Islamic History & Archaeology

[M. Sarmad]

70 years before compilation or 200, or any other similar number, the basic principle of a delay causing doubts about authenticity would apply to both scenarios.

Delay is not the only factor causing doubt . You surely haven`t read the previous posts . Quran was written down during the life of Muhammad (pbuh) and this was the reason that there was never a dispute about Quranic verses . There are a lot of Quranic manuscripts which can be safely dated back to first century Hijra . Hadith writing was forbidden by the prophet and the early caliphs . It was Ibn e Shihab who started writing down Ahadith on the orders of Ummayad Kings . And his source was : "what he (supposedly) listened from others , who (allegedly) listened it from others and so on " .. .. No one (even with a little knowledge) will try to compare the two !!!

 

[VCheng]

Delay is not the only factor causing doubt . You surely haven`t read the previous posts . Quran was written down during the life of Muhammad (pbuh) and this was the reason that there was never a dispute about Quraniv verses . There are a lot of Quranic manuscripts which can be safely dated back to first century Hijra . Hadith writing was forbidden by the prophet and the early caliphs . It was Ibn e Shihab who started writing down Ahadith on the orders of Ummayad Kings . And his source was : "what he listened from others , who listened it from others and so on " .. .. It is really surprising that you are trying to draw a comparison between Hadith writing and compilation of Quran !!!

I have read the earlier posts, and it is established fact that the earliest manuscripts of the Quran do differ significantly from the final form approved by Usman RA.

What is surprising is that you fail to see the parallels between your objections to the compilation of the ahadith and that of the Quran. Authenticity in case of such old and revered texts is more a matter of faith and therefore equally deserving of respect.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I have read the earlier posts, and it is established fact that the earliest manuscripts of the Quran do differ significantly from the final form approved by Usman RA.

What is surprising is that you fail to see the parallels between your objections to the compilation of the ahadith and that of the Quran. Authenticity in case of such old and revered texts is more a matter of faith and therefore equally deserving of respect.

Now bring your proof if you are not a liar !!!

 

[VCheng]

Now bring your proof if you are not a liar !!!

Sirjee, I respect both as a matter of faith. Tussi nahi mana tey na mano, menu koi farak nahi painda.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Sirjee, I respect both as a matter of faith. Tussi nahi mana tey na mano, menu koi farak nahi painda.

Na yar , you have made an allegation which can never be proved
The various Western views have all been addressed by contemporary Muslim scholars, (see post #5) , and if you are able to come up with some strong evidence , I will not reject it

 

[Indos]

Delay is not the only factor causing doubt . You surely haven`t read the previous posts . Quran was written down during the life of Muhammad (pbuh) and this was the reason that there was never a dispute about Quranic verses . There are a lot of Quranic manuscripts which can be safely dated back to first century Hijra . Hadith writing was forbidden by the prophet and the early caliphs . It was Ibn e Shihab who started writing down Ahadith on the orders of Ummayad Kings . And his source was : "what he (supposedly) listened from others , who (allegedly) listened it from others and so on " .. .. No one (even with a little knowledge) will try to compare the two !!!

I wonder why our prophet forbid someone writing any hadist (yes, I have seen that hadist), there should be some logical explanation behind it.....

 

[M. Sarmad]

I wonder why our prophet forbid someone writing any hadist (yes, I have seen that hadist), there should be some logical explanation behind it.....

Because (In words of Umer r,a) : "The book of Allah(Quran) is enough for us (i.e Muslims)"

 

[VCheng]

Na yar , you have made an allegation which can never be proved
The various Western views have all been addressed by contemporary Muslim scholars, (see post #5) , and if you are able to come up with some strong evidence , I will not reject it

Sir, it is your belief that the discrepancies in the chronology and the content of the Quran have been explained adequately because it is your faith that the Quran is the unaltered word of Allah. Similarly, it is the equally valid faith of others in the validity of the ahadith that should be respected equally, despite similar lacunae in their compilation.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Sir, it is your belief that the discrepancies in the chronology and the content of the Quran have been explained adequately because it is your faith that the Quran is the unaltered word of Allah. Similarly, it is the equally valid faith of others in the validity of the ahadith that should be respected equally, despite similar lacunae in their compilation.

I am still waiting .... back up your claim with some evidence .
No need to repeat same thing over and over again

 

[VCheng]

I am still waiting .... back up your claim with some evidence .
No need to repeat same thing over and over again

Exactly. Let us move on.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Exactly. Let us move on.

G haan , aur ek naseehat ap k liyay , when you can`t back up your claim with proof/reference , baray baray da`way nahi kernay chahiyay

 

[VCheng]

G haan , aur ek naseehat ap k liyay , when you can`t back up your claim with proof/reference , baray baray da`way nahi kernay chahiyay

Sirjee, one should respect religious beliefs of all types. That naseehat is perhaps more important.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Sirjee, one should respect religious beliefs of all types. That naseehat is perhaps more important.

Bhai Every Muslim Believes that only Quran is perfect . And Quran tells us that we should not accept anything without proper investigation . And we are trying to investigate/establish the authenticity of Hadith . I see no "disrespect" in it ... Except for "Tauheen e Mullahs" , who want us to follow them like sheep

 

[VCheng]

Bhai Every Muslim Believes that only Quran is perfect . And Quran tells us that we should not accept anything without proper investigation . And we are trying to investigate/establish the authenticity of Hadith . I see no "disrespect" in it ...

Sirjee, large numbers of Muslims believe in the "Sahih Ahadith" in the same manner as you believe in the Quran. Who are we to judge the beliefs of others? Just as you are content that all objections to the authenticity in the Quran have been fully satisfied, they believe that they are able to judge the authenticity of the ahadith to their own satisfaction. Thus, for them, they are equally valid.

Judging any belief by logic is simply an exercise in futility.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Sirjee, large numbers of Muslims believe in the "Sahih Ahadith" in the same manner as you believe in the Quran. Who are we to judge the beliefs of others? Just as you are content that all objections to the authenticity in the Quran have been fully satisfied, they believe that they are able to judge the authenticity of the ahadith to their own satisfaction. Thus, for them, they are equally valid.

Judging any belief by logic is simply an exercise in futility.

Not Again !!! . You haven`t got anything to discuss . So ja mera bhai sakoon se