 وصل أيضاً عدد مِنْ الطيارين الباكستانيينِ لدَعْم تدريب طياري الميراج الليبيينِ والمصريينِ في ليبيا بشكل مكثف وسري جدا و نظرا لان باكستان كانت تمتلك هذا النوع من الطائرات وقتها (كانت تملك وقتها باكستان حوالي سربين من الميراج 5) و الحق أن طياري باكستان كان عندهم خبره عاليه بالطيران و على دراية كبيره و محترفين.


Here is the link for the above text >??? ???? ??????? ???

so here is training , expertise etc

TARIQ

translation please?

 

[Desert Fox]

- All Israeli aircrafts that were shot down by Pakistani pilots were on bombing missions, except one Mirage III.

- Couple encounters mean nothing. For example during the War on attrition in 1970 Israel shot down 4-5 Soviet fighters which fought for Egyptians without single loss. Does it mean that IAF is superior over Soviet? - Not of course.

- PAF detached its top pilots to this war, and they most probably were better than average Israeli or Arab pilots. Does it mean that average Pakistani pilot is better than average Israeli or Arab? - Not of course.

The PAF pilots who shot down israeli aircraft were average PAF pilots and not handpicked! FYI our pilots participated in both the 1967 and 1973 arab israeli wars (basically more than 1 encounter with the IAF) and in both wars we shot down a total of 12-13 israeli aircraft without losing a single pilot or aircraft! PAF has also shot down a few Soviet pilots.

in 1971 due to embargoes from America our pilots in East Pakistan were using inferior aircraft while the indians had the latest the Soviets could offer them but yet our pilots put a stiff resistance and shot down a a good amount of enemy aircraft before being overwhelmed (it should be noted that the indians had the advantage over us in terms of quantity and quality). Back then the whole East Pakistan was an enemy territory for us and under very difficult circumstances we were able to gain air superiority over East Pakistan for a while until finally the war was over.

- Couple encounters mean nothing.

IMO a couple of encounter means a lot when you can shot down every aircraft of the opposing air force without even losing a single pilot and aircraft from your side!

 

[Archdemon]

Please stop behaving like an imbecile and read rudimentary history!
do a google on how Israeli PM Ben Gurion has gone to describe and define what kind of foriegn policy Israel has adopted since its inception towards Pakistan.

Secondly, if you are a Muslim, then you must know that Islamic brotherhood has more importance than nationalism. It is simply beyond the realm of being a Pakistani or Syrian. it is the epitome of our faith as Muslims. And Pakistan has been founded keeping in mind these principals. By the rationale u are giving, no one will go to fight when InshaAllah Imam Mahdi becons Muslims to assemble. Let me tell you sir, thats also going to be in Jerusalam!

I wonder whats the next thing you will say, that Pakistan should keep out of Kashmir? and Afghanistan? diplomacy isnt that cheap nor so simplistic.

Thirdly, you're saying that accepting Israel will actually forward the cause of the Palistinian brothers? Are you living in Alice in wonderland? Do yo know how many UN agendas including that of the UNSc have been disregarded by the Israelis? Do you know that a huge group of Jews also openly state that the state of Israel is illegal according to the Torah? These are very basic facts, google them. Israel is a Zionist state and people who have done a little research about the two will be quick to acknowledge that 'Zionists' and 'Jews' are not tantamount.

Read some history, then some religion and then some international relations basics before passing such statements.

InshaAllah Pakistan will never accept the zionist state of Israel, as a matter of foreign policy, as a matter of prudence, as a matter of honour, and on pricipality of our faith

By huge you mean minority? what is the percentage?

 

[GOD OF WAR]

By huge you mean minority? what is the percentage?

I'll answer your question when you tell me that you have studied the Torah in detail and not found the answer as yet.

By the way, your screen name is very befitting... "Arch Demon" a representative of Israel

 

[RazPaK]

My father trained Palestinian,Iraqi, Saudi, and Syrian air force pilots in Pakistan back in the day. He's got a ton of funny stories too lol.

 

[rockstarIN]

^^ these pilots were merely average volanteers, not officially handpicked and dispatched by paf

-

From the posts from Santro & Irfan Baluch, can understand that those pilots were NOT merely average volanteers, but well trained guys.

 

[500]

The PAF pilots who shot down israeli aircraft were average PAF pilots and not handpicked!

I doubt that pilots sent thousands miles away were average. Anyway I just said that even if they were better it means nothing about average.

FYI our pilots participated in both the 1967 and 1973 arab israeli wars (basically more than 1 encounter with the IAF) and in both wars we shot down a total of 12-13 israeli aircraft without losing a single pilot or aircraft! PAF has also shot down a few Soviet pilots.

PAF shot down 2-3 bombers in 1967 war (1 is disputed because Jordanians claim to themselves) and 1 Mirage fighter in 1973-74 war, thats 3-4 total.

IAF shot down 4-5 Soviet fighters in 1970 and 5 RAF fighters in 1949 without a single loss.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

translation please?

assalam alaikum

It is the squadaran leader of the egpyt airforce describes that in 1972 paf pilost reached in libyia and they began traing the egyptians and libians pilots secretly since pakistan had 2 sqdrn of them (mirage 5) The bold part he gives his opinion about the paf pilots i m not a professional translater but i will translate the whole sentence (bold part),
و الحق أن طياري باكستان كان عندهم خبره عاليه بالطيران و على دراية كبيره و محترفين.

" To tell the truth , pak pilots had very high (good) experience in aviation, very knowledgeable (about their job) , and professionals"

It is a long interview this is the part that relate to us.

Regargs

TARIQ

 

[Manticore]

From the posts from Santro & Irfan Baluch, can understand that those pilots were NOT merely average volanteers, but well trained guys.

it shows the superior training that even our average pilot gets----

deputation to arab countries is a routine feature and hundreds of paf pilots are present in arab countries at any given instant , not merely few pilots

pak was not at war e isreal-- pak had its interest with its border[india] -- so there were no orders by the paf top brass -- these were average batch of volanteers

The MiG-19 was the hardest aircraft of the three-[mig 17/19/21] to fly.

Salute!

If you are not politically-incorrect, do not read the rest of this post.
*****************

In the very early years of the Viper, we trained all the EPG folks, plus the IAF, Pakistani and Egyptian folks. Also handled USAF National Guard and Reserve units.

I flew with Pakistani folks during my pilot training back in 1965-65. 16-17 years or so later, I flew with accomplished Pakistani fighter pilots that formed the core of their Viper force.

The original cast at Hill will all tell you (ALL) that the Pakistani folks were more aggressive than the IAF folks we had. Same-oh versus the Egyptian folks.

Jan Bei's question is a great one!

It may not be true today, but except for one of the original Pakistani Viper cadre, all had been instructors all over the mideast. They kept reminding us that they were Muslims, but not Arabs. My own student had taught various Arab folks and had great war stories. For example, when the Emir's grandson screwed up and claimed it was Allah's will, he threw the bullshit flag and told the yute, "OK, then we'll let the plane crash!".

I can't believe that the Pakistani spirit and elan and professionalism has deterioated all that much. But having no current intell from anyone, I can't make an unequivocal statement.

All I know is that I would lead or follow any of the ones we had at Hill in that cadre.

If anyone else here has ever flown with a Pakistani Viper pilot in an actual Viper, please chime in or continue to speculate.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.


About half of the Viper cadre at Hill had two or three combat tours in 'nam. One of my students had a Mig kill. One of my IAF students had one or more mig kills and I have a neat photo from his camera here in the war room.

One of my IAF students was on the Iraqi nuke raid, then died on the Columbia.

I never saw a Mig over 'nam. The Double Ugly folks did their job and we simply blew up stuff dodged SAM's and AAA and scooted home.

I have many more combat hours than the IAF folks from Yom Kippur or the 67 blitz. Take that to the bank. I flew with them and we talked.

The EPG folks were indistinguishable from the USAF for the most part, and in some arenas were better than we were, particularly in radar intercepts.

The IAF folks and the Pakistani folks were so close, that except for the uniforms, you couldn't tell who you were hasslin' with.

We should all bear in mind that only the best folks were attending the upgrade courses at Hill back in the early 80's. So we did not get a chance to see the run-of-the-mill pilots from the EPG, IAF or Pakistan. We did get a chance to see the average folks from the USAF Reserve and Guard.

My checkout group was comprised of two Danes, three Norwegians and five USAF troops (3 Double Ugly guys and two SLUF drivers). We studied hard, planned and flew together and you couldn't tell where anyone came from.

************

I once again beg all to leave politics out of these forums. Or religion. Or ethnic origin.

The people here that have flown in real jets and in real combat share a bond that most of you shall never understand. And that includes some of us who were "enemies".

We all did our duty, and when all was said and done, we went home and harbored no personal animosity.

that's all I gonna say....

Gums

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=85382&highlight=pakistan

 

[rockstarIN]

^^ But if we sent our pilots to, suppose Russia for training, or if any secret training, will be our best lot.

I think all AF will do the same..