Israelis ask if it is TRUE in PAF's capability?

[Last Hope]

Bring that thing in Pakistan..
Its sad no one cares about it.

A legendery aircraft of the time with legendery role!

The pilot, Flt Lt Saif-ul-Azam had flown this for RJAF.
Saif, had a dream in which he shot an Israeli Mirage. After telling his friends, instead of passing it as a joke, they were proud of him and said that he will.
From a recording, after he shot down the Mirage, His number 2 Lt Ihsan of RJAF said "Leader, you have finally won the bet, its a mirage"

This is all that i know and thought would be great to post it here!

 

[hataf]

This should be in Pakistan. Iraqi AF Hunter aircraft piloted by PAF Saif-ul-Azam - 1967 Arab-Israel war. 2 kills (Mirage-III, Vatour Bomber).

Bring that thing in Pakistan..
Its sad no one cares about it.

legends lives in heart of their followers not in show cases . . . .

My theory . . . . . .

 

[Mughal-Prince]

A legendery aircraft of the time with legendery role!

The pilot, Flt Lt Saif-ul-Azam had flown this for RJAF.
Saif, had a dream in which he shot an Israeli Mirage. After telling his friends, instead of passing it as a joke, they were proud of him and said that he will.
From a recording, after he shot down the Mirage, His number 2 Lt Ihsan of RJAF said "Leader, you have finally won the bet, its a mirage"

This is all that i know and thought would be great to post it here!

Yeh Ghazi yeh teray purisrar bunday
Jinhain tu nay bukhsha hai zauq-e-khudai

Dou neem un ki thookar say sehra-o-dariya
Simat ker pahar un ki haibat say rai ...

 

[Mughal-Prince]

legends lives in heart of their followers not in show cases . . . .

My theory . . . . . .

But sir I think we must show some respect symbolically as well ... and I think if PAF won't do any thing in this regard then we may do something to raise some fund to bring it to Pakistan ...

 

[Safriz]

Pakistan did not send any jets anywhere. We had pilots deputed with EAF, RJAF and Syrian AF and they got involved in some mixes and had the better of their Israeli counterparts. This does not mean that PAF won the war and folks should not necessarily boast about this all the time. It is in the past and now its just used to stick our thumbs in other people's faces. Not sure if Satter Alvi or M. Latif would be up this task themselves so not sure why we get all riled up over this?

On the contrary its ok to be proud of your past and boast about it...Thats something called "National Pride" which we seriously lack.

 

[PAFAce]

Both the 1973 and the 1967 Arab-Israeli wars took place two years after Indo-Pak wars. One possible reason for the success of our pilots could well be the combat experience gained against a foe that outnumbered them. King Hussain of Jordan, who himself was a Pilot in the RJAF, even awarded PAF pilot Saif-ul-Islam with a Sword of Honor for his airmanship.

Also, indeed, in 1967 the IDF, particularly the Air Force, absolutely dominated their rivals. In 1973, by not wandering too far off the Suez-Canal and, therefore, being covered by their Anti-Aircraft umbrella, the Egyptian Army fared much better, though the Syrian Army was once again handled quite comfortably. Egypt gained back control of the Suez Canal after the war, and later, thanks to Anwar Sadat's acceptance of and peace-deal with Israel, they gained back the entire Sinai Desert. Therefore, when you put things in perspective, our volunteer pilots and soldiers put themselves in harms way, only to see these countries make peace-deals and accept Israel's regional dominance.

 

[Super Falcon]

Sir ji Israel will never seek peace as ALMIGHTY ALLAH said that never ever expect yahuda's to become your friend if you do than be ready to be attacked from behind they are nemies of ISLAM and all religions

 

[EjazR]

Just a quick point, Egyptian and Syrian aircrafts were all soviet sourced pre 1970s

So IF the story is true (a forum is not a credible source), then it would be only Jordanian planes which PAF pilots could have flown. Unless PAF pilots could magically start flyind soviet planes after doing all their training on American sourced ones.

What you need is declassified documents or interviews with former pilots or people in Jordan, Israel e.t.c. who concur.

 

[rockstarIN]

=PAFAce;1362190]Both the 1973 and the 1967 Arab-Israeli wars took place two years after Indo-Pak wars. One possible reason for the success of our pilots could well be the combat experience gained against a foe that outnumbered them. King Hussain of Jordan, who himself was a Pilot in the RJAF, even awarded PAF pilot Saif-ul-Islam with a Sword of Honor for his airmanship.

With respect to the PAF professionalism, I have few doubts. I heard somewhere that PAF flew Mig-21 against IsAF and gained victories. So far I heard from various sources and from the professional air warriors from this forum, Mig-21 is very hard to fly for a non-experienced (Mig) pilot and maneuver it against any other aircrafts, though it is very potent in that era. Did they ever fly Migs before that?

Rgds

 

[Manticore]

i dont remember, but it was one of our militery proffessionals here, a year back,who told that after 71, a lot of red tapes were lost in the process of transport to pakistan---- IF MY MEMORY SERVES RIGHT


@above-- ive posted a video under dogfights thread, in which the isreali pilot was able to master the defected iraqi mig21 in 3 days -- i dont reckon its that difficult

 

[Aslan]

i dont remember, but it was one of our militery proffessionals here, a year back,who told that after 71, a lot of red tapes were lost in the process of transport to pakistan---- IF MY MEMORY SERVES RIGHT


@above-- ive posted a video under dogfights thread, in which the isreali pilot was able to master the defected iraqi mig21 in 3 days -- i dont reckon its that difficult

And also Pakistan was flying the F-6's already during the 71 war, and going by the tech that was available in those days, I dont think that there was alot to learn in those planes during the 70's. Its just the indian attitude that is prevailing here, they just want to debunk any thing that is Pakistani, even if it is recoded in history.

 

[silent hill]

Just a quick point, Egyptian and Syrian aircrafts were all soviet sourced pre 1970s

So IF the story is true (a forum is not a credible source), then it would be only Jordanian planes which PAF pilots could have flown. Unless PAF pilots could magically start flyind soviet planes after doing all their training on American sourced ones.

What you need is declassified documents or interviews with former pilots or people in Jordan, Israel e.t.c. who concur.

respected, but, who the fucck gives what bharti says its true or false!!!, is it necessary???

 

[rockstarIN]

And also Pakistan was flying the F-6's already during the 71 war, and going by the tech that was available in those days, I dont think that there was alot to learn in those planes during the 70's. Its just the indian attitude that is prevailing here, they just want to debunk any thing that is Pakistani, even if it is recoded in history.

Boss..no, its not to debunk a Pakistani victory, it is just a doubt.

Migs really need good flying hours to master it specially Mig-21.(for e.g most of the Indian Mig-21 crashes due to either pilot error or engine problem, coz its a Mach 2, powerful jet). There is no fly by wire system in 70s. So you need to manually really fly those stuff. Its been explained by the professionals here, not my words.

F-6 is a copy of Mig-19 farmer, it is far less powerful than Mig-21s

Rgds,

 

[Manticore]

Boss..no, its not to debunk a Pakistani victory, it is just a doubt.

Migs really need good flying hours to master it specially Mig-21.(for e.g most of the Indian Mig-21 crashes due to either pilot error or engine problem, coz its a Mach 2, powerful jet). There is no fly by wire system in 70s. So you need to manually really fly those stuff. Its been explained by the professionals here, not my words.

F-6 is a copy of Mig-19 farmer, it is far less powerful than Mig-21s

Rgds,

somethings will never be publically validated to ease your mind

mig19 was a very powerful double engined fighter-- and it was one of its very strong points as an interceptor ---Rate of climb: +180 m/s

--The MiG-19PM by comparison...was a superior plane in the interceptor role...FAR superior in that role than the MiG-21F-13s of the era. That was the reason China wanted these airplanes.

The MiG-19 was the hardest aircraft of the three-[mig 17/19/21] to fly.

-- you are continously underestimating the quality of our pilots , by gaudging against mig21 track record in your country


First 2 F-6 arrived at Sargodha Airbase from the Chinese airfield at Hotian on 20 December 1965, aircraft were equipped with VHF radios and Soviet style instruments/equipment
One InAF author had remarked :
"had PAF got 20 squadrons of F-6 alone without the B-57s, F-104s, Mirages and Sabers, the InAF would had got a very tough time "

When Americans offered the F-5E to Pakistan , PAF simply rejected it and claimed that its F-6s were equal ( a bit of exaggeration by PAF to confirm its bid for the latest F-16A) and to prove its point it also offered a fly off. The Americans declined!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I think Israel should seek peace with its neighbours then it does not have to worry about stuff

being the most powerful regional power with the unqualified support of the West especially America, why would its obnoxious policy makers would seek peace? such things are for the weak.

its really hard to be good & humane when one has such a status & power like Israel. if you ever read about the Zionists greater Israel ideology then you will note that it extrends from banks of red sea to as far as vicinities of Mecca & Madina.
this is why you constantly see the country expanding since 1948. check its map then and now.. All Western lectures on democracy, fairness, humanity & their lamenting of third world countries for their dismal record of scocial justice etc takes a back seat when it comes to Israeli treatment of Palestinians and its covert and overt operations on the countries arround it.. sorry got carried away and getting off topic.. but your one liner was very loaded if you knwo what I mean.

back to the topic

On 26 April 1974, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi on deputation to No. 67 Squadron, Syrian Air Force (SAF) was flying a SAF MiG-21FL (serial no. 1863) out of Dumayr Air Base, Syria in a two-ship formation with a fellow PAF pilot and the Flight Leader, Sqn. Ldr. Arif Manzoor. The Ground Controller, also a PAF officer, Sqn. Ldr. Salim Metla, vectored the two PAF pilots to a formation of 2 Israeli Air Force Mirage IIICJs and 2 F-4 Phantoms that had intruded into Syrian airspace over the Golan Heights. In the engagement that took place at 1532 hours, Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi shot down an Israeli Mirage IIICJ using his MiG-21's R(K)-13 air-to-air missile. The pilot of the downed Israeli Mirage was Capt. M. Lutz of No. 5 Air Wing, who ejected. The remaining Israeli fighters aborted the mission.


Flight Lieutenant Alvi

Check the following extract and the link for more

Breaking off to the right after downing the Mirage, Saif spotted a Vautour coming head-on, about 2,000 feet below. Without batting an eyelid, Saif inverted his aircraft and pulled through for a 'split-S.' The maneuver can go awry if there is insufficient clearance from the ground, but Saif pulled back on the control stick to the point of almost blacking out. When he leveled off, he found himself behind the Vautour, charging in with a very high rate of closure despite the speed brakes opened and throttle pulled back to idle. The distance was now only 200 feet, too close for the safety of his own aircraft were the much larger Vautour to explode like his previous victim. Deciding not to miss the chance, Saif opened fire and after three bursts of his cannon, saw parts of the aircraft fly off. His own aircraft juddered as if hit by something; Saif had to look around to be sure he was not being shot at.