Islamophobic vote in Netherlands elections.

[Solomon2]

I'll let you know this has been an unclear issue for me ever since I recently heard that the concept of love for the watan (homeland, birthplace) exists in Islam too. But I'll give you the established answer:

As a Muslim I do not believe in race or nationhood. I was put on this planet as a human. Say for a moment the world identifies me as a Saudi Arabian. But I'll have no affiliation to Saudi Arabia, except that circumstances force me to stay within a framework (the Saudi Arabian constitution) and I...acquiesce. And not plot against Saudi Arabia (at least, the at-most part is fuzzy in my mind).

Other than this, I won't adhere to the idea of a nation-state. And yes, this is as you say, a problem. Not huge though, since at worst I'd only remain neutral and not engage in the affairs of my country/state.

All this said, the above is the utopian picture, and almost nobody is able to absolve themselves of the shackles of race, nationality, colour etc. But they don't try either!

Been nice talking philosophy Sir.

Pacifist, you may want to study Albert Einstein a bit; at one time he thought much as you do, though that did not stop him from denouncing German aggression in World War I.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

Originally Posted by FreekiN
You are correct, in Sharia-dominant countries, those who leave Islam are killed.

And

In Pakistan blasphemy laws can be used against minorities right?

@FreekiN, I'm afraid you're talking without sufficient knowledge. For a precedence of not killing apostates refer to Hazrat 3umar's letter to Hazrat Khaalid bin Waliid. wallahu 3aalim.

The logic is, asI understood the issue, once The Law is established, and you have sworn allegiance to it, you're part of the Global Islaamic State. Now if you abandon the state (e.g by refusing to pay your tax), the State hunts you down and like our immune system, corrects this punctual aberration before it could spread to others.


@Ras, unfortunately yes. And unfortunately OFTENTIMES the religious-reference in the incident is only a cover for personal gain or vendetta resolution, and is misrepresented in news.

 

[Ras]

I'll let you know this has been an unclear issue for me ever since I recently heard that the concept of love for the watan (homeland, birthplace) exists in Islam too. But I'll give you the established answer:

As a Muslim I do not believe in race or nationhood. I was put on this planet as a human. Say for a moment the world identifies me as a Saudi Arabian. But I'll have no affiliation to Saudi Arabia, except that circumstances force me to stay within a framework (the Saudi Arabian constitution) and I...acquiesce. And not plot against Saudi Arabia (at least, the at-most part is fuzzy in my mind).

Other than this, I won't adhere to the idea of a nation-state. And yes, this is as you say, a problem. Not huge though, since at worst I'd only remain neutral and not engage in the affairs of my country/state.

All this said, the above is the utopian picture, and almost nobody is able to absolve themselves of the shackles of race, nationality, colour etc. But they don't try either!

Been nice talking philosophy Sir.

But how can it not be a huge problem...consider the recent protest against British soldiers by British Muslims. It is traitorous and as I said the whole concept of the modern nation state is wasted if the first and unquestioned loyalty is not to the state.

Frankly it is no surprise the muslim youth in non-muslim countries are confused.

 

[mikkix]

The Holocaust is not "holy" to Jews, but an act of mass murder that fell on the Jewish people. The Dutch ban on Holocaust Denial doesn't exist because of pressure from the Jewish community, but as a Dutch expression of freedom from a tyranny that would deny its own crimes in an attempt to drown out the voice of truth.

Do you stand with tyrants, mikkix?

no i m not..
but do you think worldly affairs are more important then holy???
My question is very simple are rules are set only by the west or west can implement such rules relating to the eastern societies...
My answer is same for your reply of dutch expression of freedom..
We can not allow any one to use bad words against anyone whether it is Jesus, Moses or Muhammad (PBUT)...
If someone thought that those ideologies have some problems so he can engaged with the dialogues but dont use harsh words cause it hurts spiritual feelings of so many where spiritual life is more important than materialistic happiness..

 

[mikkix]

But how can it not be a huge problem...consider the recent protest against British soldiers by British Muslims. It is traitorous and as I said the whole concept of the modern nation state is wasted if the first and unquestioned loyalty is not to the state.

Frankly it is no surprise the muslim youth in non-muslim countries are confused.

The most loyal factor should be the loyalty of justice whether it is against nation, religion or people..

 

[Icarus]

But how can it not be a huge problem...consider the recent protest against British soldiers by British Muslims. It is traitorous and as I said the whole concept of the modern nation state is wasted if the first and unquestioned loyalty is not to the state.

Frankly it is no surprise the muslim youth in non-muslim countries are confused.

I completely agree with you, those protests were shameful at best, calling veterans "War Criminals" who were fighting so these thankless idiots don't die in bomb blasts saddens me a great deal. You see the problem is that these people are bought over by cheap propaganda of a couple of media hungry fundamentalist organizations, I can break an extremist in less than two hours in a face to face discussion. Seriously, asking for Shariah in U.K ? that is ridiculous:
1) They are the true owners of this land and the Muslims should be comfortable with what they choose to live by.
2) No muslim country other than KSA practices Shariah, then why should non-muslim countries ?
Honestly, the problem with these guys isn't that they are too involved in Islam, it's that they don't know enough about it and believe any half truth a man with a beard and a skull cap preaches to them.
I have had proper religious education yet I don't justify killing, I am friends with at least a dozen Pakistani Christians, when I was in the U.K I used to go to the pub with my friends when they wanted(though I didn't consume alcohol, just a coke), just because you are muslim, doesn't mean you have to take the path that goes against the rest of the world.

 

[Ras]

I completely agree with you, those protests were shameful at best, calling veterans "War Criminals" who were fighting so these thankless idiots don't die in bomb blasts saddens me a great deal. You see the problem is that these people are bought over by cheap propaganda of a couple of media hungry fundamentalist organizations, I can break an extremist in less than two hours in a face to face discussion. Seriously, asking for Shariah in U.K ? that is ridiculous:
1) They are the true owners of this land and the Muslims should be comfortable with what they choose to live by.
2) No muslim country other than KSA practices Shariah, then why should non-muslim countries ?
Honestly, the problem with these guys isn't that they are too involved in Islam, it's that they don't know enough about it and believe any half truth a man with a beard and a skull cap preaches to them.
I have had proper religious education yet I don't justify killing, I am friends with at least a dozen Pakistani Christians, when I was in the U.K I used to go to the pub with my friends when they wanted(though I didn't consume alcohol, just a coke), just because you are muslim, doesn't mean you have to take the path that goes against the rest of the world.

This is an interesting discussion.

But what you say goes against some Islamic teaching right..I heard this guy Chowdary(?) in UK and he said that the quran says that the whole world has to be under Shariah so if he does not agitate for it he is not fulfilling his duty. Any truth in that?

 

[EgO Boy]

I am no expert in Islamic law..but maybe some other knowledgeable posters here can answer. What is the first loyalty of a Muslim..is it to the nation or to the ummah. Because if it is to the ummah then there is a huge problem in every country where Muslims are in a minority because it goes against the whole idea of the nation state.

First loyalty of a muslim is his/her religion, which is ISLAM.

Every thing else is secondary.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

@Ras, post 123

Yes, the youth is confused, but the availability of knowledge and their (lack of) quest for it are at fault as well.

The British muslim protestors' demeanor is out of line with what is required of them. I apologize on their part, if it matters anything. But they were exercising their right of freedom of expression and of protest that Britain gave them, and despite sporting massive beards our youth remain oblivious of the obligations Islam puts on them towards the state.

The idea of the nation-state is artificial to humanity. Humanity is one, so Islam teaches us!

Frankly, these issues won't go away unless we treat Islam as competition to nationalism, to secularism, to capitalism and to democracy. We tend to relegate the issue to Islam vs Christianity or vs Judaism etc, which is hurting our comprehension, and will lead to bad judgment. Islam isn't a religion, it HAS a religion. Only when we put it in the right context, will we begin to resolve the issues. Laissez-faire to a problem only makes it linger on.

Yes sir, the disparity in the philosophies are this vast. But Islam does come with an interfacing scheme with other systems, which both muslims and not, tend to ignore.

 

[Ras]

First loyalty of a muslim is his/her religion, which is ISLAM.

Every thing else is secondary.

Then you just lost your rights to complain if any non-muslim country discriminates against you. Why should they treat you equally when your loyalty is somewhere else.

 

[Dr.Evil]

This is an interesting discussion.

But what you say goes against some Islamic teaching right..I heard this guy Chowdary(?) in UK and he said that the quran says that the whole world has to be under Shariah so if he does not agitate for it he is not fulfilling his duty. Any truth in that?

This guy Anjum chowdhary and his followers are nut cases, they would be better off in guntanamo Bay than in the UK.

They are a nuisance to all the people including muslims.

 

[Parashuram1]

Dear Ladies and gentlemen,

The point of this thread was to notify that Mr. Wilders had won in Netherlands and gained a lot of popularity. Without going directly into the haves and have nots of any religion, I'd like to simply point at the collection of pictures that are mentioned in this thread's pages of young men holding placards that have 'intolerance' painted on them all over. After taking a look at those, how do you think European or Dutch people in this case won't elect leaders like him who claim to have the very solution of their fear? Before launching yourself onto me like a hurricane, please assume yourself to be a non-Muslim European and think coolly from our perspective.

Geert won not because of a military coup or some religious fanatics taking over the government like today's Iran but by popular vote and an entirely transparent democratic process,where the citizens of Netherlands voted for him and a candidate with another agenda at hand troubling the country, stood for election. How and why do you think that happened? Have you considered the flip side of this story as a neutral person? if not, then now please do so.

As you can see in those pictures that I mentioned before about, it is those kinds of people that are the problem and sadly their proportion is increasing with respect to peaceful and tolerant lot in our countries. What becomes even more problematic are when families of such young men instead of teaching them tolerance and readiness to assimilate into their adopted countries, start encouraging them further into intolerance and fundamentalism due to their own ignorance of their faith and forgetting that religion is meant to bring peace with all humanity rather than establish some sort of lunatic theocracy.

Then these young men further get into the extremist philosophy ending up joining militant camps and working in sleeper cells of theirs in Western countries. But since they haven't led the severe, harsh and deprived lives of militants, they tend to be more comfort minded an at the time they're supposed to engage in some sort of terrorist activity, something goes wrong and the police finds these otherwise-perfectly mentally healthy young men and either arrest them or shoot them dead.

One such example in the latest series of militant hunt is Mr.Shehzad; a newly American-naturalized citizen of Pakistani origin with an educated background, a young and happy family and a clean record. Still ended up in the hands of terrorists. Even then there were a couple of threads where people were cursing the West instead of telling off youth who were considering such a path. If such is the case, How on earth do people of your community expect the Western world to take confidence in your assurances of peace?

Maybe one person or two people might take you respectfully but after multiple incidents of such activities throughout Europe, Asia, Americas and other regions happening, how on earth would someone be confident of an assured peace?

The military and special forces have equipment, materials and skills to spot the rotten apple from the good lot but how does a common Western man do? With thousands of such young men like Shehzad living in Western countries, how would anyone feel assured that they are not looking at a potentially dangerous person associated with a militant organization when they see a person of your community?

Please tell me.


We might continue arguing on such topics with people showing thousands of videos of people converting to Islam and others would show thousands of them leaving Islam as well for their personal reasons. This is not an evidence that people converting or not to some faith means it is the only valid solution.

This is what is human nature: difference of opinion and perspectives... and most importantly, change. Rigidity of any form is unacceptable to the human being whether it be religion or region or even language( as you'd note that a lot of world languages have changed in past centuries).

Both Muslims and non-Muslims with respect to this topic are aware as to who is to be blamed. Everything works on a cause and effect philosophy. The effect here is this word what you call 'islamophobia' but many people here except a few mature and understanding members fail to see the cause that has led to it. And that cause is: parents of immigrant muslim communities not teaching their children to adopt as much as possible to their new countries.

The blame is neither on religious nor ethnic: it is Social. Unless these parents, siblings and spouses take up the initiative to change, this cycle of action and hate will continue to ball up.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

..I heard this guy Chowdary(?) in UK and he said that the quran says that the whole world has to be under Shariah so if he does not agitate for it he is not fulfilling his duty. Any truth in that?

Much truth in that, but as much mal-comprehension (I suppose) on the gentleman's part. Has he exhausted ways like trying to effect a change of heart in the people, promoting and explaining Islam and exhibiting its strengths by example of character, that he is ready to 'agitate'. <- I'm afraid your choice of the word is wrong here, he must have said 'try, because that IS a duty on every muslim.

And that is why Islam is incongruent with everything else!

Understand this, Islam is a revolutionary mode de vivre. Revolutionary not strictly in the sense of coup d'état and blood flowing in the streets, revolutionary e.g. as in 'from darkness to light'.

...the whole world has to be under Shariah...

Wrong statement of his, or its wrong interpretation of yours. 'Has to be' is incorrect, there is this prediction: 'Will be'.

 

[EgO Boy]

For ure offer , thanks but no thanks.
i refuse ure offer.

You either have read the Quran, the sira and the hadith or you haven’t. If you haven’t, read them before preaching to others about how wonderful Islam is sitting high on your moral horse.If u have then answer this-
Do u know the Sharia is very clear about those who leave Islam. They must be killed. There is no ambiguity about this and all the schools of Islam agree on it. Do you agree with it too? Are you defending this law or are you against it? Are you willing to at least decry this Islamic law that calls for execution? Speak out boy. You can’t be this ignorant. I smell deception in you.
Muhammad raided many villages and after killing the unarmed men he took their children and wives as slaves. Did you know that? Of course you didn’t. You think I am making this up. Not so. The gruesome details of Muhammad’s ghazwas (raids) are recorded by early Muslim historians in detail. Read Tabari, Al Waqidi, Ibn Sa’d or Ibn Ishaq’s narrations of the life of Muhammad.
Muhammad made his huge wealth by killing thousands of unarmed people and stealing their wealth, but most of his wealth came from slave trading. Those slaves were free people before they became captives of the marauding gang of Muslims.
In his raids he would often keep young women who were pretty for himself. He would take them to bed in the same night that he killed their father, husband and male relatives.Rayhanah (15 years old), Safiyah (17 years old) and Juwairiyah (20 years old) were among these captives taken from the Jewish tribes of Bani Quraiza, Bani Nadir and Bani al Mustaliq. Muslims say Muhammad married them. Not so! He raped them. Prisoners of war do not have free will to accept or reject a marrige. In fact Rayhanah rejected to be wedded to the murder of her father and preferred to remain his sex slave. Kudos to her dignity.

U R LUCKY THAT U R ON THIS FORUM, HIDING BEHIND A INTERNET, THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY M****R F****R.

MOD'S IF U WANT TO BAN ME FOR THIS THAN GO AHEAD BUT I WONT APOLOGISE FOR SAYING THAT, NO WAY.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

Then you just lost your rights to complain if any non-muslim country discriminates against you. ...

We relinquish that right automatically upon declaring ourselves Muslim. But you're dealing with people. People don't always understand. People complain.

I still believe that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are just. And fighting back is just too. State systems are colliding (something that might've been avoided), and the strongest will win in the short run and the best ultimately.