Israel and a Solution to Its Conflict

[Solomon2]

I know. About the plight of the Jews, I think that there is no dispute in the Chinese BBS. But, sir, just enough for this explanation is that some of the traditional Jewish bad reputation

"Envy of Jewish talents and brains has moved the Gentiles to behave like wild beasts toward a people in some respects their superior" - Mark Twain. You may have noted that some non-Chinese treat Chinese people the same way.

yes, the environment needs to bear a big responsibility, but that does not mean the Jews completely exonerate some bad behavior.
By the way, recently there is some bad things about the situation of Jews in the Middle East, may be very offensive, you like to listen ? I also want to see how the Jews to defense.

Your English is far more accomplished than my Chinese, yet I'm not sure I understand you here.

 

[huzihaidao12]

I know. About the plight of the Jews, I think that there is no dispute in the Chinese BBS. But, sir, it is not enough for this explanation to some traditional Jewish bad reputation, yes, the environment needs to bear a big responsibility, but that does not mean the Jews completely exonerate out of some bad behavior.

By the way, recently there is some bad words about the situation of Jews in the Middle East, may be very offensive, you want to listen ? I also want to see how the Jews to defense.

My broken English, I changed, very sorry, how fell now?

 

[huzihaidao12]

"Envy of Jewish talents and brains has moved the Gentiles to behave like wild beasts toward a people in some respects their superior" - Mark Twain. You may have noted that some non-Chinese treat Chinese people the same way.

Seriously, there are some facts, but still it is not enough, I think. As for we Chinese, if you say Chinese in Southeast Asia, I can say have some similarities, such as weak position, but still different and the Jews, no offense , but at least the Chinese are not such a bad actions, their "crimes" may be rich, but not stingy and excessive greed.

 

[Solomon2]

Well, it isn't just what Mark Twain said. There is also something Chinese may have difficulty grasping, the fact that Jews represent - whether we want to or not - the moral standards espoused in the Torah and Talmud. In every age there have been Jews trying to live by its precepts. Since these include honest and responsible conduct of business affairs, personal relationships, and community matters by our example we have been seen as a natural enemy by the criminal, the corrupt, the immoral, and the irresponsible.

Yet Jewish communities world-wide have sought only to impose these standards among ourselves and dealings between Jews and non-Jews, never to saddle another community unwillingly with them. The Chinese are secure with their identity, thus the ideals of the Jews pose no threat to them. Same with the Japanese. In many other cultures, however, where identity is not so secure and people do not wish to try to come to terms with a guilty conscience, it is another matter entirely.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Well, it isn't just what Mark Twain said. There is also something Chinese may have difficulty grasping, the fact that Jews represent - whether we want to or not - the moral standards espoused in the Torah and Talmud. In every age there have been Jews trying to live by its precepts. Since these include honest and responsible conduct of business affairs, personal relationships, and community matters by our example we have been seen as a natural enemy by the criminal, the corrupt, the immoral, and the irresponsible.

Yet Jewish communities world-wide have sought only to impose these standards among ourselves and dealings between Jews and non-Jews, never to saddle another community unwillingly with them. The Chinese are secure with their identity, thus the ideals of the Jews pose no threat to them. Same with the Japanese. In many other cultures, however, where identity is not so secure and people do not wish to try to come to terms with a guilty conscience, it is another matter entirely.

Yes, maybe I still do not know enough about the true history of the Jews, that is why I want the Jews to defense for their own. On the Jewish environment, it is not controversial in China, BBS. We have a great understanding and sympathy in this point.

I suddenly have some idea, ok, let me know more , and then say it.

 

[Solomon2]

I suddenly have some idea, ok, let me know more , and then say it.

When I wrote "honest and responsible conduct" the idea in the Torah and Talmud is that Jews be responsible to G-d. That was recognized as insufficient in practice, even in biblical times. Self-rule, monarchy, priestly or prophetic rule, existence as a Roman province - these all had their shortcomings and failed.

The great innovation of the West, democratic governance with minority rights, with its ability to make leaders responsible to the people, is what was seized upon by secular Zionists as their ideal, rather than the Torah (though modern religious Jews see democracy as compatible with Judaism.) Indeed, it is a wonder that these Zionist leaders, many born as penniless peasants in autocratic parts of Europe, elevated themselves to democratic leadership of a new independent state within a single generation. The model, essentially, was that of the New England town hall meeting, where the community holds their elected leaders responsible for their actions.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Well, in fact, Chinese believe that the so-called original sin of the Jews, Europe nobility more should be blamed, they are cheaper to use the Jews, and then throw them to comfort the people, incidentally, to confiscate the property of Jews, which is general view in bbs. But, you know, some Jews practice still do not make people like. Of course, that did not hear the defense by the Jews themselves.

I add some description.

We believe, ancient European nobility to use the Jews to borrow a lot of property, all the money into the pockets of the rulers of Europe, to satisfy their greed, the so-called Jews a bad reputation, the European rulers need to pay really responsible. Although the Jews do have some behavior is not good enough, then the European common people very angry to Jews because of their own lives, because they usually and only be able to see the Jews, coupled with religious cultural background, in short, they are very angry, once rulers of Europe very happy to throw the Jews, so. to dispense with their debts, even to get other property of Jews.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Environment should be an important point, in general, against the Jews of Europe to engage in politics, agriculture and handicrafts in the Middle Ages, the Jews can only engage in business, while the Jews attached great importance to education, because the other can be deprived of, but the knowledge of the total in the side, so that also means that Jews are usually successful as a businessman, coupled with Jews are always discriminated against by the outside world, an internal unity is the great need for survival. so that a united and intelligent active in the business for the nation hundreds of years, this has always been a great or terrible things. Europeans themselves to creating such a nation, this is the realization of self-prophecy.

The other side of the coin, there is a saying in ancient China, "no business is not evil," meaning that all businessmen are dishonest and greedy. Several hundred years, it is sufficient to create a national character of business, it may mean that there are some deep negative stuff in there.

Let us look at the Jews in China, the ancient Chinese Jews came to China during the Han Dynasty or Song Dynasty. But no matter what time, the Jews have not been banned in any industry, to participate in China's imperial examinations, many of them became official. Because there is no centralized limited to one area in the business, they must not have any particular reputation such as greed, their successful integration into the Chinese society, and even assimilation and other nationalities, although there are occasional floods factors



Some my immature mind, just sharing.

 

[huzihaidao12]

When I wrote "honest and responsible conduct" the idea in the Torah and Talmud is that Jews be responsible to G-d. That was recognized as insufficient in practice, even in biblical times. Self-rule, monarchy, priestly or prophetic rule, existence as a Roman province - these all had their shortcomings and failed.

The great innovation of the West, democratic governance with minority rights, with its ability to make leaders responsible to the people, is what was seized upon by secular Zionists as their ideal, rather than the Torah (though modern religious Jews see democracy as compatible with Judaism.) Indeed, it is a wonder that these Zionist leaders, many born as penniless peasants in autocratic parts of Europe, elevated themselves to democratic leadership of a new independent state within a single generation. The model, essentially, was that of the New England town hall meeting, where the community holds their elected leaders responsible for their actions.

I have been thinking, the rise of the U.S. black civil rights movement after the war, I think there may be Jewish support in the back, even if the end of World War II, deep cultural and religious discrimination against the Jews still exist. How to deal with, the Jews chose a good way , albeit a circuitous route, the Jews are very active in civil rights, liberalism in a long time after the war and that is not without reason, because the Jews are still worried about their fate, so a larger flag to the front, both to meet the interests of Jews, sir, since others the right to be protected, then the Jews have the right to be protected, this is a good way to combat deep religious from religious culture, and in this way that is no visible. Jews are really smart at this point.

 

[nirreich]

About whether those Palestinians were expelled, I hardly believe they would throw everything away if there were no violence against them. I do not think it is true that "No one stole anything from the Palestinians".

Otherwise, Israel would have already allowed those fled Palestinians to come back to claim what are theirs.

About "Most of the Palestinians who did not flee continue to live in their homes.", I do not think that is true either. If most of them stayed, how could there are millions of Palestinian refuges?

Both sides need face the reality and there is no need to paint the past otherwise.

As I said, most of the Palestinians fled beacause they were in the battle zone or under the instructions of their leaders. The one who did not fled, most of them, continued to live in their homes. That does not mean there not any deportations -there were,by both sides.

The Palestinians refugees cannot come back because Israel received more than a million Jewes in 1949-1950 who were forced to flee from Arab countries. Most of them were hosed in the deserted homes of the refugees. Futhermore, Israel had to receive hundred of thousands of Holocust survivors.

 

[nirreich]

Yadi yadi yadi... there was no such thing as the Nakba right??

Yes there was, and the Palestinians can blame only themselves. If they did not brutally attacked the Jewish communities and accepted the partition plan in 1947 all their refugees would be still living in their previous homes. Now the Palestinians pay the price for their murderous attampt to detroy Israel.

 

[EagleOne]

To even exist as a state, Israel will have to be heavy handed in its struggle for existence as a nation. Its not palestine that is the problem, its the active jihad waged indirectly by oil rich countries in the mid-west using palestine as a cause. I see the war continuing forward into the foreseeable future or atleast until Oil is deposed as the primary fuel source for industrial growth.

 

[modern_newton]

You are not getting the point.

Most of the Palestinians were not expelled, but fled in 1947-1948. No one stole anything from the Palestinians. Before 1947 the lands for Jewish settlements were bought from the Arabs, and after 1948 the Jews came to live in deserted Arab town and villages. Most of the Palestinians who did not flee continue to live in their homes.

You should know that if Hamas says so, most probably it is a lie. Maybe its terrorists believe it, but it is still a lie.

You are ready to justify intentional terror attacks against civilians, including innocent women and children as a legitimate mean for returning 'stolen land'. You do not see any problem to justify a barbaric terror organisation who advocates Nazi ideology.

If the Palestinians would follow your advice to fight against Israel without any compromise, they would continue to dwell in misery. They did that mistake in 1947, 1967, and 2000. Eventually the would be left with nothing.

You know you guys will never reach at any solution until you realize that Israel violated the rights of Palestinians. All Jews here are trying to prove themselves completely innocent while putting all blame on opposite side. Its true that nationalism make us blind

You only see the terrorism of Hamas but i do see the terrorism of Israel as well which killed more innocent peoples, women and children. Israel used much more destructive and advanced weapons for terrorism. If Hamas killed one innocent people in Israel then Israel killed 100 Palestinians with their advance missiles

Why you don't realize that Hamas did not appear in a total vacuum, but rather as a reaction to the continued, long standing abuse of Palestinians by Israel. If Israel is successful in destroying Hamas, the likelihood is that Hamas would be replaced by even more radical groups. Israel clearly holds the upper hand and most of the cards. Repeatedly, Israeli leaders have reneged on agreements for lasting peace with the Palestinians, so why should Palestinians trust anything that Israel says or does?

 

[Solomon2]

You know you guys will never reach at any solution until you realize that Israel violated the rights of Palestinians. All Jews here are trying to prove themselves completely innocent while putting all blame on opposite side. Its true that nationalism make us blind

That would be a lie. You are asserting it is true using the "nationalism makes us blind" argument - i.e., every nation is equally good or equally bad.

That is facetious. Consider your local maximum-security prison. Do you consider yourself and your community to be equally good or bad as the hardened murderers, kidnappers, etc. who are incarcerated inside? Of course not. And where there is one example, why not others? A blind assertion of equality is just that - blind.

It would be another, easier, matter if the Jews of Israel actually were guilty of the many crimes attributed to them. But that didn't happen. Arabs throughout the middle east certainly violated the rights of the Jews in their communities - peaceable Jewish citizens compelled to leave without compensation starting after WWI, in defiance of the Caliph's wishes in the Treaty of Sevres - but this can't be compared to Israel's limited expulsions of those Arabs (Lod was the largest example in Benny Morris' book, if I recall correctly) who chose to side with the terror, explaining to Ben-Gurion that it was better to oppose the Jews and live rather than die by the guns of the Arab Legion. The Ottomans would never have considered that a population in armed revolt preserved its civil rights.

No, Newton. The Jews weren't "bad" and didn't violate the "rights" of the Palestinian Arabs. All arguments by the Arabs evaporate under the sunshine of fact - that's why "collaborators" with Israel are continually threatened with death. So all you are left with - all Pakistanis are left with - is the certain knowledge that they support injustice and ultimately genocide.

And if that is ever accomplished, what do you think is next? Contrition, or more efforts to bury guilt via slaughter and conquest?

How can Muslims ever elevate themselves as a people in G-d's eyes if they continue to pursue the Jews? Did it ever occur to you that if Jews have become morally superior to Muslims over the centuries, that points to a problem with Muslims' implementation of Islam, not the Jews? You know you'll never have another prophet, so don't you have to figure this out yourself?

 

[NeutralCitizen]

Back 1967 Border the rest Palestinians decide anyway it doesn't really matter September a vote for a Palestinian state will come if the US trys to VETO the Pals will use Uniting for Peace res to bypass it.