Islamization of Jinnah.

[Dubious]

@Azlan Haider

What a shame ...
Did government took any action on it ? This shows when People lost morals , they don't care for dead one also. Dis-respecting dead ones is heinous crime.
I am not surprised if none of senior office got suspended and after 3-4 months again same thing will start.
With situation around, I can see government is not interested in this kind of issues where they don't see chance to earn, but people should make sure those scumbags never put their feet near it.

It is not "Isalmization" but decaying of morals....increase of disrespect for the dead and corruption for even letting such shit happen!

And no one out of "frustration" is going to do such things....it is pure degradation of morals! I cant believe you want to equate that to Islamization nor is it logical or have you simply gone blind with that word?

His grave was not spared because of the "frustration" in our society which is a logical outcome of the process of "Islamization" of Jinnah and Pakistan !!!

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Azlan Haider


It is not "Isalmization" but decaying of morals....increase of disrespect for the dead and corruption for even letting such shit happen!

Islamization has led to increased levels of frustration !!

 

[Dubious]

Islamization has led to increased levels of frustration !!

And what led to degradation of morals? because this is a question on morals and sick thinking...nothing to do with frustration...no one pulls down their pants due to frustration....

And if they are frustrated with Islamization, I dont see people doing that on some "mullah" 's grave....

 

[Leader]

1)There is absolutely no reference to a Department of Islamic Reconstruction in any of the official documents of the Government of Pakistan.

2)There is no reference to “Allama” Asad aka Lepold Weiss in Jinnah Papers. Jinnah never corresponded with him, never met him and never appointed him to anything. I have looked through Jinnah Papers as well Jinnah’s correspondence during this period. Even the Shamsul Hassan collection has no reference to this Allama Asad. There is absolutely no primary source evidence that shows this Allama as being associated with the Pakistan Government. How strange then that Jinnah who meticulously saved his correspondence forgot to mention this.(Yasser Hamdani)

3)Muhammad Asad himself has made no mention of any such details in his famous auto biography ; "Road to Mecca"
The Road to Mecca (book) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


All we find is : Asad in his book “Principles of State and Government in Islam” claims that he headed what seems to be an Islamic Reconstruction Department in West Punjab. Even if that were true, which would require confirmation, that does not connect Asad to Jinnah or the Central Pakistan Government.


Soon after his arrival in Lahore, Asad was called by Nawab of Mamdot, the first Chief Minister of Western Punjab who sought advice on the possible ideological contours of the new country. Asad suggested setting up of an organization to examine this issue. Mamdot agreed and thus he came to design, set up and head the Department of Islamic Reconstruction. Explaining the aims and objectives of the Department in an interview broadcast over Radio Pakistan in October 1947, Asad observed that it was the only government department of its time anywhere in the Muslim world to carry the word ‘Islamic’ in its title. He added, “All that we are expected to do – all that we can legitimately do – is to help the community to co-ordinate its spiritual and intellectual resources and to revive the moral strength of which the Millat must be capable by virtue of its being the Millat of Islam; in other words to help the Millat to re-create the Islamic atmosphere so necessary for a revival of Islamic life in its practical aspects.”

A few weeks later the Chief Minister asked him to draw up a Memorandum on the lines of his article Towards Islamic Constitution which would be published by the government of Punjab and may come to the notice of the Central government.The Memorandum was soon written and published. It generated sufficient interest in the capital city that led to Asad being called to Karachi to meet with Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan who advised him to write in more detail on the subject of Islamic Constitution.
Muhammad Asad: The Story of a Story of a Story | Criterion

So saying that Jinnah himself set up a department of Islamic reconstruction and appointed Muhammad Asad as its head , is nothing more than a blatant lie , concocted by pathological liars like Orya Maqbool Jan ..

What our great scholar , Jinab Orya Sahib , apparently failed to realize (while desperately trying to "Islamize" Jinnah) is :

1) Muhammad Asad, accepted Islam on the hands of Maulana Sadar Ud Din, Imam of Berlin Mosque, Germany, run by Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement. His name is still written in the registers of converts to Islam.

2)His main focus was on the primacy of Quran over any all other sources such as Hadith and Sunna as he felt that Quran had been over-ruled by secondary sources. He did not believe in second coming of Jesus for example!!

So if Jinnah appointed such a man as head of Islamic Reconstruction Department , We can clearly judge Jinnah`s understanding of Islam !! Hope you get the point

How ironic is our dilemma as a country? We abuse and insult Zafrullah Khan, a man who Jinnah appointed as Pakistan’s first representative to the UN, Pakistan’s first foreign minister and Pakistan’s lawyer before the boundary commission but are willing to latch on to the most tenuous of claims by some Jewish convert to Islam of having been head of some provincial department, if at all. Muhammad Asad disliked Zafarullah as he was denied a permission to marry a polish lady by Ministry of Foreign affairs (Zafarullah was the foreign minister) . @asad71

your own compiled piece is confusing, at one point you are suggesting it to be a lie, on the other you're judging Jinnah if he had appointed such a man Jew convert to ahmadiya. we have already discussed what kind of views Jinnah had, try to accept sensibility.. just because you have become a secular, doesnot mean that you like mullahs be dishonest to paint your version on to Jinnah.

I maybe mistaken but I have read about this department somewhere before, its just that when Sir @asad71 brought it up, it clicked me that I knew about it... I dont really recall from where, but definitely I did.

 

[M. Sarmad]

And no one out of "frustration" is going to do such things...

Such actions are done out of frustration , not mental sickness

And if they are frustrated with Islamization, I dont see people doing that on some "mullah" 's grave....

Those frustrated with "over Islamization" do not need graves , those pedophiles have their Madrassahs for this

And what led to degradation of morals?

Now that is a totally different discussion

your own compiled piece is confusing, at one point you are suggesting it to be a lie, on the other you're judging Jinnah if he had appointed such a man Jew convert to ahmadiya. we have already discussed what kind of views Jinnah had, try to accept sensibility.. just because you have become a secular, doesnot mean that you like mullahs be dishonest to paint your version on to Jinnah.

I maybe mistaken but I have read about this department somewhere before, its just that when Sir @asad71 brought it up, it clicked me that I knew about it... I dont really recall from where, but definitely I did.

It is not confusing at all my friend .This "Jinnah establishing a Islamic department himself and appointing Mr. Asad his head" episode is a plain lie . And the second part starts with "IF" !! Even if it were true , It does not prove what Conservatives want to say . Hope you get it now !!

 

[Dubious]

Such actions are done out of frustration , not mental sickness

Are you telling me doing such things is somehow releasing frustrations about Islamization?

Those frustrated with "over Islamization" do not need graves , those pedophiles have their Madrassahs for this

I think you are damn confused...those frustrated with Islamization are not pedophiles nor would they be going to madrassahs...

Now that is a totally different discussion

No it is not...the thing that happened was solely due to degradation of moral issues and disrespect! Plus corruption on the part of the gaurds who allowed it...Nothing else!

 

[Leader]

It is not confusing at all my friend . It is a plain lie . And the second part starts with "IF" !! Even if it were true , It does not prove what Conservatives want to say . Hope you get it now !!

and I dont rule out cause I said I have read it before myself and not from these men.

secondly, even if that was untrue. the neo-liberals are blatant liars as well, for all they argue is to fit Jinnah's vision to their ideology= secularism.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Are you telling me doing such things is somehow releasing frustrations about Islamization?

I think you are damn confused...those frustrated with Islamization are not pedophiles nor would they be going to madrassahs...

Islamization of the society has frustrated ordinary people as well as Mullahs . Read the previous posts again and try to understand that what I have said instead of making assumptions of your own

 

[Dubious]

So when morals are degraded what do people do?

Islamization of the society has frustrated ordinary people as well as Mullahs . Read the previous posts again and try to understand that what I have said instead of making assumptions of your own

What you have done is simply painted Islamization colours on everything ....moral degradation is its own issue which you are somehow avoiding!

 

[M. Sarmad]

and I dont rule out cause I said I have read it before myself and not from these men.

secondly, even if that was untrue. the neo-liberals are blatant liars as well, for all they argue is to fit Jinnah's vision to their ideology= secularism.

If you have read it then kindly share your sources so we may discuss them further , bring some proof or refute my claim that "Jinnah himself did not set up any Islamic Department and appoint M Asad its head " .

Also bring your proof that Neo Liberals too are blatant liars like Mullahs . And if you can`t , then it is your personal opinion only which carries no academic significance my friend

 

[Jaanbaz]

We need Ataturk in Pakistan. I wish we had someone like him now.

We need Ataturk in Pakistan. I wish we had someone like him now.

 

[Aamna14]

@Aamna14
And which of the verses below do pure Pakistani pious muslims disregard. Will you now declare yourself kafir, please? In view of being balance and all.

"The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had Passed away before him." (Holy Qur'an, Chapter 5, verse 76)

"And Muhammad is but a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he dies or is slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful." (Holy Qur'an, Chapter 3, verse 145)

The Muslims claim that in order to save Jesus from the Jews, Allah made someone else (possibly Judas) to appear like Jesus and go on the cross and then die. Whilst this was happening, Allah raised Jesus to Himself and kept him alive in heaven until the Latter Days when Jesus will descend!

Again this belief goes against the Holy Qur’an! Allah has stated in the Holy Quran that there is no person who can return physically from Heaven:

"...And behind them is a barrier (Barzakh) until the Day when they shall be raised again" (Holy Qur'an, Chapter 23, verse 101)
"...Or thou [Muhammad] ascend up into heaven, and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a Book that we can read. Say, "Holy is my Lord! I am but a man sent as a Messenger?” (Holy Qur'an, Chapter 17, verse 94)

​

Thats called deliberate manipulation lol. You deliberately missed the context. First correct yourself the verse is indeed from Chapter 23 but not 101 in fact its 100. Secondly the context goes something like this:

"Until, when death cometh unto one of them, he saith: My Lord! Send me back, (99) That I may do right in that which I have left behind! But nay! It is but a word that he speaketh; and behind them is a barrier until the day when they are raised". (100) Chapter 23

So you can clearly see that Its referring to one's deathbed. And the man in question wants to return back to correct his sins for which the word Barzakh is mentioned that one can't go back. There are several places in the Quran which say Allah can do everything but it doesn't mean He would do them. He does what He indeed wishes to. Thats the difference.

Finality of the Prophet:

"Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things". (40) Chapter 33

The rest God alone knows best.
And please if you want to prove things through Quran do so with respect otherwise it doesn't work your cause and it isn't worth a reply.

 

[asad71]

1.The simple question is: if Jinnah was a secularist then why would he spearhead a movement for the creation of a separate home for the Muslims? Here we ought to be careful in understanding the meaning and manifestations of secularism which was initiated by European free thinkers in the 19th century as a political philosophy.
2.Of course Jinnah believed in democracy;and he showed us that it is well enshrined in the spirit of Islam.

 

[scorpionx]

1.The simple question is: if Jinnah was a secularist then why would he spearhead a movement for the creation of a separate home for the Muslims? Here we ought to be careful in understanding the meaning and manifestations of secularism which was initiated by European free thinkers in the 19th century as a political philosophy.

The answer lies in his entire political career, more specifically right from 1915 to 1946.

 

[Leader]

If you have read it then kindly share your sources so we may discuss them further , bring some proof or refute my claim that "Jinnah himself did not set up any Islamic Department and appoint M Asad its head " .

Also bring your proof that Neo Liberals too are blatant liars like Mullahs . And if you can`t , then it is your personal opinion only which carries no academic significance my friend

You are talking the discussion towards trust issue. All I said that I have heard of this department as soon as Sir @asad71 shared it. I didnt know the credentials backing it. but I have read it, I dont remember from where and when.

Like even if its not true, it doesnot mean that neo-liberals are right, as they do is cosmetic the saying of Jinnah to their ideology, claiming it to be true. which itself is a proof that its not true wholisically.. all they come up with is 11 August speech and refute everything else as "nothing".. to be judge one must begun with being honest, which these people neo-liberals/mullahs are not !