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Israel and Creation Myths

Because maybe they'd like a more independent source. Solomon is famous here for facetious hand picked articles in which he clumps all the problems in the ME and tries to identify them with a sole purpose to make it easier for him not allow any other views to be expressed and to justify his ignorance which is purposeful. He isn't stupid but this is how he and other Jews want the west to view things.

And I looked at a couple of the points this author is trying to make, some I never heard people trying to claim.

We can refute many things here, but, Solomon will continue to present the same view points and the same scoring points method. He doesn't believe in anything beside his view.

So we would be just wasting our time.

This is what PDF is about - exchanging ideas even if the writer will not be persuaded, and most people do not easily change their mind, others will read the posts. I will be happy to see serious arguments against what it is said in the article and we can discuss it. Maybe new arguments will surface and give us all something to think about.
 
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This is what PDF is about - exchanging ideas even if the writer will not be persuaded, and most people do not easily change their mind, others will read the posts. I will be happy to see serious arguments against what it is said in the article and we can discuss it. Maybe new arguments will surface and give us all something to think about.

As I've said, no matter how serious the argument gets he will bring us back to repeat the process with his nifty language meant to make assertions that he wants us to do all the dirty work to refute him and if we don't this is his way of declaring himself credible and providing 'factual' statements.

Once he puts his dirty game aside and starts behaving as an reasonable human being and not a propagandist then we will get involved.
 
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I think it is the "underdog" effect, where people will sympathise with the weaker party.

Back in the 1960's, much of the world was cheering for Israel because they were the underdog fighting against all odds.

Nowadays, Israel is on a much more powerful position, so people often sympathise with the Palestinians who are now perceived to be the much weaker party.

Better than what happened to China anyway.

Nobody was cheering for us when we were weak, and having war crimes committed against us by the Axis powers. Our "Allies" only intervened after they were directly attacked themselves, and by then... that was already 10 years too late...

Now that we are strong again, people are even less inclined towards us.
 
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I think it is the "underdog" effect, where people will sympathise with the weaker party.

Back in the 1960's, much of the world was cheering for Israel because they were the underdog fighting against all odds.

Nowadays, Israel is on a much more powerful position, so people often sympathise with the Palestinians who are now perceived to be the much weaker party.

Better than what happened to China anyway.

Nobody was cheering for us when we were weak, and having war crimes committed against us by the Axis powers. Our "Allies" only intervened after they were directly attacked themselves, and by then... that was already 10 years too late...

Now that we are strong again, people are even less inclined towards us.
It's better to be hated than pitied.
 
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Nobody was cheering for us when we were weak, and having war crimes committed against us by the Axis powers. Our "Allies" only intervened after they were directly attacked themselves -
As an American, I'm greatly offended by this. Americans in the 1930s were mostly pacifists. The only exception was the willingness of the American people to support China's struggle against Japan. America cut off oil shipments to Japan when Japan renewed its offensives - a move that ultimately led to Pearl Harbor. Not only did the U.S. provide weapons and financial aid to the Nationalists but provided aircraft and U.S. pilots - the "Flying Tigers" - to assist. (That the Tigers did not go into action until after Pearl Harbor was more due to the Japanese than the Americans, for the pilots were already training in Burma under Chinese command at the time.)

We know that the Nationalists were corrupt and their military often inept - but as far as the Americans were concerned they were the only game in town: since they controlled the ports they were the only Chinese the U.S. could supply large quantities of weapons to. Supplying Mao's group was considered later on but it was thought that this would only stoke China's domestic conflict further, rather than help win the battle against the Japanese.

I'll add that Chinese, regardless of political orientation, were very good allies during WWII. If I recall correctly, American pilots shot down by Japanese over China were given every protection and consideration by the Chinese people, even at the risk of their own lives. It was only due to the joint opposition of Britain and Russia that China did not have a more active role in shaping the postwar world, as Franklin Roosevelt wanted them at the table in every important conference.
 
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We know that the Nationalists were corrupt and their military often inept - but as far as the Americans were concerned they were the only game in town: since they controlled the ports they were the only Chinese the U.S. could supply large quantities of weapons to. Supplying Mao's group was considered later on but it was thought that this would only stoke China's domestic conflict further, rather than help win the battle against the Japanese.

Except the KMT were only interested in fighting the Civil War against the CCP, not against the Japanese invaders!

Chiang Kai-shek was even kidnapped by his own Nationalist generals in 1936, because he preferred to fight other Chinese instead of the invading Japanese.

In the end, the two greatest victims of the Axis war crimes and human experiments... the Jews and the Chinese... no help came from their "allies" until it was already far too late. In the case of China it was more than a decade too late.

And "saving the Jews" was not the reason for the Allied war against the Axis, it never was. At that time, antisemitism was widespread all over Europe, they were fighting for themselves, not the Jews.

Which is why it is better to be strong yourself rather than to hope others will help. They will only come when their own interests are attacked.

Look how America is going against Israel's interests now in the Iran nuclear issue.
 
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They feel they don't have to. They think they merely have to ignore it themselves and drown it out from the ears of others. In Jonah Goldberg's Prisoners he records an incident that shows many Pakistanis (and perhaps other Muslims, too) are educated to do this at an early age: visiting a Pakistani madrassa, he voiced an opinion or interpretation contrary to what the students were taught. Their response (with their teacher in the room) was to unite in voice to drown him out rather than respond to his words directly. Since justice for a dissenting individual is not possible this means such Pakistanis value ochlocratic rather than democratic rule.


Since when Mad-house Madrassah illiterates represent the whole nation?

I expected better from you Solomon. a lot better.

It makes a lot of sense what you say. It seems that instead of taking the opportunity for a dialogue and learn from a close hand about the people they are obsessed with, the only try to shut you.

I am sure you had some discussions with your far right people. How did they respond your reason and logic?

I bet it wasn't too different from how the extremists in other parts of the world.

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Israel and Creation Myths

NOVEMBER 29, 2013 11:11 AM 14 COMMENTS
Author:
shayne-avatar.jpg
David Shayne



Physical map of the State of Israel.

This week marks the 66thanniversary of one of the more celebrated events in modern Jewish history: The United Nations General Assembly decision to partition the British Mandate of Palestine into two independent states – one Jewish and the other Arab, adopted Nov. 29, 1947.

The Arab world with one voice bitterly condemned what was called “the Partition Plan” and threatened to destroy the Jewish State if it was declared. In fact, the Arab side did not wait until that date, sixth months later, but attacked Jewish Palestine the following day, launching what Israelis call the War of Independence and the Palestinians call the “Naqba” (the catastrophe), what Arabs see as their dispossession and loss of patrimony.

Ever since then, shifting coalitions of Arab and non-Arab forces, have waged continuous war against Israel, both on and off the battlefield. No less relentless has been the propaganda war. This propaganda war, supported by some Americans and Europeans, includes attempts to distort and obfuscate the historical record regarding Israel’s founding.

One of these tactics is to attempt to propagate “creation myths” intended to give the false impression that Israel is an artificial entity wrongfully imposed by outside powers on a unfairly victimized Arab population.

Below four of these myths are discussed:

Myth No. 1: The UN created Israel.
The UN is an international organization of nation-states created by treaty shortly after World War II, with the primary purpose to prevent war. It has two main governing bodies, the General Assembly and the Security Council. Most of the authority rests with the Security Council, the only body that can create binding obligations for member states. The General Assembly can only make recommendations or general policy declarations.

In May 1947, the British government announced it would end its 30-year rule over Palestine and requested the UN decide its future. On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly passed Resolution 181 , the Partition Plan. Res. 181 was a suggestion. It had no binding force. The Arab side rejected the resolution and, as mentioned above, launched a war of annihilation against Jewish Palestine, and then Israel.

The Security Council could have supported the General Assembly with its own resolution and sent forces to keep the peace, but it did not. No nation, or group of nations or any UN organ took steps of any kind to prevent or punish the Arab aggression. Indeed, when the armies of five Arab nations invaded the newly established State of Israel, they flagrantly violated the UN Charter, which forbids wars of aggression, but the Security Council still did nothing.

In the end, no nation or group of nations took any concrete political or military steps to stop the Arab armies. No foreign army came to Israel’s defense, not in 1948 and not ever.

Myth No. 2: The US created Israel.
President Truman was in office in 1947 and 1948. He was personally sympathetic with plight of Jewish Holocaust survivors (see further discussion below), but his Secretary of State favored adopting the same Pro-Arab stance the British government had adopted. So, while the US supported partition (at least at first) and became the first nation to extend formal recognition to the new government of Israel, it refused to extend any assistance and, in fact, imposed a facially neutral arms embargo on all of the warring parties. The embargo, however, favored the Arab side as it received all the arms it needed from the British or other handy sources. Contrary to what many people think, the US did not become Israel’s chief supporter and military supplier until after the 1967 Six Day War.

The only world power willing to aid Israel is one that may surprise some readers: the Soviet Union, which allowed its satellite state, Czechoslovakia, to sell desperately needed arms to Israel. While Stalin was no Judophile, to put it mildly, he saw the real politik advantage to helping Israel beat back its Arab allies, which it was only able to partially do after months of long and bitter fighting. Britain, a Soviet rival, thereby suffered loss of prestige and influence in the Arab world. (Only a few short years later, Britain and the Soviet Union would be on opposite sides of the Arab-Israeli conflict, with the Soviets backing the Arabs and Britain backing Israel.)

In the end, Israel created itself, as did the US and as many other nations, through the ultimate exercise of a popular will seeking self-determination and, especially, self-preservation against the Arab onslaught. No outside power can take credit-or blame-for Israel’s existence.

Myth No. 3: Israel was created as a result of or in compensation for the Holocaust.
This is a particularly oft-repeated myth by Israel’s enemies, e.g. Iran’s Ahmadinejad, in order to negate the truth that the State of Israel is a natural, organic result of a national group exercising its will. The Holocaust and its aftermath certainly played a catalytic role, in that it galvanized the Jewish people, both inside and outside of Palestine, to unite, organize and rebel against British rule to achieve independence, and this, in no small part, to provide a refuge for the tens of thousands of survivors trapped in Displaced Persons Camps. The existence of these camps also created a certain amount of sympathy in Europe and the US, especially in light of the reluctance of any government to take in large numbers of these refugees. Beyond that, the Holocaust played no role in Israel’s founding. In fact, the number of Holocaust survivors who actually made it to either Palestine or Israel were but a fraction of the number of Jewish immigrants (olim) who arrived both before and after the founding of the State.

As already explained, it is simply untrue that any nations or group of nations “imposed” the Israeli state at all, whether due to the Holocaust or for any other reason.

Myth No. 4: Israel could not exist but for the lands and property stolen from dispossessed Arabs in 1948.
This one is such a whopper that even smarter Arab propagandists know better than to repeat it. But given how much ignorance and misinformation is spread about Israel, especially on the Internet, it needs addressing. First, the underlying premise, that the Jews willfully and maliciously dispossessed the entire Arab population, is false at many levels. A significant portion (about one third) of Palestine’s Arabs were dispossessed but as result of a war their side started. A detailed analysis of the causes of Arab dispossession is beyond the scope of this article. It will just be noted that fighters on both sides committed atrocities and civilians on both sides suffered terribly, including losing their homes. The suffering that was caused, however, is largely the fault of the Arab side that launched and perpetuated the war, as it continued to do long after 1948. Blaming Israel for the Palestinian “Naqba” is a classic case of blaming the victim for the bad outcome incurred by the would-be victimizer whose evil designs are thwarted.

But assuming, for the sake of argument only, that Israel was to blame, this myth would still be a lie because it ignores the basic fact that those parts of Palestine that became “The State of Israel” were developed mostly by the Jews who lived there. Jews founded Tel Aviv, most of Haifa, and Western Jerusalem and hundreds of smaller towns and villages long before 1948. Yes, the Israelis did acquire and use abandoned Arab property and even built a few villages over abandoned Arab villages, but these made up a tiny percent of privately owned Jewish property, or state lands acquired through independence.

Had there been no war, there would have been no dispossession, and yet, there still would have been a thriving Jewish State in former Palestine. Arab property was neither coveted nor needed before the war, although occasionally it was plundered and appropriated afterward. (But the same is true for thousands of Jewish homes and property that ended up in Arab-controlled Palestinian areas, i.e, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, not to mention the millions of Jews plundered in Arab countries in revenge for the “Naqba.”)

To conclude, many currently existing nation-states, besides the US, “willed” themselves into existence often by throwing off the rule of a foreign power (e.g. Greece, India, Pakistan) or were born out civil war (e.g., South Korea, Eritrea). Israel is no different, and has no less of a right to exist than any of those nations. And all of the claims that somehow Israel is an artificial entity with no right to exist is just a myth.

The world has been sorely remiss in remaining silent in or acquiescing to the blatant lies the anti-Israel forces spread. The issue is not simply historical accuracy and fairness. Palestinian Arab hatred, intransigence and violence is fueled by this false narrative of Israel’s illegitimacy. Peace will only be possible when Palestinian leadership and its supporters are forced to confront and acknowledge the truth: The Palestinian Naqba was self inflicted. It’s time for Palestinians to own up to that fact, to put an end to their “righteous” warfare, and for them to live in peace with their Israeli neighbors.



Defeated people tend to live with constipated conspiracy theories.

Best wishes for Israel. May she survive for 1000s of years. May she be the source of peace and prosperity and stability in the region.



Amen
 
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Since when Mad-house Madrassah illiterates represent the whole nation? I expected better from you Solomon. a lot better.
My information sources are limited to media and expatriate accounts plus a mere handful of Americans. I'm not going to Pakistan to conduct my own survey.

At the same time, you have to admit that many of Pakistan's politicians - including those who know better - bend over to accommodate militants trained in such madrassas - at least in Pakistan's media - and more politicians won't counter such words. If the words of the militants remain unchallenged then the militants represent the nation, yes?[/quote]

Best wishes for Israel. May she survive for 1000s of years. May she be the source of peace and prosperity and stability in the region.
These things have happened in the past and are happening now. It's not by Israel's choice that more of its neighbors won't share in Israel's blessings.
 
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My information sources are limited to media and expatriate accounts plus a mere handful of Americans. I'm not going to Pakistan to conduct my own survey.

At the same time, you have to admit that many of Pakistan's politicians - including those who know better - bend over to accommodate militants trained in such madrassas - at least in Pakistan's media - and more politicians won't counter such words. If the words of the militants remain unchallenged then the militants represent the nation, yes?

Many "sane" pakistanis in fact relate to the predicament of Israel.

Just like Israel's right to exist in the sea of Arab masses
Pakistan's right to exist has been challenged by the sea of Hindustanis that surrounds us.

We fully appreciate how difficult it is survive when the odds and numbers are stacked against you by oder of magnitude.


As far as politicians towing the lines in favor of Mullahs. It is complicated shall I say

But there is plenty of ground swell against Mullahs.

Anyone openly supporting Mullahs and not doing development work, is thrown out of government in the next election.


Just see the results of recent elections and judge yourself.


Peace
 
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Defeated people tend to live with constipated conspiracy theories.
The WWI Germans did. The WWII Germans did not. The difference was Adenauer's leadership and de-nazification by the occupiers. (I don't think de-nazification would have worked without Adenauer.)


Many "sane" pakistanis in fact relate to the predicament of Israel. Just like Israel's right to exist in the sea of Arab masses
Pakistan's right to exist has been challenged by the sea of Hindustanis that surrounds us.
We fully appreciate how difficult it is survive when the odds and numbers are stacked against you by oder of magnitude.
As far as politicians towing the lines in favor of Mullahs. It is complicated shall I say
I imagine this could be the attitude of Pakistan's military leadership.

But there is plenty of ground swell against Mullahs.
Anyone openly supporting Mullahs and not doing development work, is thrown out of government in the next election.
Just see the results of recent elections and judge yourself.
Over thousands of years Jews have seen all attempts at liberalization fail when a society fails to confront intolerance within. The government structure can remain intact yet the rot grows from within as people or classes become anathematized. Failure can be slow or it can be sudden, from internal revolution or external invasion, from emigration or demographic collapse; but nonetheless it occurs. For more you may want to read the article How to stop killing in the name of God.
 
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Many "sane" pakistanis in fact relate to the predicament of Israel.

Just like Israel's right to exist in the sea of Arab masses
Pakistan's right to exist has been challenged by the sea of Hindustanis that surrounds us.

We fully appreciate how difficult it is survive when the odds and numbers are stacked against you by oder of magnitude.


As far as politicians towing the lines in favor of Mullahs. It is complicated shall I say

But there is plenty of ground swell against Mullahs.

Anyone openly supporting Mullahs and not doing development work, is thrown out of government in the next election.


Just see the results of recent elections and judge yourself.


Peace

Trust me friend, your words fall on deaf ears... Troloman only wants to hear one man's words... His own!
 
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The WWI Germans did. The WWII Germans did not. The difference was Adenauer's leadership and de-nazification by the occupiers. (I don't think de-nazification would have worked without Adenauer.)

So did Japanese. But then Germans and Japanese were super powers of their time and hence enough of sane people to stop their nut cases from dragging the rest of their nations into the abyss of death and destruction.


I imagine this could be the attitude of Pakistan's military leadership.
AND Pakistani civilians. It is just that we are all working on making our country better. But Mullahs get more attention by the world and even intellectuals like yourself.


Over thousands of years Jews have seen all attempts at liberalization fail when a society fails to confront intolerance within.


Same as Christian experience when they got rid of fundamentalist disease, the same disease that resulted in deaths of millions of Jewish and non Christian people.

yeap.

Now we have the same disease and we have to fight it and crush it just like Jewish and Christian people did.


peace

Trust me friend, your words fall on deaf ears... Troloman only wants to hear one man's words... His own!


Let's see if that's true in this thread ;)
 
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