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Israel Bombs Gaza - Hundreds Dead

The Air Services Agreement is multilateral civil law. It is not international law in the accepted sense. I need more.

As for the League of Nations "report", due to the experience of WWII it has been superseded by the U.N. Charter, Article 51:
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.
Terrorist incidents rise to the level of "armed attack", in my opinion, once their scale or repetitiveness is enough to hamper daily life for those affected by them, and Hamas' rocket attacks meet that criterion.
 
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Why do you have to drag India into this? Wait, this is all a part of a big Hindu-Fascist-Zionist Conspiracy isn't it? Now it all makes sense... :crazy:


Dont use the word Conspiracy.

Conspiracy is just a hypothetical speculation

This is fact and truth, shouldn't be confused with conspiracy
 
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International Law and War Crimes

The second limit international law places on the conduct of war is the principle of proportionality - you can only use the amount of force against military targets necessary to achieve your objective.

International law lays down rules for how the civilian population is to be protected. Obviously civilians cannot be intentionally attacked, but, indiscriminate attacks are prohibited as well. Such attacks are defined as those that "employ a method of combat which cannot be directed at specific military objectives."

There is a special law protecting objects indispensable to the civilian population - the infrastructure of a country. This includes prohibitions on destroying food supplies, water and sewer systems, agriculture, power, medical services, transportation and similar essentials. These cannot be attacked even if there is some military goal, if the effect would be to leave civilians without the essentials for life.

Attacks are also to be limited to strictly military objectives. These are defined as those that make an effective contribution to military action and whose destruction offer a definite military advantage. Civilian objects are not to be attacked. In case of doubt, such as a school, it should be presumed that it is not used as a military object.

International Law and War Crimes

Israel and the Doctrine of Proportionality

What is the doctrine of proportionality?

The doctrine originated with the 1907 Hague Conventions, which govern the laws of war, and was later codified in Article 49 of the International Law Commission's 1980 Draft Articles on State Responsibility (PDF). The doctrine is also referred to indirectly in the 1977 Additional Protocols of the Geneva Conventions. Regardless of whether states are party to the treaties above, experts say the principle is part of what is known as customary international law. According to the doctrine, a state is legally allowed to unilaterally defend itself and right a wrong provided the response is proportional to the injury suffered. The response must also be immediate and necessary, refrain from targeting civilians, and require only enough force to reinstate the status quo ante. That said, experts say the proportionality principle is open to interpretation and depends on the context. "It's always a subjective test," says Michael Newton, associate clinical professor of law at Vanderbilt University Law School. "But if someone punches you in the nose, you don't burn their house down."

Which international legal cases uphold the doctrine of proportionality?

The doctrine has historically been upheld by courts on a wide variety of disputes and issues. It applies to states channeling funds and arms to insurgent groups. In Nicaragua v. USA (1986), the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that U.S. aid to the contras in El Salvador did not constitute "collective self defense" because Nicaraguan support of the Sandinistas did not constitute an armed attack and, further, "self-defense would warrant only measures which are proportional to the armed attack and necessary to respond to it." The principle applies to the use of weapons of mass destruction as well. In 1996, the United Nations asked the ICJ to decide whether the threat or use of nuclear weapons was ever justified in international law. The ICJ, in essence, does not exclude the use of nuclear weapons in self-defense provided the humanitarian laws on armed conflict are upheld. Finally, the principle applies to disputes not related to war or self-defense, such as the Gabcikovo/Nagymaros Project, a system of dams, locks, and hydropower plants on the Danube River originally conceived in 1977 between Hungary and then-Czechoslovakia. After 1989, amid environmental concerns, Slovakia carried out alternate plans and accused Hungary of abandoning work on the project. The ICJ ruled in 1997 that Slovakia's response was not a proportionate countermeasure and deprived Hungary of a vital shared resource (namely, the Danube, which divides the two countries).

Israel and the Doctrine of Proportionality - Council on Foreign Relations
 
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An idians responce in bbc webite.

Added: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 02:37 GMT 02:37 UK

Yes the attacks are justified. As an Indian who is settled abroad I was shocked by the brazen and horrific terror that unfolded in Mumbai on the 26 of November 2008. Wherein terrorists took pot shots at innocent civilians at hotels, railway stations and cafes. The kind of Terror cancer can only be stopped by fighting fire by fire.

Why cant Israel hit back when the USA flattened Iraq and Afghanistan after the 911 bombing? I fully support the Israeli's in their action.

Nathan, Canberra, Australia


and a jewish responce

Added: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 02:33 GMT 02:33 UK

As the descendant of Jewish holocaust survivors I am heartbroken to see what is being done in Israel and Judaism's name today.

Anyone who believes aggression against an already desperate people with little to lose will do anything but make matters worse is deluded. Today's strike will have killed innocent civilians, which is unjustifiable, and will help perpetuate the violence against Israel, which is also crazy.

Nic, London


you decide
 
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The Air Services Agreement is multilateral civil law. It is not international law in the accepted sense. I need more.

As for the League of Nations "report", due to the experience of WWII it has been superseded by the U.N. Charter, Article 51: Terrorist incidents rise to the level of "armed attack", in my opinion, once their scale or repetitiveness is enough to hamper daily life for those affected by them, and Hamas' rocket attacks meet that criterion.

OK why dont you Tell us all what should the palestinians do.
 
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The "proportionality" doctrine appears to be full of holes and exceptions:
"The U.S. concluded that the attack on Pearl Harbor necessitated overthrowing the Japanese government," Glennon says. "Strictly speaking, would the doctrine of proportionality have permitted only a tit-for-tat response? That's one of the uncertainties the doctrine presents."...'"A hospital or church, if defended by enemy troops, becomes a military target." That includes electric grids, he adds.
Furthermore, the linked discussion would appear to specifically endorse, not denounce, Israel's current operation:
offensives carried out by Israel must be related to the military objective of rescuing its soldiers, not exacting punishment on the Lebanese or Palestinian populations. But under certain circumstances, its mission could be expanded to prevent Hamas or Hezbollah from carrying out future cross-border attacks or seizing more soldiers.
While it is clear that proportionality has its applications, as in the case of the Hungary-Czech dam dispute, in Israel's case the threshold appears to be different because of the professed goal of its enemies to exterminate it entirely, a much different level of threat than the subjective one of "humiliation" continually referred to by Arabs as the threat Israel poses to their society.

why dont you Tell us all what should the palestinians do.
I think that's a good question. What can Palestinians do, seeing that they are under the thumb of Hamas which they once elected, but now despise?
 
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Yes solomon3 i can and have the answer to ur questions why the resettlement and reestablishment of Israel etc etc Because its destruction is written preplanned by Allah by the hands of Muslims Army whose Commander General would be Essa- Ibn-Mariam (Jesus). After that i don't need to explain it to you ur belief if ur belief my belief is mine..
 
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Israel Missile Strike on Gaza leaves 230 Dead 400 Wounded

U.S. Defends Israel’s Offensive As Retaliation For Recent Missile Strikes; Other World Leaders Condemn The Fighting

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip, December 27, 2008

Video: Israel Missile Strike on Gaza leaves 230 Dead 400 Wounded

I have also compiled Videos & Images that are somehow unavailable here, you can click this link to view the complete report

Israeli warplanes rained more than 100 tons of bombs on security sites in Hamas-ruled Gaza Saturday and early Sunday, killing at least 230 people in one of the Mideast conflict’s bloodiest assaults in decades. The government said the open-ended campaign was aimed at stopping rocket attacks that have traumatized southern Israel.

Most of the casualties were security forces, but Palestinian officials said at least 15 civilians were among the dead. More than 400 people were also wounded.

The unprecedented assault sparked protests and condemnations throughout the Arab world, and many of Israel’s Western allies urged restraint, though the U.S. blamed Hamas for the fighting.

President Bush was briefed on the situation in Israel and Gaza during his daily intelligence briefing, reports CBS News White House correspondent Mark Knoller. Mr. Bush also spoke by phone to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to discuss the Middle East.

President-elect Barack Obama, vacationing in Hawaii, was also briefed and is monitoring the situation closely, CBS News correspondent Jaime Farnsworth reports.

An Obama transition aide said that Mr. Obama also spoke with Rice and was in touch with the White House.



Video | Israeli Leaders On Air Strikes (2:20)
Video | Gaza Missile Strike Uproar (1:33)
Video | U.S. Defends Israeli Strikes (1:42)


There was no end in sight to the fighting. The first round of strikes began around noon Saturday followed by successive waves of attacks that continued into the early hours Sunday.

Israel warned it might go after Hamas’ leaders, and militants kept pelting Israel with rockets — killing at least one Israeli and wounding six.

Hundreds of Israeli infantry and armored corps troops headed for the Gaza border in preparation for a possible ground invasion, military officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity under army guidelines.



Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said in an interview with the CBS Evening News that “if the goals of the operation will not be achieved by airstrike, we will have to consider boots on the ground.”

He said those goals were “To change totally the behavior of Hamas. It’s a terrorist regime that keeps shelling Israel with thousands of rockets and mortar shells over our civilian population indiscriminately.”

Asked if Israel’s response to Hamas’ rocket fire might be considered disproportionate, Barak told the Evening News, “We are trying to avoid damage, but we have to achieve our goals.”

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said late Saturday that the goal was “to bring about a fundamental improvement in the security situation.” He added, “It could take some time.”

The Israeli airstrikes caused widespread panic and confusion, and black plumes of smoke billowed above the territory, ruled by the Islamic militant Hamas for the past 18 months. Some of the Israeli missiles struck in densely populated areas as students were leaving school, and women rushed into the streets frantically looking for their children.

“My son is gone, my son is gone,” wailed Said Masri, a 57-year-old shopkeeper, as he sat in the middle of a Gaza City street, slapping his face and covering his head with dust from a bombed-out security compound nearby.

He said he had sent his 9-year-old son out to purchase cigarettes minutes before the airstrikes began and could not find him. “May I burn like the cigarettes, may Israel burn,” Masri moaned.

Militants often operate against Israel from civilian areas. Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.

The offensive began eight days after a six-month truce between Israel and the militants expired. The Israeli army says Palestinian militants have fired some 300 rockets and mortars at Israeli targets over the past week, and 10 times that number over the past year.

“There is a time for calm and there is a time for fighting, and now is the time for fighting,” said Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak, vowing to expand the operation if necessary.

In Gaza City’s main security compound, bodies of more than a dozen uniformed Hamas police lay on the ground. Civilians rushed wounded people in cars and vans to hospitals because there weren’t enough ambulances to transport all the dead and wounded.

“There are heads without bodies …. There’s blood in the corridors. People are weeping, women are crying, doctors are shouting, ” said nurse Ahmed Abdel Salaam from Shifa Hospital, Gaza’s main treatment center.

Military officials said aircraft released more than 100 tons of bombs in the first nine hours of fighting, focusing initially on militant training camps, rocket-manufacturing facilities and weapons warehouses that had been identified in advance.

A second wave was directed at squads who fired about 180 rockets and mortars at Israeli border communities. Palestinians said Israeli bombs destroyed a mosque early Sunday. The military called it a “base for terrorist activities.” Another target early Sunday was the Al Aqsa TV station used by Hamas. Its studio building was destroyed, but the station remained on the air with a mobile unit. Palestinians counted about 20 airstrikes in the first hours of Sunday.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Hamas’ political leaders could soon be targeted. “”Hamas is a terrorist organization and nobody is immune,” she declared.

The campaign was launched six weeks before national elections. Livni and Barak hope to succeed Ehud Olmert as prime minister, and the outgoing government has faced pressure to take tough action.
Gaza’s political leaders, who have been targeted in the past, went into hiding earlier this week. In a speech broadcast on local Gaza television, Hamas’ prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, declared his movement would not be cowed.

“We are stronger, and more determined, and have more will, and we will hold onto our rights even more than before,” Haniyeh said. It was not clear where he spoke.

In Damascus, Syria, Hamas’ top leader, Khaled Mashaal, called on Palestinians to rekindle their fight against Israel. “This is the time for a third uprising,” he said.

Israel withdrew its troops and settlers in 2005 after crushing the second Palestinian uprising, but it has maintained control over the territory’s border crossings.

Despite the overwhelming show of force, it was not clear the offensive would halt the rocket fire. Past operations have never achieved that goal.

Late Saturday, Gaza health official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said 230 Palestinians were killed and more than 400 were wounded.

The lone fatality in Israel was in the town of Netivot, where a rocket killed an Israeli man. Six other people were wounded, rescue services said.

Netivot only recently become a target, and dozens of stunned residents, some weeping, gathered at the house that took the deadly rocket hit. A hole gaped in one of the walls, which was pocked with shrapnel marks.

“We need to finish this once and for all and strike back hard,” said next-door neighbor Avraham Chen-Chatam, 57.

Streets were nearly empty in Sderot, the Israeli border town pummeled hardest by rockets. But dozens of people congregated on a hilltop to watch the Israeli aerial attacks.

The TV images of dead and wounded Gazans inflamed Arab public opinion, and protests erupted in Arab Israeli villages, the West Bank and elsewhere in the Arab world.

The campaign embarrassed moderate Arab regimes that have encouraged Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking and weakened Hamas’ rival, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who has ruled only the West Bank since Hamas violently seized control of Gaza in June 2007.

Abbas condemned the attacks, but fearing violence could spiral out of control, his forces also broke up protests in the West Bank.

The offensive also risked opening new fronts, including unrest that could destabilize the West Bank and ignite possible rocket attacks by Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas on northern Israel.

Britain, the EU, the Vatican, the U.N. secretary-general and special Mideast envoy Tony Blair all called for an immediate restoration of calm. The Arab League scheduled an emergency meeting Wednesday to discuss the situation.

But the U.S., Israel’s closest ally, blamed Hamas. “These people are nothing but thugs, so Israel is going to defend its people against terrorists like Hamas that indiscriminately kill their own people,” White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said.

Brooke Anderson, chief national security spokesperson for Mr. Obama said that Obama is monitoring the situation closely but stressed that “there is one president at a time,” Farnsworth reported.

Still, Obama has previously given some indications of his views on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Asked by the New York Times whether Israel should negotiate with Hamas in Gaza, he replied, “I don’t think any country would find it acceptable to have missiles raining down on the heads of their citizens.”

“In terms of negotiations with Hamas, it is very hard to negotiate with a group that is not representative of a nation state, does not recognize your right to exist, has consistently used terror as a weapon,” he said. “I think that Hamas leadership will have to make a decision at some point as to whether it is a serious political party seeking to represent the aspirations of the Palestinian people. And, as a consequence, willing to recognize Israel’s right to exist and renounce violence as a tool to achieve its aims.”

Gaza’s political leaders, who have been targeted in the past, went into hiding earlier this week. In a speech broadcast on local Gaza television, Hamas’ prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, declared his movement would not be cowed.

“We are stronger, and more determined, and have more will, and we will hold onto our rights even more than before,” Haniyeh said. It was not clear where he spoke.

In Damascus, Syria, Hamas’ top leader, Khaled Mashaal, called on Palestinians to rekindle their fight against Israel. “This is the time for a third uprising,” he said.

Israel withdrew its troops and settlers in 2005 after crushing the second Palestinian uprising, but it has maintained control over the territory’s border crossings.

Despite the overwhelming show of force, it was not clear the offensive would halt the rocket fire. Past operations have never achieved that goal.

Late Saturday, Gaza health official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said 230 Palestinians were killed and more than 400 were wounded.

The lone fatality in Israel was in the town of Netivot, where a rocket killed an Israeli man. Six other people were wounded, rescue services said.

Netivot only recently become a target, and dozens of stunned residents, some weeping, gathered at the house that took the deadly rocket hit. A hole gaped in one of the walls, which was pocked with shrapnel marks.

“We need to finish this once and for all and strike back hard,” said next-door neighbor Avraham Chen-Chatam, 57.

Streets were nearly empty in Sderot, the Israeli border town pummeled hardest by rockets. But dozens of people congregated on a hilltop to watch the Israeli aerial attacks.

The TV images of dead and wounded Gazans inflamed Arab public opinion, and protests erupted in Arab Israeli villages, the West Bank and elsewhere in the Arab world.

The campaign embarrassed moderate Arab regimes that have encouraged Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking and weakened Hamas’ rival, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who has ruled only the West Bank since Hamas violently seized control of Gaza in June 2007.

Abbas condemned the attacks, but fearing violence could spiral out of control, his forces also broke up protests in the West Bank.

The offensive also risked opening new fronts, including unrest that could destabilize the West Bank and ignite possible rocket attacks by Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas on northern Israel.

Britain, the EU, the Vatican, the U.N. secretary-general and special Mideast envoy Tony Blair all called for an immediate restoration of calm. The Arab League scheduled an emergency meeting Wednesday to discuss the situation.

But the U.S., Israel’s closest ally, blamed Hamas. “These people are nothing but thugs, so Israel is going to defend its people against terrorists like Hamas that indiscriminately kill their own people,” White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said.

Brooke Anderson, chief national security spokesperson for Mr. Obama said that Obama is monitoring the situation closely but stressed that “there is one president at a time,” Farnsworth reported.

Still, Obama has previously given some indications of his views on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Asked by the New York Times whether Israel should negotiate with Hamas in Gaza, he replied, “I don’t think any country would find it acceptable to have missiles raining down on the heads of their citizens.”

“In terms of negotiations with Hamas, it is very hard to negotiate with a group that is not representative of a nation state, does not recognize your right to exist, has consistently used terror as a weapon,” he said. “I think that Hamas leadership will have to make a decision at some point as to whether it is a serious political party seeking to represent the aspirations of the Palestinian people. And, as a consequence, willing to recognize Israel’s right to exist and renounce violence as a tool to achieve its aims.”



Source: Haqeeqat.Org
 
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This news is lesson for those who say spent less on defense.
if ur defense less then same will be happened you.

Certainly, if one is not catious of own defence then will suffer. It is a Turkish proverb which best defines this thought.
' If you will make you look like a sheep, you will become a meal to the wolf '. But another point is there also, there are needed men ready to fight and die for the just cause. Being having a lavishly and inhuman ruler and officers of third rate financial conscious nature how will one make up a stiff resistance in the field. A fight with half-heart is more disastrous. Machines and weapons do not fight but a dedicated and devoted man.
 
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It pisses me off so much that Israel gets total support for the utter destruction of Lebanon over 2 soldiers (and to be fair a ***** of rockets) but 300 Russian citizens get killed and Russia is portrayed as the bad guys in US Media...this is just amazing...
The hypocrisy is unbelievable.
 
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Lol! Let's not feed the troll. Let's feed him to the Moderators :lol:

Hey forumu, why don't you change your flag to the great blue kike flag? Would suit you just about right.
 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm

Israel hit new targets overnight, as troops stayed on alert by the border

Israeli jets have launched a second day of air attacks on the Gaza Strip, amid warnings that operations will continue until Hamas ends rocket fire from Gaza.

Palestinian officials raised the number killed on Saturday to 271, while Israel said it targeted 30 sites overnight.

At the UN, the Security Council called for an end to all violence in Gaza, including rocket attacks from Gaza.

Israel says at least 110 rockets have been fired over the weekend, and warned it may send troops into Gaza.

Thousands of reserve soldiers have been called up for duty, reports say.

Air strikes were launched on Saturday against Hamas targets in the densely-populated coastal territory, less than a week after the expiry of a six-month-long ceasefire deal with the militant group.

The high numbers of casualties made Saturday the single deadliest day in the Gaza Strip since Israel's occupation of the territory in 1967, analysts said.

Most of those killed were policemen in the Hamas militant movement, which controls Gaza, but women and children also died, Gaza officials said.


About 700 others were wounded as missiles struck security compounds and militant bases, the officials added.

In Israel, one person was killed, in the town of Netivot, some 20km (12 miles) east of Gaza, while there were reports of several Qassam rocket strikes early on Sunday.

Rockets landed in Ashdod, Israel's largest southern city - some 38km (23 miles) from Gaza - the deepest they have ever struck inside Israel, Israeli media said. No injuries were reported.

Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak has said military operations could widen to include a ground operation if air strikes fail to change Hamas's behaviour.

Military fighter jets have already targeted 210 sites since the operation began on Saturday, Israeli security sources said.

'Protecting citizens'

Gazans are preparing to hold funerals for those killed on Saturday, while a general strike has been called for the Palestinian territories.

A resident describes the attacks in Gaza

At the UN, the Security Council ended emergency talks with a call for an end to hostilities, speaking of "serious concern" at the escalation of the situation in Gaza.

Israel's UN ambassador, Gabriela Shalev, repeated Israel's stance that it was taking action to "protect its citizens from further terrorist attacks".

US ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad suggested Hamas held the key to restoring calm.

"We believe the way forward from here is for rocket attacks against Israel to stop, for all violence to end," he said.

He was implicitly backed up from Cairo by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas - whose Fatah faction are bitter rivals of Hamas.

"We could have avoided what happened," Mr Abbas said, saying the Islamist group should have renewed the ceasefire before it lapsed.

As air raids continued, Palestinian medical officials said two people were killed when a mosque was struck late on Saturday night in Gaza City. A Hamas-run TV station was also targeted, reports said.

After daybreak, a BBC journalist in Gaza City said a Hamas-run security and prison compound was also struck by at least three missiles on Sunday morning.

In Saturday's main incidents:

• Israel hit targets in all Gaza's main towns, including Gaza City in the north and Khan Younis and Rafah in the south

• Hamas said all its security compounds in the strip were destroyed; the head of Gaza's police was among those killed

• Medical officials said most of those killed were Hamas policemen, but civilians were among the dead

• Staff at Gaza City's main hospital, Shifa, said it was struggling to cope with the influx of injuries.

'Time for fighting'

The raids came days after a six month truce with Hamas expired and as Israel prepared for a general election in February.


Palestine has never witnessed an uglier massacre
Ismail Haniya
Hamas leader in Gaza


Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak has explained the operation in stark terms, saying "the time has come to fight".

In response the exiled leader of Hamas, Khaled Meshaal, called for a new intifada, or uprising, against Israel, while the movement's Gaza leader, Ismail Haniya, called the attack an "ugly massacre".

International reaction to the bombing has been dominated by calls for restraint.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, Middle East envoy Tony Blair and the French EU presidency all called for a ceasefire.

Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak defends Gaza strike

Although a six month truce between Hamas and Israel was agreed earlier this year, it was regularly under strain and was allowed to lapse when it expired this month.

Hamas blamed Israel for the end of the ceasefire, saying it had not respected its terms, including the lifting of the blockade under which little more than humanitarian aid has been allowed into Gaza.

Israel said it initially began easing the blockade, but this was halted when Hamas failed to fulfil what Israel says were agreed conditions, including ending all rocket fire and halting weapons smuggling.

From 1967 Israel's military occupied the Gaza Strip and Jewish settlers built communities within the territory. Israel withdrew in 2005 but has maintained control of Gaza's borders.
 
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My language was edited out why did I get an infraction? That's cheap. Meanwhile the trolls comments are still visible.

As a senior member I expect you to follow forum rules, you should know better after putting more than 1000 posts.

Report to mods instead feeding the troll.

Wonderful justice. :frown:
He got banned and you're still there...
Wonderful justice ey? :rolleyes:
 
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Well I didn't feed him, come check my profile see what he's doing. I'm a victim of targeted attacks much before I made fun of his mother.
Report and leave it to mods, don't feed the troll by insuting his mother.
She didn't do anything wrong!

If my security is compromised much further..
Did your account get hacked, personal info leaked or what? What are you talking about???

I will disappear from this forum for good.
Thats your choice, members are free to register or leave, we're not forcing anyone to stay.
But if you stay we expect you to respect forum rules.
 
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