Islamophobic vote in Netherlands elections.

[Hussein]

Where do you see me saying "I hate Muslims/Islam" ? I should be asking you why are you so anti-West despite living in the West.


However, the problem here is that while significant amount of members have accepted this as a consequence of their own community's immigrant people, some people still are in denial considering this as a personal attack instead of a social problem. Some even are going to the extent of labeling others as 'islamophobic'. You might want to re-check this thread on some people's comments here if you don't trust me.

Calling a spade as a spade doesn't mean xenophobia. If Buddhists or Atheists or any other community were indulging in similar matters as the ones raised by Wilders on the issue table, there would have been the same response from the people of Netherlands.

Otherwise, you tell me why would the Dutch people vote for Mr. Wilders? You do know the education level of people there and that no one would buy a rhetoric unless it is existent in some significant form.

Since you live in France, I assume that you are more familiar with the political setup of most European countries whether in the Union or not.

Then why do you have to ask me such an irrelevant question?

because in this forum you show your obsession about Islam and you say you like comments about keeping European civilization against "muslims" (like if any european would be for sure christian? lol )

Me anti West? I never showed anti Western

About nederlands i lived there 6 months a long time ago and some dutch people said me the leader is so stupid that he never gets more than 5% for sure!

About your comments about people vote for him so it is relevant and blabla. of course there is a part of truth.
Hitler as well was relevant because people clearly showed they liked him to show the Jews as the problem
In any country there is a monster always able to show off. In netherlands, in Iran, in Israel , in India , any country. We should work on keeping the monster away....
not working to give credit to these people

 

[Parashuram1]

because in this forum you show your obsession about Islam and you say you like comments about keeping European civilization against "muslims" (like if any european would be for sure christian? lol )

Me anti West? I never showed anti Western

About nederlands i lived there 6 months a long time ago and some dutch people said me the leader is so stupid that he never gets more than 5% for sure!

About your comments about people vote for him so it is relevant and blabla. of course there is a part of truth.
Hitler as well was relevant because people clearly showed they liked him to show the Jews as the problem
In any country there is a monster always able to show off. In netherlands, in Iran, in Israel , in India , any country. We should work on keeping the monster away....
not working to give credit to these people

because in this forum you show your obsession about Islam and you say you like comments about keeping European civilization against "muslims" (like if any european would be for sure christian? lol )

I am not concerned with what is written in religious books of any religion and none of the Europeans are because written texts are never honestly followed. The problem comes when people misinterpret them for their own convenience and make problems for host societies. Every community has a bunch of such people including mine and yours.

Me anti West? I never showed anti Western

About nederlands i lived there 6 months a long time ago and some dutch people said me the leader is so stupid that he never gets more than 5% for sure!

But you always aim the crosshairs at Western posters here and give the image that "West is against muslims" isn't it? What does this show?

The Dutch told you that and Geert still managed to win. It shows that either you misunderstood your Dutch friends or are implying that they are foolish.

About your comments about people vote for him so it is relevant and blabla. of course there is a part of truth.
Hitler as well was relevant because people clearly showed they liked him to show the Jews as the problem

You just don't want to accept the truth that this person has been chosen by people. Hitler was an absolute ruler who had complete control of the German military and those dissidents didn't have an option with him. Anyone against him would have never been heard of. Wilders has not even attained full power and already you're starting to silence him.

Since you mentioned Hitler, you should also know that there were dissident Germans who escaped Hitler and migrated to United States and other countries. They were typical of "blonde hair and blue eyes" and not Jews still opposed to Hitler who couldn't do anything to him in Germany. Wilders if not apt, would be simply removed from the office with a simple motion.

Still want to compare the two?

In any country there is a monster always able to show off. In netherlands, in Iran, in Israel , in India , any country. We should work on keeping the monster away....
not working to give credit to these people

He hasn't even started acting and you're already branding him as Hitler and what not! of course there are monsters in every societies. So far European members accept some of their monsters, Americans do but you are not. Wilders simply won because of a result of these monsters in your society. Eradicate them and people like Wilders can never come to power.

 

[Canaan]

I was away in SE asia and hence couldn't respond, but I see the thread is still open.

Before you decide to judge me and "put me in a certain category" I will enlighten you a bit about my stance.
I am a democrat, a liberal Muslim, a European and a social capitalist.
I don't cry wolf, use the victim card and cheap tricks as you and Paru insinuate.

Let's be real and just stick to and reflect upon what is really going on these days.
But first let's be clear about a couple of things.

There is a rise in anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe, even in countries where muslims don't constitute any large minority. This reflects the rise of anti-muslim sentiment in the world in general. One can see this via research, statistics and in the tone used in the public sphere.
The reason(s)? Many. The responsibility? Everyones. Right from the fundamentalists on both sides who spread hate, to politician's opportunistic behavior using the public's fear to win votes, to bad behavior from immigrants in their host countries, to ignorant locals who discriminate out of narrow-mindedness and bigotry, and finally the natural effect of globalization.

Muslims are not a homogeneous group that fit one label. This essential detail is typically lost in debates, and it seems you and Paru in one way or the other also end up forgetting this fact. The same thing applies to the difference between a Muslim by religion and one by mere cultural affiliation.
Why is it that a German who commits a crime isn't labeled a Christian?

Muslims are a minority in Europe and a perfect text book example of minority vs majority interaction in the field of sociology with all what follows of integration and the lack of it, social issues, conflicts etc.
Most muslim immigrants in europe come from war torn countries, or countries with huge problems and oppression some bringing with them asocial behavior, crime and social problems in to their new host countries. Many of these come from rural or underdeveloped areas where culture and honor rules are dominant.
A fact that can't be denied.

He is not 'singling out' anyone in his policy suggestions.

you live in denial sorry. The man himself states clearly he runs on an ANTI-MUSLIM agenda. Latest news is that he wants to spread his anti muslim movement westward to include five new countries. And you still say he doesn't single out muslims.
Geert Wilders to spread his anti-Muslim movement west | World news | The Guardian
You have to get better at reading between the lines, because as brazen as Wilders is, he will not play with open cards and must maneuver within the rule of law, therefore he will try and disguise his real agenda as to render it less extreme and more appealing.

Here's why Muslim immigrants are in the center of criticism though:
Muslims are the most numerous immigrants (in the Netherlands),
on statistical average they are also the least educated, the ones who burden the social systems the most and the ones who insist on special pleading the most times. That are simply statistical facts, many of them have numerous equivalents collected in other European countries.

Some statistics and surveys even show Muslim immigrants to be more prone to violence and antisemitism on average (These might be questionable, I have not looked into that in enough depth.)
But even with those factors none of the measures (although obviously some of the rhetoric) proposed, targets Muslim immigrants specifically (as opposed to other immigrants). The criticism is based on actual problems, not on trying to scapegoat a minority for general problems like the economy.

You seem to ignore the fact, that the social problems don't necessarily correlate with the immigrants' religious affiliation as much as it is a bi-product of many factors. I would challenge you to prove to me that all of the above, the crimes, the social problems etc stems out of Islam and not traditional sociological issues like polarization, segregation, rootlessness etc. Something you see all over the world where you have a society with a tense majority-minority relationship.

Comparing their situation to the Jews in 1930 is cheap and nonsensical and bringing it up adds to the point I raised in the previous post, not undermine it(catchwords victimizing themselves).

I merely drew parallels to the 1930s, not comparing it to it.
You can't deny the fact that the persecution of jews began merely verbally, escalating to laws that in the end were aimed at Jews exclusively. I only see an alarming tendency for that here in Europe. I might be wrong, but remember that these things don't happen over night and it all depends on how things evolve in the future.

You know my generation of Germans has about as much to do with the holocaust as yours from Palestine (they were involved as you might know, if you know your history).

This attempt isn't less "cheaper" than mine, why the double standard? "That generation from Palestine" was a single guy who allied himself with your country against Britain over political issues and nothing to do with Holocaust which was a German plan to exterminate a minority. I never said Germans today were responsible for what happened then and didn't place any responsibility. As mentioned before I only drew parallels to the chain of events that lead to the holocaust.

Read: Nothing whatsoever.
That doesn't mean we forgot, quit the opposite, we are reminded during our education numerous times and in gruesome detail, but don't try to shame or silence me by bringing it up...

That's good, but you defending Wilders, a person who calls Islam and muslims Fascists that need to be stopped, and you blaming muslims for the trouble doesn't really do it for me, and makes me wonder if you already forgot that dark chapter in your country's history.

See other than the Jews in 1930, who were a scapegoat, some percentage of Muslim immigrants actually forces open European societies via their behavior to become less open. They are the ones making it necessary to lower immigration rates, because some insist to stay in ghettos and some even want to enforce their own laws (and do in some areas of Britain, for example).

Assuming that's factually 100% correct, does it legitimize a generalization of an entire population?

You live in Denmark, don't tell me the government (of which a party similar to Wilders is part) is prosecuting you, is it? I'm not saying their isn't skepticism (and even some antagonism) against Muslims in parts of society, yes their is for a number of reasons, but I'm talking about the government here...

The Danish Peoples' party is attempting to pressure the government to implement and stricken laws that generally affect immigrants in general and muslims in particular, i.e. anti-burka law, even though nobody wears that here other than maybe 3 in the entire country, anti-minaret, law even though no minaret exists in the country, anti-veil law in public places, the forcing of serving pork in muslim majority kindergartens etc etc etc, this is a party that leads the anti-muslim agenda in Denmark, and jokes about getting rid of muslims by throwing them out of planes above their countries.

I hope I made my point here. I don't think that we muslims are innocent and clear of responsibility, by far, we have major hurdles and challenges, with ignorance and fundamentalism etc. But your nut cases are not helping at all, pouring gasoline into the fire and hence have a responsibility for this mess as well.

 

[Desert Fox]

I was away in SE asia and hence couldn't respond, but I see the thread is still open.

Before you decide to judge me and "put me in a certain category" I will enlighten you a bit about my stance.
I am a democrat, a liberal Muslim, a European and a social capitalist.
I don't cry wolf, use the victim card and cheap tricks as you and Paru insinuate.

Let's be real and just stick to and reflect upon what is really going on these days.
But first let's be clear about a couple of things.

There is a rise in anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe, even in countries where muslims don't constitute any large minority. This reflects the rise of anti-muslim sentiment in the world in general. One can see this via research, statistics and in the tone used in the public sphere.
The reason(s)? Many. The responsibility? Everyones. Right from the fundamentalists on both sides who spread hate, to politician's opportunistic behavior using the public's fear to win votes, to bad behavior from immigrants in their host countries, to ignorant locals who discriminate out of narrow-mindedness and bigotry, and finally the natural effect of globalization.

Muslims are not a homogeneous group that fit one label. This essential detail is typically lost in debates, and it seems you and Paru in one way or the other also end up forgetting this fact. The same thing applies to the difference between a Muslim by religion and one by mere cultural affiliation.
Why is it that a German who commits a crime isn't labeled a Christian?

Muslims are a minority in Europe and a perfect text book example of minority vs majority interaction in the field of sociology with all what follows of integration and the lack of it, social issues, conflicts etc.
Most muslim immigrants in europe come from war torn countries, or countries with huge problems and oppression some bringing with them asocial behavior, crime and social problems in to their new host countries. Many of these come from rural or underdeveloped areas where culture and honor rules are dominant.
A fact that can't be denied.

you live in denial sorry. The man himself states clearly he runs on an ANTI-MUSLIM agenda. Latest news is that he wants to spread his anti muslim movement westward to include five new countries. And you still say he doesn't single out muslims.
Geert Wilders to spread his anti-Muslim movement west | World news | The Guardian
You have to get better at reading between the lines, because as brazen as Wilders is, he will not play with open cards and must maneuver within the rule of law, therefore he will try and disguise his real agenda as to render it less extreme and more appealing.


You seem to ignore the fact, that the social problems don't necessarily correlate with the immigrants' religious affiliation as much as it is a bi-product of many factors. I would challenge you to prove to me that all of the above, the crimes, the social problems etc stems out of Islam and not traditional sociological issues like polarization, segregation, rootlessness etc. Something you see all over the world where you have a society with a tense majority-minority relationship.


I merely drew parallels to the 1930s, not comparing it to it.
You can't deny the fact that the persecution of jews began merely verbally, escalating to laws that in the end were aimed at Jews exclusively. I only see an alarming tendency for that here in Europe. I might be wrong, but remember that these things don't happen over night and it all depends on how things evolve in the future.


This attempt isn't less "cheaper" than mine, why the double standard? "That generation from Palestine" was a single guy who allied himself with your country against Britain over political issues and nothing to do with Holocaust which was a German plan to exterminate a minority. I never said Germans today were responsible for what happened then and didn't place any responsibility. As mentioned before I only drew parallels to the chain of events that lead to the holocaust.


That's good, but you defending Wilders, a person who calls Islam and muslims Fascists that need to be stopped, and you blaming muslims for the trouble doesn't really do it for me, and makes me wonder if you already forgot that dark chapter in your country's history.


Assuming that's factually 100% correct, does it legitimize a generalization of an entire population?


The Danish Peoples' party is attempting to pressure the government to implement and stricken laws that generally affect immigrants in general and muslims in particular, i.e. anti-burka law, even though nobody wears that here other than maybe 3 in the entire country, anti-minaret, law even though no minaret exists in the country, anti-veil law in public places, the forcing of serving pork in muslim majority kindergartens etc etc etc, this is a party that leads the anti-muslim agenda in Denmark, and jokes about getting rid of muslims by throwing them out of planes above their countries.

I hope I made my point here. I don't think that we muslims are innocent and clear of responsibility, by far, we have major hurdles and challenges, with ignorance and fundamentalism etc. But your nut cases are not helping at all, pouring gasoline into the fire and hence have a responsibility for this mess as well.

though i do agree with you brother on some of the points you made, however we Muslims are also at fault! We don't have sabr when we live abroad, and in some cases we justify horrible things in the name of religion:

Some Muslim immigrants admit their bias quite openly. An Islamic Mufti in Copenhagen sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are “asking for rape.” Apparently, he’s not the only one thinking this way. “It is not as wrong raping a Swedish girl as raping an Arab girl,” says Hamid. “The Swedish girl gets a lot of help afterwards, and she had probably ****** before, anyway. But the Arab girl will get problems with her family. For her, being raped is a source of shame. It is important that she retains her virginity until she marries.” It was no coincidence that it was a Swedish girl that was gang raped in Rissne – this becomes obvious from the discussion with Ali, Hamid, Abdallah and Richard. All four have disparaging views on Swedish girls, and think this attitude is common among young men with immigrant background. “It is far too easy to get a Swedish whore…… girl, I mean;” says Hamid, and laughs over his own choice of words. “Many immigrant boys have Swedish girlfriends when they are teenagers. But when they get married, they get a proper woman from their own culture who has never been with a boy. That’s what I am going to do. I don’t have too much respect for Swedish girls. I guess you can say they get ****** to pieces.”

here's the rest of the story: Muslim rape wave in Sweden

and here's more links:

Pan-European Arab Muslim Gang Rape Epidemic - IRIS Blog

15-year-old retarded Swedish girl raped by 2 Arabs | EUTimes.net

Its a shame that these people have destroyed the image of Islam, who the hell justifies rape in the name of religion? These people are willing to give threats and are willing to protest when cartoons of our prophet (pbuh) are made but why don't they protest when a bunch of thugs rape innocent girls in the name of Islam? Or is it okay to rape a non-Muslim girls because after all she's not a Muslim or an Arab!

And all these immigrants come to Europe as refuges to seek asylum from war torn MUSLIM countries and they start violating the laws of their host nation that has accepted them and protected them! Thanks to these savages Sweden is the most dangerous country in Europe!

If such a day comes when the Europeans will start kicking all these refuges out then i won't mind actually, they have every right to! If Europeans are "Islamophobic" then its not their fault, its the Muslims fault that we're not representing ourselves the right way!

 

[Canaan]

though i do agree with you brother on some of the points you made, however we Muslims are also at fault! We don't have sabr when we live abroad, and in some cases we justify horrible things in the name of religion:



here's the rest of the story: Muslim rape wave in Sweden

and here's more links:

Pan-European Arab Muslim Gang Rape Epidemic - IRIS Blog

15-year-old retarded Swedish girl raped by 2 Arabs | EUTimes.net

Its a shame that these people have destroyed the image of Islam, who the hell justifies rape in the name of religion? These people are willing to give threats and are willing to protest when cartoons of our prophet (pbuh) are made but why don't they protest when a bunch of thugs rape innocent girls in the name of Islam? Or is it okay to rape a non-Muslim girls because after all she's not a Muslim or an Arab!

And all these immigrants come to Europe as refuges to seek asylum from war torn MUSLIM countries and they start violating the laws of their host nation that has accepted them and protected them! Thanks to these savages Sweden is the most dangerous country in Europe!

If such a day comes when the Europeans will start kicking all these refuges out then i won't mind actually, they have every right to! If Europeans are "Islamophobic" then its not their fault, its the Muslims fault that we're not representing ourselves the right way!

YouTube - Violent muslim riots in Rosengård, Malmö, Sweden, December 2008

I assume you read the last part of my post brother
I am fully aware of the internal problems we have, and the major challenges we face, as this asocial behavior unfortunately is passed on to the next generation and at the same time destroying our religion from within. I am in no way excusing this behavior, on the contrary, you probably wouldn't find a harsher critic than me on these issues, and I deal with these kind of things on a regular bases through integration work etc. I have never imagined that someone who calls themselves muslims would spread hate and violence like we see these days. But as I am trying to clear up here, is that you can't judge one and a half billion muslims and the religion of Islam by the way a minority acts. Would it be productive to call the world's Christian population pedophiles and molesters because we are witnessing the uncovering of abuse scandals happening in churches?
My message is DIFFERENTIATEbetween criminals and rule abiding citizens, differentiate between integration and social issues on one side and religion on the other side.
I also call on muslims and immigrants who don't want to live a normal peaceful life in the West, to leave, as their actions are hurting ordinary people who want to make a living for themselves and their children and giving their people a bad name.

 

[Desert Fox]

I assume you read the last part of my post brother

Yes i have read the last part of your post brother, banning Burka isn't against Islam (Burka/Niqab has nothing to do with Islam, but more to do with Arab culture, correct me if i'm wrong), and i've seen Mosques without Minarets back in the USA! Minarets were used for Adhan back in the day when there were no loud speakers but today we have loud speakers! Minarets are okay in Muslim countries but they don't necessarily have to be in a non-Muslim country!

I am fully aware of the internal problems we have, and the major challenges we face, as this asocial behavior unfortunately is passed on to the next generation and at the same time destroying our religion from within. I am in no way excusing this behavior, on the contrary, you probably wouldn't find a harsher critic than me on these issues, and I deal with these kind of things on a regular bases through integration work etc.

Agreed

But as I am trying to clear up here, is that you can't judge one and a half billion muslims and the religion of Islam by the way a minority acts.

I completely agree with you brother, but the Europeans don't differentiate, they consider us all the same! Muslims don't condemn Suicide bombings or terrorism, why don't we protest when Al-Qaeda or TTP blow up Mosques in Pakistan? Why don't we protest when our own Muslims kill each other in the name of Islam? Why don't we protest when a Muslim boy rapes a non-Muslim girl but we're ready to kill our own daughters if they go out with a white Christian guy behind our back? Why the double standards? If indeed only a minority of Muslims are bad then why hasn't the Majority good come out and condemned them? For these reason non-Muslims make fun of us, mock us and insult us, because we give them the opportunity! You go to any Muslim country and unfortunately all you see is injustice, Muslims killing each other, Muslims selling each other out, Muslims cooperating with their own enemy against another Muslim! for these reasons nobody would want us in their country!

Would it be productive to call the world's Christian population pedophiles and molesters because we are witnessing the uncovering of abuse scandals happening in churches?

It wouldn't be productive but unlike Muslims, Christians actually condemn their own Christians when they do wrong while in our countries pedophilia is excused and not given any attention to and neither do our people condemn it, in Saudi Arabia an eight year old girl gets married to a 47-year-old man and no one does anything about it, she hasn't even reached puberty yet and on top of that the Judge won't even give her divorce!

My message is DIFFERENTIATEbetween criminals and rule abiding citizens, differentiate between integration and social issues on one side and religion on the other side.

Its not easy differentiating, especially since many Muslims justify harram things in the name of Islam, raping a girl is nowhere allowed in Islam, you can't force anyone against their will, and any kind of sexual activity or relationship with the opposite sex outside of marriage is harram, its Zina but yet these Muslims justify rape of non-Muslim girls because they are fair game and according to them its ok to do it!

I also call on muslims and immigrants who don't want to live a normal peaceful life in the West, to leave, as their actions are hurting ordinary people who want to make a living for themselves and their children and giving their people a bad name.

agree, they should leave, but the good Muslims should play their role in contributing to a positive image of ourselves and our religion, but sadly i don't thin that will happen anytime soon

 

[amit27]

Soldiers heckled during homecoming parade in Barking

Things like this dont help ethnic people.

 

[Desert Fox]

Soldiers heckled during homecoming parade in Barking

YouTube - Protesters Clash during Military Parade in Barking


Things like this dont help ethnic people.

i don't agree with the occupation of Afghanistan either, and eventually the west will lose the war in Afghanistan!

However i don't agree with what these Muslims are doing, instead of demanding Shariah they should respect the laws of the country they reside in! They have all the privileges and freedom to follow Islam and that too in a dominant Christian country!

 

[amit27]

i don't agree with the occupation of Afghanistan either, and eventually the west will lose the war in Afghanistan! They have all the privileges and freedom to follow Islam and that too in a dominant Christian country!

However i don't agree with what these Muslims are doing, instead of demanding Shariah they should respect the laws of the country they reside in!

I fully understand your point I actually took part like millions of others in the anti war demo in central london b4 the US led invasion of Iraq. But what these so called muslims are doing in this video is not right it will create more ethnic tensions in the long run.

 

[Desert Fox]

I fully understand your point I actually took part like millions of others in the anti war demo in central london b4 the US led invasion of Iraq.

i appreciate your and others support in those demos, but in a way it was a waste of your time, my people are un-thankful and don't deserve your sympathy!

But what these so called muslims are doing in this video is not right it will create more ethnic tensions in the long run.

Not all Muslims are bad, we just don't like these wars in our countries, and we condemn events like 7/7 or 9/11 and i can tell you many of us Muslims don't agree with those events and we're against the people who justify them and boast about it, its completely forbidden to kill innocent life no mater what religion they are from!

And regarding the ethnic tension in Britain and the whole of Europe, IMO its only going to get worse due to mass immigration, there is no solution to it, IMO multiculturism is a complete failure and it will destroy Europe!

 

[amit27]

i appreciate your and others support in those demos, but in a way it was a waste of your time, my people are un-thankful and don't deserve your sympathy!



Not all Muslims are bad, we just don't like these wars in our countries, and we condemn events like 7/7 or 9/11 and i can tell you many of us Muslims don't agree with those events and we're against the people who justify them and boast about it, its completely forbidden to kill innocent life no mater what religion they are from!

And regarding the ethnic tension in Britain and the whole of Europe, IMO its only going to get worse due to mass immigration, there is no solution to it, IMO multiculturism is a complete failure and it will destroy Europe!

What do u mean your people? it wasen't only muslims who marched it was millions of the british public and we did it as we were against the war full stop it effects our daily lives too like tax hikes and increase in oil price war is not cheap!

The British public demanded a referendum on the war in Iraq like in France but the UK goverment did not give us one hence we did a demo in central london we had our reasons to march nothing to do with your good self and your so called people.

I was for the war in afganistan as the taliban were evil and the afgan people were glad to see the back of them but the majority of the UK public were against the war in Iraq like me.


Actually im hindu and we have integrated very well in UK like many good muslims too but there is a minority muslim i say they are 1% who are hell bent in making problems in UK they are demanding sharia law, making hate speaches against jews, gays etc this gave rise to the EDL/BNP far right movement and u can see their website on their view about UK.

 

[sparrowhawk]

Overall Muslims are just about 2% of the EU population. Sure a few cities have large concentrations but overall 2% is nothing. Of this 2% 95% are not in any way extreme....so I think it is just an excuse they use to want to get rid of us...
especially in poor economic times -- people blame the 'outsider' first....it was the Jews before...now it is our turn!