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Islamisation fears at top Pakistan university

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@Secur Well I'm back. Have to concur with @Armstrong on this, while the aforementioned blackmail for hijab might just be a sign of more sinister things to come, by itself it is nothing more than peer pressure and a different set of norms than those which pervade the college going youth the world over, or perhaps not even that- I am sure there is at least one group of sophomores running about in the promised land and trying to get girls to sign up for their chastity rings with a bit of social pressure as the stimulus. On the other hand if such groups resort to violence or coercion which goes beyond jibes and social boycotting then you'll have a problem on your hands.
 
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What group is then more likely to kill the other or impose by force , if it doesn't fall in line ? Who has harmed you more as a nation ? What can mobilize and cause people to haywire much faster and with effectiveness ? Doesn't the faith always seem to triumph over reason , mate ? Frequency and being dominant and actions do matter , mate . You have far more of people supporting ( even if silently or selectively ) the actions of terrorist , propagating " conspiracy theories " and speaking against the " modernity " and " western influence and culture " whilst being religiously extremist in their approach than the ones on the other side . Isn't it in your city where a convicted murderer was carried on shoulders by a vast crowd of religiously seduced students for he acted ( what if it was wrong ? ) against an alleged blasphemer ? Do we need to remember again that the houses did get burned by an organized group of people again on the same false charges ?

Ever seen the liberal extremists do that maybe shove ethanol down your throat ? :D

I fear that often a times we get bogged down by analyzing symptoms of the problem instead of the problem itself !

What you mention above are in no way different than any of the separatist insurgencies, their support structure within the society, their sympathizers within the mainstream & those who shy away from condemning their heinous acts; so the common denominator between a secular separatist insurgency based around a sense of victimhood & a sense of ethno-linguistic nationalism & between a religiously motivated militant movement that seeks to impose its agenda & would adopt equally heinous means to achieve are the elements of 'violence' & 'misgovernance' on part of those who are charged with governance - The religious sentiment, the ethnic affiliations, the linguistic identification & the self-declared victims crying out in agony are all 'intensifers' or 'conduits', if you will, to direct those violent urges within us to change the system perforce !

Those two things & they alone - violence & misgovernance - are the root causes of these issues otherwise Che Guevara & Baitullah Mehsud aren't as different as we think them to be; both think that they're fighting the good fight & both picked up arms to change the system without caring for what the people want !

Likewise Qadri & the butchers of our boys in Baluchistan who fight for purely secular ideals being garlanded & praised aren't as world's apart as we may think !

That is precisely why I do believe that this fear of growing Islamization is a red-herring & most certainly the many observations presented forth within this article are ludicrous as is the implied assertion that most religious people would shove their version of the 'good life...the righteous life' down a person's throat just because they are religiously motivated to do so !

Case in point the the report titled 'Final Report - The Birth Place of the Arab Spring : Values & Perceptions of the Tunisian Public in a comparative perspective Dec 15th, 2013', which was as usual quoted out-of-context by one of our ever so dear neighbor to score brownie points observes as follows :

On the question whether 'a wife must always obey her husband' - Only 8% of Pakistanis agreed compared with 30% of Turks & 22% of Tunisians (both are Secular with one being avowedly Secular even in a societal sense) (page 51)

On the question 'men make better political leaders than women' - About 29% of agreed to that as opposed to 46% & 45% of Turks & Tunisians respectively ! (page 52)

On the question 'when Jobs are scarce, men should have more rights to a job than women' - About 15% of Pakistanis agreed to that as opposed to 44% & 27% of Turks & Tunisians respectively ! (page 52)

On the question 'University education is more important for boys than it is for girls' - About 50% of Pakistanis agreed to that as opposed to 71% of the Turks & 80% of Tunisians ! (page 53)

On the question 'Democracy may face problems but its better than any other form of Government' - About 83% of Pakistanis agreed with this ! (page 65)

Ironically enough on the question 'Is it very good, fairly good....or very bad to have an Islamic Government' - 33% of Pakistanis agreed that it was good (both very & fairly added together) whereas 32% of Turks & 39% of Tunisians agreed that it was 'good' to have them ! (page 66)

Now these ones are bit more important
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On the question 'Non Muslims should be prohibited to practice their religion in 'study country'' - Only 4% of Pakistanis agreed to that which is much less than any other country in the study ! (page 81)

On the question 'the followers of other religions should not have the same rights as mine' - Only 10% of Pakistanis agreed with this which is considerably less than any other country in the study ! (Page 82)

On the question 'Approval of attacks on US Civilians working for US companies in Islamic Countries' - Less than 1% of Pakistanis approved of that whilst Turks - having the next lowest approval rating - of them only 3% approved of it ! (Page 90) !

And yet the same study observed a strong yearning for the Shariah in Pakistan & a very strong opposition to the Separation of Religion & Politics by Pakistanis; therefore it only strengthens my view that 'violence' & 'misgovernance' are the issues that lead to such policies & such acts that go about with complete impunity not the society or even the ideological yearning of the society !

A fascinating study ! @Talon - You should check it out too !
 
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These days hoodhboy is at our fc college by the way :))) Attended some of his lectures regarding Kashmir issue etc.I dont know ,he acts unbiased and rational but this article is plain non sense
 
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If there will be girls wearing shorts or tight jeans......and even kissing in the compound....nobody will talk about that....everybody will say right of freedom.....but when there are mosque built......some western mind peoples have objections..:p:
 
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I fear that often a times we get bogged down by analyzing symptoms of the problem instead of the problem itself !
What you mention above are in no way different than any of the separatist insurgencies, their support structure within the society, their sympathizers within the mainstream & those who shy away from condemning their heinous acts; so the common denominator between a secular separatist insurgency based around a sense of victimhood & a sense of ethno-linguistic nationalism & between a religiously motivated militant movement that seeks to impose its agenda & would adopt equally heinous means to achieve are the elements of 'violence' & 'misgovernance' on part of those who are charged with governance - The religious sentiment, the ethnic affiliations, the linguistic identification & the self-declared victims crying out in agony are all 'intensifers' or 'conduits', if you will, to direct those violent urges within us to change the system perforce !
Those two things & they alone - violence & misgovernance - are the root causes of these issues otherwise Che Guevara & Baitullah Mehsud aren't as different as we think them to be; both think that they're fighting the good fight & both picked up arms to change the system without caring for what the people want !
Likewise Qadri & the butchers of our boys in Baluchistan who fight for purely secular ideals being garlanded & praised aren't as world's apart as we may think !
That is precisely why I do believe that this fear of growing Islamization is a red-herring & most certainly the many observations presented forth within this article are ludicrous as is the implied assertion that most religious people would shove their version of the 'good life...the righteous life' down a person's throat just because they are religiously motivated to do so !

Why do I have a strange feeling that you are to trying to underestimate the threat and the danger it presents to the country massively and instead trying to paint a " all's well " picture when the reality is quite different ? A labyrinth of words and prying eyes from the situation of ground and this literally ostrich attitude isn't going to make the situation better . The truth is that radicalization and subsequent terrorism resulting from it , is the single most pressing problem and chief cause of concern for Pakistan and something which is highly visible in the society and one whose " results " can be seen on a daily basis throughout the country ! What I mention may not be very different to the separatist insurgencies but this one has proven to be far more deadly is our 60+ years of history , now this does matter . Never before since our independence , have we lost a staggering and deeply saddening 65,000 of our countrymen to any such group - whether separatist in nature or striving for a different system ! Not in the Baluch insurgency and neither in the '71 war ! This is something far more different than you imagine , because it has got the influence of most powerful and damning thing - the religion and the support of a radicalized population due to fear psychology ( in whatever form whether its selective or agreeing completely/partially or thinking that Taliban are fighting for a righteous cause - the Shariah - either on this or that side of the Khyber Pass ) - add their PSYOPS and effective propaganda campaign and it starts to make sense . The causes , have been discussed to death before , starting all the way from the global Jihad in Afghanistan . A country creates a monster , tries to control them and fails to do so - the short sightedness is more than obvious in the whole case - it was all deliberate except of course for the final part . Call it any way you want but the end result is in front of our eyes .

Actually they have a high probability of acting as such and usually tend to - the shoving of religion and acting " religious than thou " is the basic thing seen . Now , I told to see certain quotes from the article whilst mentioning that I would explain them later . The observation of " leaving it all to the God and doing nothing by themselves " and thus suffering in the real world ( far different from the utopia they are used to ) because of their inability to compete is hurting the country and the society is as real as it gets , all due to pushing the religion more than what is needed . To quote @Oscar , one that leaves the whole republic suffering . Similar was the case with a certain biology chapter in ninth grade , whereas the curriculum perfectly OK wasn't allowed to be used from Aga Khan board here , because get it , it somehow was obscene teaching " little children of ninth class " that humans do reproduce somehow and they aren't arriving in an Airbus A380 . I remember the Mullah dance in Karachi leading to the " reversal " and I do not know how you would have missed the whole issue back then . The trend of teachers involving themselves in questionable debates on sensitive topics has been evident as of later . The disdain and hatred for " modern and specially Western " things is another phenomenon associated with radicalism and overdoses of religion , finding solace in " going back to the old perfect ways " and thus going against the sinful worldly ways and has been on the rise lately - easily observable in the society and the cyber world . All of these are indicating the " misuse and overdose of religion " and representative of a very dangerous mindset . I told you there that despite the article is poorly written , in a bad taste and factually incorrect at places , it does raise some valid points . See the underlying message because the prayers or mosques aren't definitely the problem .
 
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ITS ABOUT TIME WE BAN JAMAAT E ISLAMI, JAMIAT ULEMA ISLAM, JAMAIAT AHLE HADITH, JANNAT PAKISTAN PARTY, MUSLIM LEAGUE ZIA, SUNNI TEHREEK, ISLAMI JAMIAT TULEBA, NAWAZ LEAGUE, THESE ARE RELIGIOUS PARTIES USING RELIGION TO SELL THEIR THEIR DIRTY TEA.

BAN THEM ALL TO SAVE PAKISTAN.

and ban all political parties too that do politics on language province or city.

Over sensationalized article. We do have a lot of mosques in Pakistan but we have no faith. Its a problem of society or Muslim societies in large.

the lack of libraries, or lack of well stocked libraries is a symptom of our lack of interest in education. Both the symptoms - lack of faith and lack interest in education is amply seen in our society. The extremist twist in this report is for western audience.
 
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wow just wow for the Liberal scums...We are Islamic country and Islamic beliefs are and must be the basic essence of everything we do...How is this even compared to radicalization,or wait the Liberal scums want people to abandon everything related to Islam because these low lives or western wanna bees want to prove their loyalty to their masters...
 
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Why do I have a strange feeling that you are to trying to underestimate the threat and the danger it presents to the country massively and instead trying to paint a " all's well " picture when the reality is quite different ? A labyrinth of words and prying eyes from the situation of ground and this literally ostrich attitude isn't going to make the situation better . The truth is that radicalization and subsequent terrorism resulting from it , is the single most pressing problem and chief cause of concern for Pakistan and something which is highly visible in the society and one whose " results " can be seen on a daily basis throughout the country ! What I mention may not be very different to the separatist insurgencies but this one has proven to be far more deadly is our 60+ years of history , now this does matter . Never before since our independence , have we lost a staggering and deeply saddening 65,000 of our countrymen to any such group - whether separatist in nature or striving for a different system ! Not in the Baluch insurgency and neither in the '71 war ! This is something far more different than you imagine , because it has got the influence of most powerful and damning thing - the religion and the support of a radicalized population due to fear psychology ( in whatever form whether its selective or agreeing completely/partially or thinking that Taliban are fighting for a righteous cause - the Shariah - either on this or that side of the Khyber Pass ) - add their PSYOPS and effective propaganda campaign and it starts to make sense . The causes , have been discussed to death before , starting all the way from the global Jihad in Afghanistan . A country creates a monster , tries to control them and fails to do so - the short sightedness is more than obvious in the whole case - it was all deliberate except of course for the final part . Call it any way you want but the

Actually they have a high probability of acting as such and usually tend to - the shoving of religion and acting " religious than thou " is the basic thing seen . Now , I told to see certain quotes from the article whilst mentioning that I would explain them later . The observation of " leaving it all to the God and doing nothing by themselves " and thus suffering in the real world ( far different from the utopia they are used to ) because of their inability to compete is hurting the country and the society is as real as it gets , all due to pushing the religion more than what is needed . To quote @Oscar , one that leaves the whole republic suffering . Similar was the case with a certain biology chapter in ninth grade , whereas the curriculum perfectly OK wasn't allowed to be used from Aga Khan board here , because get it , it somehow was obscene teaching " little children of ninth class " that humans do reproduce somehow and they aren't arriving in an Airbus A380 . I remember the Mullah dance in Karachi leading to the " reversal " and I do not know how you would have missed the whole issue back then . The trend of teachers involving themselves in questionable debates on sensitive topics has been evident as of later . The disdain and hatred for " modern and specially Western " things is another phenomenon associated with radicalism and overdoses of religion , finding solace in " going back to the old perfect ways " and thus going against the sinful worldly ways and has been on the rise lately - easily observable in the society and the cyber world . All of these are indicating the " misuse and overdose of religion " and representative of a very dangerous mindset . I told you there that despite the article is poorly written , in a bad taste and factually incorrect at places , it does raise some valid points . See the underlying message because the prayers or mosques aren't definitely the problem .

No I am not taking the current threat lightly I just don't think that we're pinpointing the reasons behind it as much as we are incessantly bogged down in the many facets of it !

The reason, for the upteenth time, in my humble opinion, for Pakistan's current status is neither the religiosity of the State nor the religiosity of the Society but 'Governance'.....'Governance'.....& more 'Governance' !

For starters I have yet to see the evidence for the 'radicalization' of the population & the reasons presented in your posts nor in the article suffices in the least bit; no amount of religious sensibilities even if it means opposition to certain portions from the curricula is indicative of radicalization ! Parochialism - Yes...but how is that radicalization ? Neither the exclusion of certain genocides in the history of a country in a myriad countries across the world has induced a recurring violent streak within the people who inhabit that country nor has the inclusion of Creationism & other such areas including an opposition to teaching the Reproductive Cycle or giving them Sexual Education has propelled the people who inhabit those areas to bomb the sh*t out of those classes or those who teach them !

Similarly the existence of such social taboos in Pakistan, which by-the-way is present in other countries as well, doesn't indicate that the people are radicalized only that they - like their counterparts in other countries - have issues with certain things being taught or said & that their response to that has been narrow minded & much less than optimal !

Additionally every survey or poll that I've come across points towards a lack of support to severe opposition towards the TTP & the Al-Qaeeda elements within the country & most certainly severe opposition towards their methods !

@Secur - Apnaa @Oscar thanked your post & even rated it whereas mujhee koii lift hiii nahin karvaiiii ? :(

Pataaa thaaa....he didn't rate my post only because I'm not from the same blood as you two are ! :cray:
 
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No I am not taking the current threat lightly I just don't think that we're pinpointing the reasons behind it as much as we are incessantly bogged down in the many facets of it !

I got your point . But we always have discussed the reasons behind the whole mess . Haven't I never missed an opportunity to trace it all back to the Afghan war ?

For starters I have yet to see the evidence for the 'radicalization' of the population & the reasons presented in your posts nor in the article suffices in the least bit; no amount of religious sensibilities even if it means opposition to certain portions from the curricula is indicative of radicalization !

Then I do not know what you understand by radicalization :D . All I can say is open your eyes and look at what is happening around you and not just in your city - even though Lahore has its own fair share of such stuff . The reasons presented in the article and explained in my post are sufficient indicators of such a phenomenon - you can declare them wrong and dismiss them of course saying that it is @Secur liberal mind making the observation and agreeing with pure Western propaganda ( :lol: ) , but it isn't only the narrow mindedness of the world at play here . No , mate , it is far worse than that . The phenomenon later tends to convert into something dangerous , the behaviors arises from thought .

Lets see an example . If I tell you that yesterday " Maulana Tariq Jamil was with Veena Malik and her husband at a royal dinner given by the Dubai prince " ? . What am I trying to tell you ? Is it a simple fact or am I conveying something a deep message and telling you of my mindset/thought patterns too in that " simple fact " ? :P

Look deep within things , my friend .
 
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I got your point . But we always have discussed the reasons behind the whole mess . Haven't I never missed an opportunity to trace it all back to the Afghan war ?

Then I do not know what you understand by radicalization :D . All I can say is open your eyes and look at what is happening around you and not just in your city - even though Lahore has its own fair share of such stuff . The reasons presented in the article and explained in my post are sufficient indicators of such a phenomenon - you can declare them wrong and dismiss them of course saying that it is @Secur liberal mind making the observation and agreeing with pure Western propaganda ( :lol: ) , but it isn't only the narrow mindedness of the world at play here . No , mate , it is far worse than that . The phenomenon later tends to convert into something dangerous , the behaviors arises from thought .

Lets see an example . If I tell you that yesterday " Maulana Tariq Jamil was with Veena Malik and her husband at a royal dinner given by the Dubai prince " ? . What am I trying to tell you ? Is it a simple fact or am I conveying something a deep message and telling you of my mindset/thought patterns too in that " simple fact " ? :P

Look deep within things , my friend .

@Talon - Is this kid patronizing me ? :mad:

Isss kiii tou aisiiii kiiii taisiiii ! :pissed:

Let us then agree to disagree ! :cheers:

And remember @Secur - the day Armstrong is proven wrong is the day the world would cease to exist ! :agree:
 
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''At Quaid-i-Azam University there are four mosques, but still no bookshop"

Islamabad (AFP) - The Pakistan studies lecturer is in mid-flow when his students stand and rush for the door -- his class interrupted yet again by the call to prayer.

"They won't come back for at least 30 minutes and some of them even decide not to return to class," Sajjad Akhtar said, gathering his notes and sitting down to wait for his students to return.

At Quaid-i-Azam University, rated the best public university in Pakistan and the best Pakistani university in Asia, this is an everyday reality across all academic departments.

The university grants a 15-minute break for prayers but any student is allowed to get up as soon he hears the call to prayer in what critics call a chaotic interruption of academic life.

They say increased Islamisation in Pakistan's top teaching institutes and among the growing middle classes is helping to dumb down academic standards and restrict students' social life.

"At Quaid-i-Azam University there are four mosques, but still no bookshop," says Pervez Hoodbhoy, a nuclear physicist and one of Pakistan's most prominent academics who used to teach there.

Established in 1965 in the new federal capital Islamabad, it was considered a liberal campus until 1977 when controversial military ruler Zia-ul-Haq seized power.

During his 10-year rule, until his death in a plane crash in 1988, Zia embedded a conservative form of Islam into politics and affairs of state, and ushered in sharia law to run alongside the penal code.

Trade unions and student bodies were banned in educational institutions, and Arabic and Islamic studies were made mandatory for all students until university level.

Additional marks were given in exams to students who learned the Koran by heart. Over the subsequent generations, the trend has got deeper and more embedded.

"There are far fewer students today who can sing and dance, recite poetry, or who read novels than 20 years ago," Hoodbhoy told AFP.

"The university is very much like a school for older children, where rote-learning is considered education.

"There's no intellectual excitement, no feeling of discovery, and girls are mostly silent note-takers, you have to prod them to ask questions."

Strolling through the various departments, most female students wear the hijab -- the tight headscarf that hides all their hair and an import from the Middle East -- and none wear jeans.

None dare sit next to a man, a common sight at more liberal privately-run universities which have become the preserve of the elite as schools like Quaid-e-Azam cater to the lower and middle classes.

Though no specific place is allocated for men and women in the central cafeteria, both genders sit as far apart as possible.

Hifza Aftab, a hijab-wearing MBA student, says there is no such thing as a "liberal" girl at the university.

Any young woman who arrives on campus without wearing a hijab or the looser dupatta traditional to Pakistan quickly changes the look in two or three months, she says.

"A liberal girl would get notorious throughout the whole university," she said.

It was not always thus. Jamil Ahmed, who graduated in 1991, told AFP that in his days the hijab was rarely seen and male and female students would mingle.

Hasan Askari, a former professor at Punjab University, said students are becoming increasingly attached to religion and drifting away from rational thinking.

"The increasing Islamisation has affected quality of education as today, teachers stress more on conspiracy theories than logic," he said.

Last year a private school in Lahore dropped human reproduction from the biology syllabus after an outcry in the conservative Urdu-language press claiming it was "obscene".

Quaid-i-Azam University Vice Chancellor Masoom Yasinzai admitted academic standards had slipped over the years but insisted it was a country-wide problem and not to do with the growing focus on religion.

"Here at Quaid-i-Azam University, academic standards are not falling at an alarming rate," he said, adding that the expression "Islamisation" was being used out of context.

"We have given students the freedom to practise their religion and I think practising religion is one's individual choice."

With sectarianism and violence against minorities on the rise in Pakistan, some fear encouraging a religious mindset in universities is storing up problems for the future.

"If you have a very dominant view and very authoritarian worldview which this curriculum is teaching you, that 'You are Muslims, Islam is a good religion and other religions are not good,' that value system will create a social crisis in the society," education analyst Farzana Bari told AFP.

At one of the mosques on campus, a number of religious books are on display on the bookshelves and free for students to take away.

One of them, entitled "Put an end to obscenity" has pictures of a computer, CD player and a drum set on its cover with a red cross on top of each.

The book explains how playing music during marriage ceremonies affects "the next life" and how angels pour melted copper into the ear of anyone who listens to music or the female voice.

At the mosque, cleric Habib-u-Rehman Saleem says floods and earthquakes are God's punishment for gay sex.

"Males started to sleep with males and females started to sleep with females," he tells a group of male students.

"Some people are trying to create an environment like that of the West here, but God willing the students are religious and they will never let any such conspiracy succeed."

Touseef Ahmed Khan, chairman of the Federal Urdu University in Karachi, said he could see no change coming soon.

"A whole generation was Islamised and those who started their academic career during the Zia regime are now retiring from their jobs," he said.

"This phenomenon of Islamisation has been there for three decades, you cannot reverse it in one year -- it will take decades to do so."

Islamisation fears at top Pakistan university - Yahoo News

So students bunking classes by using prayers as an excuse makes Islam responsible, the writer should not have just considered the number of students going out of class but also the ones actually showing up at the mosque, during an evening tution I partook in all the class used to apparently move out for prayer and mysteriously end up lighting a smoke, going to the canteen and never showing back in class again, Islam is not to blame for any of our problems as the the liberals make one believe, I have first hand experience with our middle and upper class youth (because I am one of them) and we are sadly far from religion or any other lofty ideal, most of us are lazy, capitalistic, unmotivated **** watts who sit on their *** all day using facebook to talk to chicks that dont give a shit about us.....
 
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At Quaid-i-Azam University, rated the best public university in Pakistan and the best Pakistani university in Asia.

Are there Pakistani universities outside Pakistan?
 
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