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Islamic Monuments in India - Whose Legacy?

Do Islamic monuments in India belong to Pakistani history?


  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .
Stealth,

A slight digression, but the questions you raise in your first point are exactly the questions raised to debunk the idea of modern India being a continuation of ancient India, in terms of ancient India being any sort of unified entity.

But back to the topic, the question of whether the IVC were city states rather than a single empire is moot because the argument is that empire or city states, they existed in modern day Pakistan.

As to what happened - the most plausible theory is probably that like the Mayan and Aztec City States, they made very tantalizing targets, and their breakdown probably resulted in the IVC people moving into smaller settlements in the surrounding areas.

Even if they were wiped out completely, the fact that the majority of the civilization was present in Pakistan gives Pakistan the right to claim it as their history. We are after all not going to tell the Greeks that their ancient history is not theirs just because they cannot explain every single event and attribute associated with it.

If the people migrated, and their customs and way of life evolved as they interacted and mixed with other peoples, then they were not the IVC any more were they?

One definition of civilization is "the type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch".

If migration (out of Pakistan or merely out of their cities) was the cause of their disappearance, then I would argue that they did not meet the requirements of a civilization any more, but that still does not diminish the fact that as a civilization they lived and prospered in the lands of modern Pakistan primarily.

Once the civilization itself ceased to exist, shreds of the culture, customs and knowledge would still be passed onto the ancestors of modern Pakistanis through the remnants of the IVC, and hence Pakistan's claim to that history.

What if modern day Pakistan had different boundaries?

Modern day geography is not the basis on which history is divided because our modern day borders are not permanent.

Further, the IVC was a geographically widespread civilization.

You can say that the IVC is a part of Pakistan's history, but not that it is an Ancient Pakistani civilization.

Further, the IVC is also not and Ancient Indian civilization. It is a part of Indian history.
 
Everyone, will you please read the title of the poll again? This thread has gone completely off-track.
 
Does it matter?

Lets say that the IVC was comprised of various City-States.

Is there any evidence to support that there wasn't an alliance between the various Cities, like the Aztec City States had?

At this point at least the consensus is that the majority of this "civilization" was centered in modern day Pakistan.

The Mauryan empire was primarily in India, so it would continue to be a primarily associated with Modern India.

So I would imagine the IVC should be primarily associated with modern Pakistan.

For a civilization to be "centered" around Pakistan, it needs to have a centre, i.e. a capital.

Since there was no central authority or capital, it cannot be said to have centered around any country. It was spread across 2 countries.

Having established that, it is quite apparent that although a majority of the sites lay within Pakistan, a significant number also lay within India.

What's more, the vast majority of sites lie a few kilometers on either side of the border.

The ideological basis of modern day Pakistan has nothing to do with their ancient history. Infact, the ideological basis of Pakistan is an outright rejection of their past.
Modern day Pakistanis are ethnically distinct from the IVC people as well. Of course, a little mixing might have occured, but that genetic component has reduced to next to nothing through the centuries. .

As RR likes to often point out, The predecessors of the term India were first used for the land lying to the east of the Indus, which would include eastern Pakistan. So why should any Pakistanis have problems with their history being called "Indian" history?

Since the Indus valley is associated with "ancient India", it should be called an "ancient Indian" civilization, and not an "Ancient Pakistani" one
 
Stealth,

A slight digression, but the questions you raise in your first point are exactly the questions raised to debunk the idea of modern India being a continuation of ancient India, in terms of ancient India being any sort of unified entity.

Who said that Ancient India was a unified political entity. It was a unified cultural entity, as compared and contrasted with other cultural entities.

But back to the topic, the question of whether the IVC were city states rather than a single empire is moot because the argument is that empire or city states, they existed in modern day Pakistan.

They existed in an ancient cultural entity called "Ancient India", not in the modern political entity called "Pakistan"

As to what happened - the most plausible theory is probably that like the Mayan and Aztec City States, they made very tantalizing targets, and their breakdown probably resulted in the IVC people moving into smaller settlements in the surrounding areas.

There are several theories, including ones which say that climate change forced the tribes to move eastwards well before the arrival of the new races.

Even if they were wiped out completely, the fact that the majority of the civilization was present in Pakistan gives Pakistan the right to claim it as their history. We are after all not going to tell the Greeks that their ancient history is not theirs just because they cannot explain every single event and attribute associated with it.

But the Greeks are by and large descendants of the Ancient Greeks. The same cannot be said about modern Pakistanis. Perhaps, a small fraction of them, but that's all.

Even the American settlers mixed with the Natives to some extent. That doesn't make American settlers the inheritors of the histories of the native tribes.

If the people migrated, and their customs and way of life evolved as they interacted and mixed with other peoples, then they were not the IVC any more were they?

Yes, but this would be a positive assimilation rather than a diminishing one or nonexistent one.

Who knows, the modern day IVC people could be identified as an isolated tribe in India, but the same can be definitely ruled out for Pakistan, because the gene pool has been almost completely replaced.

One definition of civilization is "the type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch".

If migration (out of Pakistan or merely out of their cities) was the cause of their disappearance, then I would argue that they did not meet the requirements of a civilization any more, but that still does not diminish the fact that as a civilization they lived and prospered in the lands of modern Pakistan primarily.

Once the civilization itself ceased to exist, shreds of the culture, customs and knowledge would still be passed onto the ancestors of modern Pakistanis through the remnants of the IVC, and hence Pakistan's claim to that history.

You are simply giving more importance to the "Land" part of a civilization than the "People" part in order to bolster your argument.
Why should the land be given more importance than the people?

Besides, the modern day Indians have inherited far more from the Harappans in terms of culture than modern day Pakistanis have.

On a different note, many Indians are incensed by the fact that on one hand, Pakistan has sought to dissociate itself from the subcontinent by claiming to be a Central Asian/Persian/Arab culture, and on the other hand, it tries to bolster this seclusion by claiming that even its ancient history is completely different from India.
 
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That's incorrect also. Vedic tribes were inhabiting the Indus Valley, Sapta Sindhu (or Pakistan) almost exclusively. One or two broke away and migrated to the Gangetic plains to set up Hinduism.

LOL RR, did you count the tribes yourself?
 
Buddhism spent more time being developed in Pakistan than in India. Its origins are Nepalese.

So the British Raj is part of subcontinent history. Then Saudi Arabian history is also part of subcontinent history, Turkish history also is. The Greeks also etc.

Buddha was an ethnic Indian who was born on the border between India and Nepal. Buddhism originated well within India, in Bihar to be precise, and it evolved considerably in a number of places within and outside India.

That's not true. The IVC was centred along the Indus River, and predominantly was in Pakistan. Take the example of the Saudi Arabians. We know they invaded parts of India about 1,000 years ago. Can the Saudi Arabians now claim some parts of Indian history as a greater Saudi Arabian history? Since parts of India were part of the Saudi Empire, why not? India in this case would have no history if everything was divided up like you're trying to divide up the IVC.

There is an Iranian and Arabian sphere of Influence, under which both India and Pakistan fall.
You are assuming that history must be divided into mutually exclusive sections. You are assuming wrong.

The term India was invented by ancient Pakistan for the region of the Indus. Some idiot Greeks that were poor at geography and thought "all dem people..duh..where the big river lies, dem folk all look same to me, dey Indian", should not have any influence on what was the real India, and what Indian history actually refers to.

The term India was invented to mean the area "East of the Indus", which originally included Eastern Pakistan and NW India and quickly grew to represent the whole of India and eastern Pakistan.

You keep repeatedly forgetting that the modern border is an arbitrary line and it is not based on what the Greeks defined as India thousands of years ago.

Oh and bravo....you just called the world's first travel writers "idiots".
Wake up call: They were probably a lot smarter than you.
 
Ok, there's something I don't understand. How can "History" belong to anyone? It is not a material object that can be claimed or possessed. It is just an account of all events that happened in the past. No one can "claim" any history. So I don't understand why you guys keep referring to history. This thread is not about history as such. It is about Islamic Monuments in India which are material objects that can be claimed. Whether or not the claim is legitimate is a different matter.
As you can see three members have voted "Yes" to this poll, but they haven't posted why they feel so. I can only assume that they either did it for fun or they cannot find any justification for their claims.

Given the choice, I would definitely agree with your view. History cannot and should not be partitioned because its a series of interconnected events.

However, modern Nationalism and National Identity relies heavily on history and its interpretation in order to create national pride, ethnic pride and religious pride, which are essential ingredients in order to keep a country together.
So, we are forced to commit intellectual harakiri and partition history.
 
History is actually very difficult to attribute in some cases to a certain nation, since national identity might have changed from the time of the historical events and the modern day.

For historical events to be attributed to a nation, first and foremost a majority of the people of that nation should accept those historical events as belonging to them. The geographical location of the historical event doesnt attribute that event to that nation.
 
i conclude this topic with some neutral suggestions tht:

1. muslims ruled "sub continent" for more than 1000 yrs, the muslim monuments belong to the muslims of india, it is the prime duty of indian govt to preserve it and expose the "glorious muslim history of sub continent", and include it in indian course books.

2. muslims have given a new face of india to the world, through their rule came unity and power to india, so india shuld feel proud of muslim inheritance and every indian shuld know the "islamic inheritance history and legacy" and make utmost efforts to preserve it.
 
i conclude this topic with some neutral suggestions tht:

1. muslims ruled "sub continent" for more than 1000 yrs, the muslim monuments belong to the muslims of india, it is the prime duty of indian govt to preserve it and expose the "glorious muslim history of sub continent", and include it in indian course books.

Islamic monuments belong to all Indians, not just muslims.

We are doing a great job of preserving them, and they are a part of Indian History books.

History is supposed to be objective, and not glorify anything.
 
Indeed - India's history belongs to all Indians, regardless of whether they are Hindu, Muslim or Christian.

Peoples faith and beliefs have shifted and changed over time, but the ancestors of the peoples of these lands remain their ancestors, and their works and achievements are a legacy for all who have continued from them.
 
Indeed - India's history belongs to all Indians, regardless of whether they are Hindu, Muslim or Christian.

Peoples faith and beliefs have shifted and changed over time, but the ancestors of the peoples of these lands remain their ancestors, and their works and achievements are a legacy for all who have continued from them.

I couldn't agree more.

Some monuments like the Taj Mahal, are a product of genius drawn from a number of civilizations and sources, and belong to the whole world.
 
Buddha was an ethnic Indian who was born on the border between India and Nepal. Buddhism originated well within India, in Bihar to be precise, and it evolved considerably in a number of places within and outside India.

Buddha was a Nepalese ethnic.

Buddhism originated from Nepal/India, but then got persecuted substantially within India, and found refuge in Pakistan's land. From within pakistan, it developed, especially the Northwest and Swat/Afghanistan.

http://www.sikhspectrum.com/022008/buddhism.htm

There is an Iranian and Arabian sphere of Influence, under which both India and Pakistan fall.
You are assuming that history must be divided into mutually exclusive sections. You are assuming wrong.

History can be divided into mutually exclusive sections in fact. Whatever happened within the borders of modern day Pakistan during history, is the history of the land area known as Pakistan. Whatever happened within India's borders is the history of India.

The term India was invented to mean the area "East of the Indus", which originally included Eastern Pakistan and NW India and quickly grew to represent the whole of India and eastern Pakistan.

LOL. Oh BULLSHYT. No part of the term "India" means East :rofl:

The term "India" was coined with reference to the "Indus River". Nothing to do with East of it.

You keep repeatedly forgetting that the modern border is an arbitrary line and it is not based on what the Greeks defined as India thousands of years ago.

The modern border is not an arbitrary line. There is a reason that Islam spread along only up till the Indo-Pak border. It was definitely not arbitrary.

Oh and bravo....you just called the world's first travel writers "idiots".
Wake up call: They were probably a lot smarter than you.

Compared to today's standards they were idiots, though for their time, they were remarkably advanced..Sort of the USA of today. However, placing such emphasis on their geographical knowledge, and assuming the mistakes they made as fact, is just regurgitating what we know to be incorrect..that is idiocy.
 
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