Israel helped India turn around Kargil war

[Iggy]

Mine too...

Jew town in my home town !

Not mine i only work here ...

 

[RobbieS]

@Sieko and Beckham-You guys are lucky you live in Cochin (or Ernakulam). Its such a beautiful and multicultural place. Kerala I believe is a mini India in itself.

 

[Peace Sells no one buying]

What does India get for having international ties and strategic partnership with Israel? The list is almost too long . . .

Israel is surrounded by enemies, and somehow has not been wiped off the map yet. India is facing similar issues, and India has a lot to learn about gaining intel / spies in enemy nations. This is one thing Israel is teaching.

Israel gets all the tech it needs from America because many members of the American government are faithful to Israel -- many even hold dual citizenship with Israel. In effect, this is a back-door into the USA without having to pay the membership fees. (How does Israel get the tech? Many people in America also work for Israel, some as spies (like how the Nuke plans allegedly were stolen and given to Israel from USA), some are powerful lobbists, and some straight up just share the data.) Israel is more than willing to share tech with India this way, as long as India keeps paying what India pays.

Ties with Israel bring India closer to the West, the West that did not previously support India. Many of America's 'enemies' do not openly support Israel, or worse, actively complain of Israel. (Ven, Iran, etc) By being friends with Israel, India decidedly puts itself on the same team as 'America'. This may not be a good thing in the long term, but right now it's still better to be friends with the friends of America than not.

Israel has a lot of expertize that India lacks. While India continues to make their own tech (seen from anything from uav's to rockets), Israel can greatly advise and improve in short order. Israel has faced a lot of internal terrorism, and they have some of the most highly trained security staff in the world. India could use better internal security. (After all, how many Indian pol's have been killed? Just food for thought . . . )

Being friends with Israel helps sway the minds of the most mindless, uneducated people on the planet -- large voting blocks in democratic nations. (Outside of India) Israel controls the media in many of these nations (not a conspiracy, actually something they are proud of), like Canada, UK, USA, Australia, etc. (Just look at how powerful the ADL is . . . they get special meetings with the Pope, and they aren't even Catholics) Being friends with Israel makes India (despite being brown skinned and largely, non-Christian/Jewish) not in the same category of other nations / nationalities. This is a big deal -- especially for the perception of India in the world, and the perception of ethnic Indians all over the world. (regardless of religion) For example, one of the newest rising stars in the American media is Aziz Ansari -- an American born from Muslim Indian parents. He is on a TV show, has been in a few movies, and has signed to star in two movies on his own. He is aided by the fact that he always claims an Indian heritage (not Muslim) and works with a lot of Jews -- Jews who know that India is now becoming a big ally of Israel. Thus, the friendship of the two states even improves the lot of the NRI's in other nations that are friendly to Israel.

Of course . . . Israel does not help others without having something saved for themselves. They never do. I used to worry about the price India would have to pay for this partnership . . . but in the worst case, it's no different than what India has had to endure before. India has fought in International wars before, if Israel is ever attacked in a large scale assult, India will have to come to Israel's aid (as a test of loyalty that India will not be able to refuse). This does not mean fighting the nations Israel is attacked by from India either, this means splitting up the military (already spread too thin on many borders) to move many people, equipment and expensive hardware to fight from Israel as well. (This weakening India's own defenses from common enemies)

This, no doubt, puts a strain on the relationship that India is developing with Iran. Iran hates Israel. Israel hates Iran. The USA hates Iran, and loves Israel. India needs to cultivate good ties with Israel and USA in order to stay on pace with China/Pak. Russia hates Israel, and has no love lost over USA. Iran and Russia are longstanding partners with India (from ancient times). It's difficult.

Israel also gains another ally, and they have too few as it is; just USA, Canada, UK and by proxy, Aus and some of the more Jew controlled EU nations.

 

[Peace Sells no one buying]

As for the Kargil war . . . speculation exists that suggest that Israel helped India with Intel (enemy troop movements, spyware, sat images, etc), and with some lazer guided weapon systems. These systems were used in A-G sorties by ground attack planes to neutralize artilery that could not have been dealt with with just India's own artillery. It was necessary to remove the enemy from these vantage points in order to allow Indian commando's a fighting chance to reach their objectives without reaching God first.

I do not know how accurate these assertations are, though, so it is just speculation.

 

[RobbieS]

India has fought in International wars before, if Israel is ever attacked in a large scale assult, India will have to come to Israel's aid (as a test of loyalty that India will not be able to refuse). This does not mean fighting the nations Israel is attacked by from India either, this means splitting up the military (already spread too think on many borders) to move many people, equipment and expensive hardware to fight from Israel as well. (This weakening India's own defenses from common enemies)

Nice article but you stretched it too far there. Your lack of research is evident. Realistically speaking, India would never go to war on the side of Israel or of the US for that matter. The reason can be described in two words - Muslim sentiments. These two words govern much of domestic Indian politics and foreign relations.

Vote bank politics prevents Indian statesmen to take a strong pro-Israeli stance. Muslims constitute major vote banks of many Indian parties and none of them wants to spoil their chances in the next elections. Precisely the reason Israel wasn't allowed to open a consulate in Delhi for so long (may be it still doesn't have one).

Similarly India doesn't want to upset its cordial relations with Iran and Arabs (two faced I might say as they are pretty happy to be bedfellows with the Americans), its two major source of oil and natural gas.

And the above two are the reason why no Israeli head of state ever visited India nor did an Indian one visit Israel.

 

[RobbieS]

India has fought in International wars before

Care to elaborate? Which international wars has India been a part of? You don't mean the WWs, do you?

 

[Peace Sells no one buying]

India has fought in International wars before

Care to elaborate? Which international wars has India been a part of? You don't mean the WWs, do you?

I do mean the WW's, though, India was not India back then. So you may feel free to strike this example from the record. I think a partnership with the West, that will be consumated by deeper strategic ties with Israel, may end up making India more indebted towards fighting wars not their own. This is *obviously* the intention of USA/Israel in regards to India.

In the WW's, the big 'allies' used Aus and Canadian troops as fodder -- sent them on most dangerous missions, etc. Israel and USA want to have a new nation with a powerful army to fill the same role. It's naked self preservation. It's a serious risk for India to ally so closely with these types of nations. (With friends like these . . . who needs enemies?)

USA dearly needs a buffer state to occupy China's efforts once China comes rinning on USA's doorbell and asking for the money USA owes. Israel is always on the look out for other people to do the dirty work for them.

India, since independence, has done much work for the UN in peace keeping. This is not the same thing as fighting in a war. I think the point I was trying to make was lost in my post -- which was underfocused and a bit rambling.

India has a lot to gain from relationship with Israel. India also has a lot to lose as well. (Specifically, India may feel pressured by 'new friends' to fight wars not their own; similar to how Indians fought in previous WW's.)

 

[Windjammer]

when your nation wakes up and comes to reality and accept the existance of israel....
when people like you wake up and see that INDIA is not the INDIA of 1947 anymore and accept that INDIA is developing and there is nothing you can do to stop it,,,,,,,then you might be able to comprehend the reality of the world.....

Suppose that's all very energizing and contributes to the feel good factor, however there are certain realities and factors which only points to the merits of self denial. For example, i take pride in my country being a nuclear power and despite this fact being a sticky thorn in many a flesh, there is no stopping it, however if it has to turn to a minute state for it's own security, then there is no rejoice in chest thumping. !!!!

 

[Peace Sells no one buying]

Nice article but you stretched it too far there. Your lack of research is evident...

Thank you for this thoughtful reply. I agree with you on all counts: I did not do much research (after all, this is just my opinion), and secondly, your statements regarding India's relationships is also correct. (Internal relationships with minority groups, and relationships with middle east)

I think the premises of my original statement may yet be valid. Ultimately, I think Israel needs India more than vice versa (in the long run). Worse still is that fact that right now Israeli partnership may not appear as bad as it really is. Moreover, getting so deep with USA/UK/Israel stunts India's own growth and development.

BRIC is really the way to go, if people could just get over border issues.

 

[Peace Sells no one buying]

...however there are certain realities and factors which only points to the merits of self denial...

Ignorance is bliss, then? Self-denial could be useful, though I think a more progressive stance and openess of new information advances thought. After all, we don't think that the sun revolves around the earth anymore. We don't consider south of spain to be arab lands anymore. We don't consider wooden ships with cannons to be top of the line anymore. We don't consider women to be property, right?

Lines on a map are redrawn many times over the ages. What should remain true is the goodness of people. Unfortunately, what appears to be more true is that bad people exist in every nation.

 

[RobbieS]

Thank you for this thoughtful reply. I agree with you on all counts: I did not do much research (after all, this is just my opinion), and secondly, your statements regarding India's relationships is also correct. (Internal relationships with minority groups, and relationships with middle east)

I think the premises of my original statement may yet be valid. Ultimately, I think Israel needs India more than vice versa (in the long run). Worse still is that fact that right now Israeli partnership may not appear as bad as it really is. Moreover, getting so deep with USA/UK/Israel stunts India's own growth and development.

BRIC is really the way to go, if people could just get over border issues.

I apologize if my words were too harsh. I realize you are new to the forum. A few further questions-

Worse still is that fact that right now Israeli partnership may not appear as bad as it really is

What does that mean exactly?

Moreover, getting so deep with USA/UK/Israel stunts India's own growth and development.

How is that? You mean India would fail to develop its own industry if it continues to buy from these countries? Surely ToT and co-development models can take care of that. The same way they have done with Russian equipment.

BRIC is really the way to go, if people could just get over border issues
Hit the nail on the head there.

 

[DavyJones]

@ Peace sells - Peace is boring for some.. what will the generals do ?

 

[RobbieS]

I do mean the WW's, though, India was not India back then. So you may feel free to strike this example from the record. I think a partnership with the West, that will be consumated by deeper strategic ties with Israel, may end up making India more indebted towards fighting wars not their own. This is *obviously* the intention of USA/Israel in regards to India.

In the WW's, the big 'allies' used Aus and Canadian troops as fodder -- sent them on most dangerous missions, etc. Israel and USA want to have a new nation with a powerful army to fill the same role. It's naked self preservation. It's a serious risk for India to ally so closely with these types of nations. (With friends like these . . . who needs enemies?)

USA dearly needs a buffer state to occupy China's efforts once China comes rinning on USA's doorbell and asking for the money USA owes. Israel is always on the look out for other people to do the dirty work for them.

India, since independence, has done much work for the UN in peace keeping. This is not the same thing as fighting in a war. I think the point I was trying to make was lost in my post -- which was underfocused and a bit rambling.

India has a lot to gain from relationship with Israel. India also has a lot to lose as well. (Specifically, India may feel pressured by 'new friends' to fight wars not their own; similar to how Indians fought in previous WW's.)

What you say seems plausible, but tell you what- India and Indians in general are way too smarter in international relations than people give them credit for. May be you'd say I am biased but care to read the following-

If you would study India's foreign policy after independence, you'd find a pretty good case study of realpolitik. We were friends with both the West and the Soviets right uptil 71. Case in point, the initial atomic reactors, aircraft carriers, the green revolution and the joint ops with CIA. After 71' things tilted in favor of the Ruskies but India was still able to maintain a neutral stance on most issues owing to its leadership of the NAM movement (a pretty sham organization I'd say).

As the cold war ended, India found its erstwhile ally in shambles and an economy that needed an injection of money. Enter improved relations with the West again. What followed was a rush of western companies to set up shop in India, leading to improved bilateral ties and the biggest prize of them all-the Nuclear Deal. Meanwhile the Flankers and the Gorshkovs get the Ruskies defence industries rolling.

As a future scenario I don't think India would commit itself to a situation where it is forced to help out either Israel or the West. Reasons being the exact ones as I quoted in my first post. Case in point -Afghanistan. Both India and the West know it can play a much larger role in Afghanistan, militarily and economically. But India doesn't.

As to China and being used as a counterweight against it by the US. India knows that right now they are are no match with the Chinese, militarily or economically. They had a 10 year head start on us. And both countries realize there's too much to lose in a war with each other over barren cold deserts and frozen peaks, border troubles and holy men aside. In the meanwhile, if US thinks it can prop India up against China, they are welcome to offer the Falcons and the Hornets. What India buys and how much of it will decide the price we are willing to pay eventually. And going by history, India can strike a pretty good balance.

Phew, that was my longest post on this forum!

 

[Windjammer]

Ignorance is bliss, then? Self-denial could be useful, though I think a more progressive stance and openess of new information advances thought. After all, we don't think that the sun revolves around the earth anymore. We don't consider south of spain to be arab lands anymore. We don't consider wooden ships with cannons to be top of the line anymore. We don't consider women to be property, right?

Lines on a map are redrawn many times over the ages. What should remain true is the goodness of people. Unfortunately, what appears to be more true is that bad people exist in every nation.

In my part of the world, a saying roughly translated reads,
First drops of rain are always absorbed by the dry thirsty earthen,
A little saturation and the same dry soil begins to work wonders.
However, after the soil has done it's trick and before you enjoy the fruits of loom, some creature steals it from under your nose and burns the rest down, i think your thinking prospective may change.
Alias Peace but not peace at any price.

 

[Peace Sells no one buying]

I apologize if my words were too harsh..

No worries, friend. You were not harsh. You were simply trying to get me to explain my ideas better.

Worse still is that fact that right now Israeli partnership may not appear as bad as it really is

What does that mean exactly?

There are hidden costs to friendship with Israel. One only needs to look critically at the United States or the United Kingdom. Their international policy is so seeped in pro-Israeli rhetoric and action that the interests of their own respective nations are sometimes secondary towards Israeli appeasment. After all, a progressive society that had infrastructure, relative stability, gender equality and many universities and scientists that was led by a non-religious fanatic needed to be bombed back to the stone age and occupied because they challenged for regional dominance and did not love Israel. (Iraq) How many Israeli army troops have died in Iraq vs. how many Americans or British? Zero. Which of those three nations is the most immediately benefitting from no Iraq? Only Israel. (After all, USA used to work WITH Iraq back in the day)

Aside from military engagements, Israel is dedicated to only itself. It often has used the guise of friendship to conduct operations within friendly nations. Furthermore, not all Intel is shared equally. Sharon was in London the day of the 7/7/07 bombings (so was I, btw). His security detail cancelled meetings because they were tipped off. Israel did not go so far to share the information with British law enforcement or intelligence ... and the rest is history. On 9/11 there was a group of Israeli 'art students' who were seen videotaping the WTC being hit by planes. They had set up a camera and were ready for it. If they knew something was happening, why didn't they inform the FBI/CIA/NORAD? Are we to believe that they just happened to video tape NY buildings every morning? Not likely.

Indian security actually arrested some people dressed up as Muslims who were attempting to bomb a domestic Indian flight (many years ago). It was later found out that they were Israeli agents posing as Muslims in order to incite a climate of anti-Islam in India. (don't have the link for this, but this was a pretty big deal on the internet a number of years ago)

Not only is Israel putting operatives in other nations (friendly ones), running operations in friendly nations, and not sharing information with friendly nations (on attacks on those nations) -- but they also spy on friendly nations. (see: nuclear secrets stolen from USA -- and Israel even imprisoned the Israeli who 'outed' Israel's secret nuclear programs: Vanunu) I'm sure Israel would love to spy on India too -- see India's strengths, weaknesses, and keep all of that information secretly. They've already done this to the USA, UK, Canada.

Moreover, getting so deep with USA/UK/Israel stunts India's own growth and development.

How is that? You mean India would fail to develop its own industry if it continues to buy from these countries? Surely ToT and co-development models can take care of that. The same way they have done with Russian equipment.

What I mean is that those 'bigger' nations will try to exploit India for their gain primarily. I think India has a great chance to learn from those nations (ToT, etc); but a strategic partnership develops into stronger bonds. Canada, the ultimate ally of the USA, is a good example. The two were not always in bed with one another -- but now it's so bad that Canada's entire economy is tied with that of the USA. If the USA does poorly, so does Canada. The US is really in a bad place right now, they'd love to exploit India under the guise of partnership. (Israel/USA is a package deal -- you get one you get the other) This statement goes beyond security/military issues.

BRIC is really the way to go, if people could just get over border issues
Hit the nail on the head there.