Israel helped India turn around Kargil war

[salman nedian]

First of all you have to have minorities to do any killing. You got rid of them. Good for you actually.

Yes, none of the minorities are safe in India. That is why they hold high posts in India. I can't say the same about the countries which claim that they are doing a yeoman's service to their practically no existent minorities!!

Guess what?

An Italian Christian domiciled in India is the boss woman. Many Moslems have been Presidents and now a Vice President, a Sikh is the PM, a Sikh was the Chief of the Army, a Sikh runs Indian economy, a Jew organised the defeat of Pakistan in 1971 and yet they are all not safe!!

Funny, what?

They hold the reins of power and yet you feel they are not safe!

Guess, what even I do not feel I am not safe and I can't say I am the majority!!

It is only you who feels that you are not safe!!

With a mindset as yours, you will not be safe even in Heaven!

you have to say this. I can understand.

 

[Vinod2070]

Vinod,
At least adopt a single criteria what did the Congress want? The decision of States based on population or Rulers? India adopted what was suitable to them. You considered population in Hyderabad and in Kashmir you considered “Raja”. Hypocrisy and Land grabbing is the history of India.

Sorry Neo but I can’t stop my self on such pathetic posts.

None of the two countries can claim to have a higher moral ground.

Both countries claimed all the three states you mentioned, so I guess your post is equally pathetic.

Ultimately India could get it's way but it was not for the want of Pakistan trying it's best to get all three. Pakistan also adopted different criteria for the three states, so not sure what is your point here.

I can just consider you a sore loser!

 

[Vinod2070]

Objectivity does not seem to be a strong point with some here. If you look at everything with a tinted glass, you can't hope to see the real shades of reality.

 

[Vinod2070]

I don know what you have been reading about swaping and and the option given to Quaid-I-Azam. He was never given this option and I have read in many book and heard from various people that in fact he wanted to use Jundagh as a chip which he can trade to get Kashmir. The fact is if the trade was offered he would of accepted it.

I read in a very objective and neutral book some years back that Moutbatten offered this option to Mr. Jinnah. I don't have a link as it was a hard copy but I guess some people here would be familiar with this and should be able to collaborate.

Mr. Jinnah supposedly rejected it as he felt that Kashmir had to come to Pakistan as it had no choice and he hoped to get Hyderabad and Junagarh too, especially Hyderabad.

 

[salman nedian]

None of the two countries can claim to have a higher moral ground.

Both countries claimed all the three states you mentioned, so I guess your post is equally pathetic.

Ultimately India could get it's way but it was not for the want of Pakistan trying it's best to get all three. Pakistan also adopted different criteria for the three states, so not sure what is your point here.

I can just consider you a sore loser!

My point is quite clear India captured Kashmir by saying that Maharaja has acceded to India and captured Hyderabad by saying that population is Hindu. Pakistan was not in the position then to fight with India so what different criteria Pakistan adopted?

 

[mujahideen]

I read in a very objective and neutral book some years back that Moutbatten offered this option to Mr. Jinnah. I don't have a link as it was a hard copy but I guess some people here would be familiar with this and should be able to collaborate.

Mr. Jinnah supposedly rejected it as he felt that Kashmir had to come to Pakistan as it had no choice and he hoped to get Hyderabad and Junagarh too, especially Hyderabad.

Mountbatten was an anti-Pakistan person. Their is no one on Earth who can say that they are truly neutral because everyone has opinions. Even though Mountbatten was for the establishment of Pakistan he went against it when Quaid-I-Azam decided to become the Governor General of Pakistan. He wanted to be the Governor General of both domains. This is the main reason Pakistan faced many problems at the time of its birth, it was all because of Mountbatten that Pakistan was suppose to be strangled at birth but we defied the odds and came out stronger.

 

[BATMAN]

Its hardly a surprise, Israel helped or atleast offered to help India during '65 and '71 war without having official diplomatic ties with New Delhi. Our support for Palestinians drove India and Israel closer as India played the "Look, muslims hate us too" card very well and finally secured Israel as ally in the nineties.
Rest is open book.

Same card won them the most favored nation of west after 9/11, that’s why I always suspect if Indians collaborated in 9/11 as a revenge for usual rebutting of IAF in Kargil sector during 1999.

Does this also meant that Pakistan rebut the collaborative IAFs instead one IAF.

Now technically, we will not be wrong if we count Israel's defence spending in Indian defence budget?

 

[IndiDesi]

One should look at history to get to the conclusion as to why Israel helped india or India leaned towards Israel.I think everything leads to the OIC.

Remember India had voted against Israel in almost all of the UN Conventions and supported the OIC and also supported Palestine more vocally(When Yasseer Arafat was the PLO Chief).What did India get..no recognition by OIC and the OIC supported Pakistan at all the times(which is natural since Pakistan is officially an Islamic republic).The point is OIC pushed for resolutions agains Israel in the UN conventions and Pakistan is a major player in the OIC which I think led Israel to have not-so positive opinion on Pak eventhough Pakistan has never openly threatened Israel(fat chance).

So what we have is two countries ,one not taken into consideration even after pushing har and the other already hated by OIC.I think this caused India-Israel relationship to flourish.


Should Pakistan recognize Israel officially and establish diplomatic relationship?

The answer is a sure shot Yes in my opinion.By accepting Officially Pakistan might actually assist in solving the middle-east crisis by acting as a trusted mediator and also prevent the rate at which Israel is supplying arms to India.

Actually I read recently that Musharaff met an Israeli diplomat and had a good discussion.

 

[Vinod2070]

My point is quite clear India captured Kashmir by saying that Maharaja has acceded to India and captured Hyderabad by saying that population is Hindu. Pakistan was not in the position then to fight with India so what different criteria Pakistan adopted?

Isn't it obvious? Pakistan wanted Hyderabad and Junagarh because they had Muslim rulers and Kashmir because it had Muslim majority!

You accused India of double standards. Both the countries were equally guilty of that by your approach.

 

[Vinod2070]

Neo, I have seen the thinking in many Pakistanis that it was India which was more eager for and gained the more from the Indo-Israel relationship. I guess the reasons for this thinking are not difficult to fathom. One can also see some absurd comments that Israel is the reason behind the improved perception of India in the world capitals.

The facts are actually quite different. Israel is at least as keen on this relationship and it is equally if not more beneficial to them. India does not have to convince Israel for friendship. They were always keen for that.

It was India which was totally one sided in its support to Palestinians throughout our so called socialist period. Once we adopted a more even handed approach of support for a Palestinian nation and fair relations with Israel, the friendship was a natural outcome of that given the similiar predicament of facing similiar challenges and being democratic in an unstable neghborhood.

 

[Vinod2070]

This must be the biggest joke!

Answer lies in following questions:
What is India's military build up (defence) all about?
Where the hell suddenly India started to learn making missiles?
Who the hell influenced US foreign policy to take about turn with regards to India?
Next is Influencing Europe embrace same Indians whom they once called ****** creatures from slums?

I don't know what's wrong with Israeli's why they are so precarious of Pakistan?
Is their any historic reason?
I'm a Pakistani I have no problems with any one based on his religon or acts until it effects the society!

I cannot believe a nation who controls world's economy and sits on the most influential benches around the world could be so conservative in their belief and I'm sure Indians must be laughing at them at their backs for having them for free ride.

So the Israelis are fools that they are allowing themselves to be taken for a ride.

And you are the only wise one!

And if you can read the statements of their leaders after removing your tinted glasses you will know that it is Israel which is more keen on the relationship. It is much more important for them than it is for India.

And you are overestimating the role of Pakistan in this relationship. Pakistan doesn't have to be a factor in all diplomatic exchanges that happen in the world.

And you can bet that if some Europeans called Indians some racist names, they were not welcoming Pakistanis with open arms either. For a Pakistani to act racist on Indians is really funny. I know of one more here who does that quite often.

 

[ak56]

. Pakistan doesn't have to be a factor in all diplomatic exchanges that happen in the world.

I agree, but we are a much smaller country. The US involves us in diplomatic relationships because they want to fight terrorism with their money and our blood.

 

[Vinod2070]

I agree, but we are a much smaller country. The US involves us in diplomatic relationships because they want to fight terrorism with their money and our blood.

But can it happen without your ruling elite's willingness and eagerness?

This has been happening since the Zia days who wanted a price bigger than "peanuts" for allowing the USA to use Pakistan as a staging ground to train and arm the Afghan rebels. The peole who made the money and the people who were doing the dying were different, so it made no difference to the ruling elite. And of course Zia gained his acceptance and legitimacy with the west.

The story was no different after 9/11. Musharraf gained his legitimacy, strutted around the world capitals as a statesman and got money for Pakistan to come out of the bad economic situation.

Of course Pakistan had a price to pay for that. There is no free lunch!

 

[salman nedian]

I agree, but we are a much smaller country. The US involves us in diplomatic relationships because they want to fight terrorism with their money and our blood.

Pakistan has to play a bigger role in future Politics and economics we are the 6th Biggest Nation in the world and with our geographical location we have the advantage the amount of Natural resources that we have is a blessing and India and Israel relations are mainly because that both are the enemies of Pakistan. India want influence on the world and Israel wants to destroy Pakistan(rather they will destroy themselves) so Pakistan is a equal player in world politics and economics the superpower would be in hot water without Pakistan’s support.

 

[JEFF]

Pakistan has to play a bigger role in future Politics and economics we are the 6th Biggest Nation in the world

Sixth Biggest nation in the world in terms of what?

and with our geographical location we have the advantage the amount of Natural resources that we have is a blessing

Every country have their own advantage in geographical location in their own backyard. But as far as pakistan is concerned, advantage is their in terms of US war on terror.

and India and Israel relations are mainly because that both are the enemies of Pakistan.

Absolutely wrong, India has time and again proved that they want friendship with Pakistan and about Isreal, I never heard about Isreali quoting of seeing Pakistan as a enemy.

India want influence on the world

It doesn't translate into harassment of all other nation rather friendly cooperation.

and Israel wants to destroy Pakistan(rather they will destroy themselves)

Why says that?

so Pakistan is a equal player in world politics and economics the superpower would be in hot water without Pakistan’s support.

As far as war on terror is concerned you are right other then that there is no value.