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Islamization of Jinnah.

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No, I find it hard to agree with someone with preconceived notions regarding something they have no clue about yet dare to name call others. With that kind of an attitude you would surely find mine difficult to handle.

So to understand your angry outburts, are you saying Dhimmis and muslims have same rights? Or that a non muslim can be pakistan's president under pakistani constitution? Or that a woman's testimony carries less weight than a man's under sharia???

I thought so.


This is for the Pakistanis to figure out. Your opinion about this is just an opinion of a foreigner which has no value at all.

Agreed 100% percent. I was only correcting factual inaccuracies in her blanket statement about equality under sharia and pakistani constitution. I'm sure you agree that her arguments based on inaccurate assertions will not help pakistanis figure anything out...
 
So to understand your angry outburts, are you saying Dhimmis and muslims have same rights? Or that a non muslim can be pakistan's president under pakistani constitution? Or that a woman's testimony carries less weight than a man's under sharia???

I thought so.

Angry outbursts?? Are you deluded?? Just because I told you I won't have your nonsense means its an angry outburst?? No, It means that I refuse to engage in a discussion with a person who doesn't have the basic manners required to conduct one. Your posts had nothing of substance in them except name calling and mere suppositions.
 
Angry outbursts?? Are you deluded?? Just because I told you I won't have your nonsense means its an angry outburst?? No, It means that I refuse to engage in a discussion with a person who doesn't have the basic manners required to conduct one. Your posts had nothing of substance in them except name calling and mere suppositions.

Your refusal to acknowledge obvious factual inaccuracies in your lofty assertions is noted.
 
@Aamna14
And which of the verses below do pure Pakistani pious muslims disregard. Will you now declare yourself kafir, please? In view of being balance and all.

"The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had Passed away before him." (Holy Qur'an, Chapter 5, verse 76)

"And Muhammad is but a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he dies or is slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful." (Holy Qur'an, Chapter 3, verse 145)


The Muslims claim that in order to save Jesus from the Jews, Allah made someone else (possibly Judas) to appear like Jesus and go on the cross and then die. Whilst this was happening, Allah raised Jesus to Himself and kept him alive in heaven until the Latter Days when Jesus will descend!

Again this belief goes against the Holy Qur’an! Allah has stated in the Holy Quran that there is no person who can return physically from Heaven:

"...And behind them is a barrier (Barzakh) until the Day when they shall be raised again" (Holy Qur'an, Chapter 23, verse 101)
"...Or thou [Muhammad] ascend up into heaven, and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a Book that we can read. Say, "Holy is my Lord! I am but a man sent as a Messenger?” (Holy Qur'an, Chapter 17, verse 94)
 
You are wrong brother, Jinnah was not secular for the cause of Pakistan..he never ever mentioned the word secular during Pakistan movement, we are the only nation-state in Muslim world who fought their way to independence...it would be unjust to his vision to associate it with secularism, cause he believed in Islamic values and propagated so and so as well during the whole movement... in short he wanted an Islamic socialist state, he believed we as muslims never needed to turn to secularism, our Islamic values are good enough to manage a state without any sort of discrimination on the basis of caste colour, creed or religious beliefs..

the problem is did we uphold to his vision and followed, my understanding is that except for the objectives' resolution which is magna carta of Pakistan's constitution, rest of our "reforms" make us look like a theocratic state, which Jinnah clearly ruled out as an option.

If we had followed the path of Objective's resolution and not bowed to Mullahism, we might have had taken a better path in our national life. instead modernists shrinked to the point of not being noticed.. while extreme neo-liberals/anti-religion and mullahism started to take our country for ride.. therefore, as a nation to follow Jinnah's vision, moderates must step up and own political Islam for the benefit of the society and take away the right from mullahs and neo-liberals to define what values Islam preach !



Sir care to share if you have them?
Its your country and,as i said i'm not a Pakistani but from what i have read about Quaid e Azam M.A.Jinnah his quotes the people he admired,there is no other conclusion for me(personal opinion).
I'll leave it at that.
 
Its your country and,as i said i'm not a Pakistani but from what i have read about Quaid e Azam M.A.Jinnah his quotes the people he admired,there is no other conclusion for me(personal opinion).
I'll leave it at that.

dude have u noticed u have missed out 3 numbers in your name

strange isn't it?

i learned counting seeing your name
 
Its your country and,as i said i'm not a Pakistani but from what i have read about Quaid e Azam M.A.Jinnah his quotes the people he admired,there is no other conclusion for me(personal opinion).
I'll leave it at that.

Seems you missed out his two nation theory.
 
Seems you missed out his two nation theory.

Look buddy, Jinnah first and farmost is a smart politician, secular or not his all upbringing made in a secular environment no doubt about it.

First, he tries his best to secure the rights of Muslims of the subcontinent in a United India by demanding states/provinces full rights of any legislations and independence so that people of Punjab, Sindh, NWFP & Bengal where Muslims are in majority feel comfortable as per their own laws but that demand outrightly rejected by the Hindu majority congress so like any other smart politician he opted to go For Pakistan and achieved it thunderously.
 
Its your country and,as i said i'm not a Pakistani but from what i have read about Quaid e Azam M.A.Jinnah his quotes the people he admired,there is no other conclusion for me(personal opinion).
I'll leave it at that.

Listen to some of his speeches... you cannot let yourself become victim of propaganda by neo-liberals and anti-Islam forces...

The Final Victory, I Once Again Say Will Be Ours. Jinnah by youngnights on SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds

If we take our inspiration and guidance from the holy Quran, the final victory I once again say will be ours. Viva La Pakistan, Viva La Pakistan, Takbir... Allah ho Akbar, viva La Paksitan, Viva La Quaid-e-Azam(Jinnah), Viva La Pakistan..

Equality,brotherhood,fraternity of man,r all the basic point of our religion, culture & civilization by youngnights on SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds

you are only voicing my sentiments and sentiments of millions of musalmans, when you say that Pakistan should be based on pure foundation of social justice and Islamic socialism, not other ism. Brotherhood, equality fraternity of man, these are the all the basic point of our religion, culture and civilization and we fought for Pakistan, because there was danger of denial of these human rights in the subcontinent, after all the story of Pakistan and its very struggle and its achievement is the story of great human ideals, struggling to survive in the face of odds and difficulties.


Jinnah; Let us now plan to build Pakistan by youngnights on SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds
We have achieved our cherish goal of Freedom. Jinnah by youngnights on SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds

p.s. dont listen to these neo-liberals and mullahs, both degrade the stature of Jinnah, Jinnah was the greatest Muslim born in 20th century... he may not be the muslim by looks, but he was definitely a momin by character !
 
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Listen to some of his speeches... you cannot let yourself become victim of propaganda by neo-liberals and anti-Islam forces...

The Final Victory, I Once Again Say Will Be Ours. Jinnah by youngnights on SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds

If we take our inspiration and guidance from the holy Quran, the final victory I once again say will be ours. Viva La Pakistan, Viva La Pakistan, Takbir... Allah ho Akbar, viva La Paksitan, Viva La Quaid-e-Azam(Jinnah), Viva La Pakistan..

Equality,brotherhood,fraternity of man,r all the basic point of our religion, culture & civilization by youngnights on SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds

you are only voicing my sentiments and sentiments of millions of musalmans, when you say that Pakistan should be based on pure foundation of social justice and Islamic socialism, not other ism. Brotherhood, equality fraternity of man, these are the all the basic point of our religion, culture and civilization and we fought for Pakistan, because there was danger of denial of these human rights in the subcontinent, after all the story of Pakistan and its very struggle and its achievement is the story of great human ideals, struggling to survive in the face of odds and difficulties.


Jinnah; Let us now plan to build Pakistan by youngnights on SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds
We have achieved our cherish goal of Freedom. Jinnah by youngnights on SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds

p.s. dont listen to these neo-liberals and mullahs, both degrade the stature of Jinnah, Jinnah was the greatest Muslim born in 20th century... he may not be the muslim by looks, but he was definitely a momin by character !
I have read some speeches to;
On 11th August 1947, Jinnah stood up to speak as the first president of the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, it was after Kiran Shankar Roy, a Congress stalwart and a member of the PCA from Bengal, had spoken. Roy had – after congratulating Jinnah asked him to make a clear pronouncement on whether Pakistan would be a secular or an Islamic state. Jinnah in response gave what was the clearest pronouncement of secularism by any leader or statesman in all of history. After observing that the first responsibility of any state was to maintain law and order and then spend some time speaking about the curse of blackmarketing which was rampant (leading to Bengal famine in the mid 1940s), Jinnah spoke about partition as an event on which the history was yet to pass its verdict. He spoke of the angularities of majority and minority and the need to bury these pointing out that a “India - a nation of 400 million” could not have been kept under subjection of foreign rule had it not been for these divisions. He emphasized the need to begin a anew and spoke of completely religious freedom declaring that a citizen’s religion was no business of the state. He then recounted the experience of Catholics and Protestants in Great Britain historically.

As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation. Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State

Jinnah had throughout the Pakistan Movement tried to keep a dignified distance from the votaries of a theocracy. Evidence of his close colleague and friend Raja of Mahmudabad is particularly enlightening.

The Raja started off by saying that since the Lahore resolution had been passed earlier that year, if and when Pakistan was formed, it was undoubtedly to be an Islamic State with the Sunna and Shariah as its bedrock. The Quaid’s face went red and he turned to ask Raja whether he had taken leave of his senses. Mr. Jinnah added: `Did you realize that there are over seventy sects and differences of opinion regarding the Islamic faith, and if what the Raja was suggesting was to be followed, the consequences would be a struggle of religious opinion from the very inception of the State leading to its very dissolution. Mr. Jinnah banged his hands on the table and said: We shall not be an Islamic State but a Liberal Democratic Muslim State.

Jinnah insistence on a parliamentary form of government representative of and responsible to the people regardless of religion, caste or creed and not to or by priests with a divine mission:

On 21st May, 1947, Jinnah described clearly what kind of state he envisaged in Pakistan:

The basis of the central administration of Pakistan and that of the units to be set up will be decided no doubt, by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. But the Government of Pakistan can only be a popular representative and democratic form of Government. Its Parliament and Cabinet responsible to the Parliament will both be finally responsible to the electorate and the people in general without any distinction of caste, creed or sect, which will the final deciding factor with regard to the policy and programme of the Government that may be adopted from time to time… The minorities in Pakistan will be the citizens of Pakistan and enjoy all the rights, privileges and obligations of citizenship without any distinction of caste creed or sect. They will be treated justly and fairly. The Government will run the administration and control the legislative measures by its Parliament, and the collective conscience of the Parliament itself will be a guarantee that the minorities need not have any apprehension of any injustice being done to them. Over and above that there will be provisions for the protection and safeguard of the minorities which in my opinion must be embodied in the constitution itself. And this will leave no doubt as to the fundamental rights of the citizens, protection of religion and faith of every section, freedom of thought and protection of their cultural and social life

In an interview with Duncan Hooper he said:

Minorities DO NOT cease to be citizens. Minorities living in Pakistan or Hindustan do not cease to be citizens of their respective states by virtue of their belonging to particular faith, religion or race. I have repeatedly made it clear, especially in my opening speech to the constituent Assembley, that the minorities in Pakistan would be treated as our citizens and will enjoy all the rights as any other community. Pakistan SHALL pursue this policy and do all it can to create a sense of security and confidence in the Non-Muslim minorities of Pakistan. We do not prescribe any school boy tests for their loyalty. We shall not say to any Hindu citizen of Pakistan ‘if there was war would you shoot a Hindu?’

In his address to the people of the United States of America, Jinnah said:

In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non- Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.

What would your thoughts be when you read all this as a foreighner,?
Btw,there is more.
 
I have read some speeches to;
On 11th August 1947, Jinnah stood up to speak as the first president of the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, it was after Kiran Shankar Roy, a Congress stalwart and a member of the PCA from Bengal, had spoken. Roy had – after congratulating Jinnah asked him to make a clear pronouncement on whether Pakistan would be a secular or an Islamic state. Jinnah in response gave what was the clearest pronouncement of secularism by any leader or statesman in all of history. After observing that the first responsibility of any state was to maintain law and order and then spend some time speaking about the curse of blackmarketing which was rampant (leading to Bengal famine in the mid 1940s), Jinnah spoke about partition as an event on which the history was yet to pass its verdict. He spoke of the angularities of majority and minority and the need to bury these pointing out that a “India - a nation of 400 million” could not have been kept under subjection of foreign rule had it not been for these divisions. He emphasized the need to begin a anew and spoke of completely religious freedom declaring that a citizen’s religion was no business of the state. He then recounted the experience of Catholics and Protestants in Great Britain historically.

As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation. Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State

Jinnah had throughout the Pakistan Movement tried to keep a dignified distance from the votaries of a theocracy. Evidence of his close colleague and friend Raja of Mahmudabad is particularly enlightening.

The Raja started off by saying that since the Lahore resolution had been passed earlier that year, if and when Pakistan was formed, it was undoubtedly to be an Islamic State with the Sunna and Shariah as its bedrock. The Quaid’s face went red and he turned to ask Raja whether he had taken leave of his senses. Mr. Jinnah added: `Did you realize that there are over seventy sects and differences of opinion regarding the Islamic faith, and if what the Raja was suggesting was to be followed, the consequences would be a struggle of religious opinion from the very inception of the State leading to its very dissolution. Mr. Jinnah banged his hands on the table and said: We shall not be an Islamic State but a Liberal Democratic Muslim State.

Jinnah insistence on a parliamentary form of government representative of and responsible to the people regardless of religion, caste or creed and not to or by priests with a divine mission:

On 21st May, 1947, Jinnah described clearly what kind of state he envisaged in Pakistan:

The basis of the central administration of Pakistan and that of the units to be set up will be decided no doubt, by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. But the Government of Pakistan can only be a popular representative and democratic form of Government. Its Parliament and Cabinet responsible to the Parliament will both be finally responsible to the electorate and the people in general without any distinction of caste, creed or sect, which will the final deciding factor with regard to the policy and programme of the Government that may be adopted from time to time… The minorities in Pakistan will be the citizens of Pakistan and enjoy all the rights, privileges and obligations of citizenship without any distinction of caste creed or sect. They will be treated justly and fairly. The Government will run the administration and control the legislative measures by its Parliament, and the collective conscience of the Parliament itself will be a guarantee that the minorities need not have any apprehension of any injustice being done to them. Over and above that there will be provisions for the protection and safeguard of the minorities which in my opinion must be embodied in the constitution itself. And this will leave no doubt as to the fundamental rights of the citizens, protection of religion and faith of every section, freedom of thought and protection of their cultural and social life

In an interview with Duncan Hooper he said:

Minorities DO NOT cease to be citizens. Minorities living in Pakistan or Hindustan do not cease to be citizens of their respective states by virtue of their belonging to particular faith, religion or race. I have repeatedly made it clear, especially in my opening speech to the constituent Assembley, that the minorities in Pakistan would be treated as our citizens and will enjoy all the rights as any other community. Pakistan SHALL pursue this policy and do all it can to create a sense of security and confidence in the Non-Muslim minorities of Pakistan. We do not prescribe any school boy tests for their loyalty. We shall not say to any Hindu citizen of Pakistan ‘if there was war would you shoot a Hindu?’

In his address to the people of the United States of America, Jinnah said:

In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non- Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.

What would your thoughts be when you read all this as a foreighner,?
Btw,there is more.


like I explained it to you, that he believed all the values are protected under the Islamic rule.. that is why he never mentioned secular state but Islamic state.. rest I dont know what you extract, that purely depends how you want to paint it.
 
3. Recently it has been discovered that certain statements,papers,speeches,etc of Jinnah had been kept hidden in the archives. This was done to distort facts that establish Jinnah's adherence to Islamic values. The archives were under the care of Zafrullah Choudhury

And what is the source of these absurd claims ???

that is why he never mentioned secular state but Islamic state..

Because for Jinnah , A true Islamic state was essentially secular in character !!
 
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You are wrong brother, Jinnah was not secular for the cause of Pakistan..he never ever mentioned the word secular during Pakistan movement, we are the only nation-state in Muslim world who fought their way to independence...it would be unjust to his vision to associate it with secularism, cause he believed in Islamic values and propagated so and so as well during the whole movement... in short he wanted an Islamic socialist state, he believed we as muslims never needed to turn to secularism, our Islamic values are good enough to manage a state without any sort of discrimination on the basis of caste colour, creed or religious beliefs..

the problem is did we uphold to his vision and followed, my understanding is that except for the objectives' resolution which is magna carta of Pakistan's constitution, rest of our "reforms" make us look like a theocratic state, which Jinnah clearly ruled out as an option.

If we had followed the path of Objective's resolution and not bowed to Mullahism, we might have had taken a better path in our national life. instead modernists shrinked to the point of not being noticed.. while extreme neo-liberals/anti-religion and mullahism started to take our country for ride.. therefore, as a nation to follow Jinnah's vision, moderates must step up and own political Islam for the benefit of the society and take away the right from mullahs and neo-liberals to define what values Islam preach !



Sir care to share if you have them?
1.I need to look for it. But I saw it recently either here in PDF or in a Pakistani newspaper.

2. Meanwhile I attach Jinnah's last known speech. This was delivered at the opening of SBP. For this Jinnah had traveled all the way from Ziarat much against the advice of his doctor. The second last para is important. In a concise manner he has directed the nation to follow Islam in all affairs.
 
1.I need to look for it. But I saw it recently either here in PDF or in a Pakistani newspaper.

2. Meanwhile I attach Jinnah's last known speech. This was delivered at the opening of SBP. For this Jinnah had traveled all the way from Ziarat much against the advice of his doctor. The second last para is important. In a concise manner he has directed the nation to follow Islam in all affairs.
Quaid’s effort to Islamise society was thwarted - thenews.com.pk

There, I have it.
 
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