Islamic History & Archaeology

[M. Sarmad]

I have clearly pointed out the false assumptions on which this thread is based.

"assumptions" ???
So you deny all the given historical references just because "you" don`t like them !! This discussion is surely far too mature for you to participate in , so spare us your nonsense please

 

[syedali73]

This thread is based on these 4 ideas.

1) Qur'an al Kareem is inherently non-disputable, if Muslims care to realize
2) Ahadith have caused the disputes
3) Ahadith were collected under duress by politicians
4) They assumed sectarian dogma later on, which is the cause of wars within Muslim groups

That is all.

And all are correct and both historically, and logically proven.

 

[Multani]

And all are correct and both historically, and logically proven.

I have pointed out the illogical assertions made by Azlan. What you are saying means, all Islamic Institutions, whether Sunni, Shia, or Wahabi are false. Is this what you are asserting?

That is a big thing.

@Azlan Haider

 

[M. Sarmad]

That means, all Islamic Institutions, whether Sunni, Shia, or Wahabi are false. Is this what you are asserting?

That is a big thing.

@Azlan Haider

Was Muhammad (pbuh) a Sunni , a Shia , or a Wahhabi ?? And if he was not any of them , then ofcourse they are all wrong !! ! We should be "Muslims" just like our Nabi kareem SAW , who was a "Muslim" only and nothing more

 

[syedali73]

That means, all Islamic Institutions, whether Sunni, Shia, or Wahabi are false. Is this what you are asserting?

That is a big thing.

@Azlan Haider

My understanding of Islam is very simple, based on what is given in Quran plus my logic. It is not difficult to understand Quran, and there is absolutely no need of 'keys' such as books of hadith. Allah has given me a brain and asked me repeatidly in Quran to contemplate.

أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ أَمْ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبٍ أَقْفَالُهَا

Will they not then ponder the Qur'an or are there locks upon their hearts? Surah Al-Muhammad, 47:24.

 

[Multani]

"assumptions" ???
So you deny all the given historical references just because "you" don`t like them !! This discussion is surely far too mature for you to participate in , so spare us your nonsense please

Which "all"? There is a VAST amount of historical references in Islamic literary works, that i can list here. It is not about what i like. I am nothing, and only a student. I didn't come to spoil your thread, or rant.

What you assert can be easily refuted in any Islamic study circle, shia, sunni, or wahabi,

 

[Indos]

And all are correct and both historically, and logically proven.

Some Al-Quran verses are indeed disputable, particularly in determining which verses should be understood literally and which ones should be understood non-literally. Salafi type of person usually don't have clear understanding about non-literal understanding.

Talking about Hadist, some Hadist can also be best understood by using non-literal meaning. Particularly in term of Tauhid teaching, heaven and hell definition. Tasawuf knowledge has used many non-literal interpretation toward Quran and Hadist. Actually for someone understand psychology, they will understand Tasawuf much better and clearly understand which one that should be interpreted as literal and which one should be interpeted as non-literal.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Which "all"? There is a VAST amount of historical references in Islamic literary works, that i can list here. It is not about what i like. I am nothing, and only a student. I didn't come to spoil your thread, or rant.

What you assert can be easily refuted in any Islamic study circle, shia, sunni, or wahabi,

Then delete your stupid reply , and try to refute my post "academically" .. I will be waiting ... And please no copy paste

 

[Multani]

My understanding of Islam is very simple, based on what is given in Quran plus my logic. It is not difficult to understand Quran, and there is absolutely no need of 'keys' such as books of hadith. Allah has given me a brain and asked me repeatidly in Quran to think.

If that is true, why did you say "laeen" to yazeed? It's because you do take it to the sectarian level. You could have been objective in the case of yazeed. Giving him the title of "laeen" serves no purpose except personal hate.

Then delete your stupid post , and refute my post "academically" .. I will be waiting ... And please no copy paste

I cannot delete that post, because in it is ample evidence against the false assertions based on which you have started this topic.

Some Al-Quran verses are indeed disputable, particularly in determining which verses should be understood literally and which ones should be understood non-literally. Salafi type of person usually don't have clear understanding about non-literal understanding.

Talking about Hadist, some Hadist can also be best understood by using non-literal meaning. Particularly in term of Tauhid teaching, heaven and hell definition. Tasawuf knowledge has used many non-literal interpretation toward Quran and Hadist. Actually for someone understand psychology, they will understand Tasawuf much better and clearly understand which one that should be interpreted as literal and which one should be interpeted as non-literal.

Thank you. This post is a very good answer to this thread.

@Azlan Haider @syedali73@Jazzbot @jaibi @Armstrong @danish falcon @Aeronaut

 

[M. Sarmad]

I cannot delete that post, because in it is ample evidence against the false assertions based on which you have started this topic.

Okay , if that is what you call "ample evidence" , I am not wasting time on you anymore . You are free to believe in whatever you want ..

 

[syedali73]

If that is true, why did you say "laeen" to yazeed? It's because you do take it to the sectarian level. You could have been objective in the case of yazeed. Giving him the title of "laeen" serves no purpose except personal hate.

I told you before, am telling you again, i am not shia. I call Yazid "laeen", because he is "laeen", like all other Kings of Ummayadh dynasty minus Umar bin Abdul Aziz. I am very objective in his case. A thief must be called a thief, and nothing else. Yazid is called who he was. I am not among those jahil ahl e sunnat who use 'RA' suffix after his name. There is blood of 72 ahl il bait on his hand. You can ignore it, but i cant. Yes I hate him, for what he did to ahl il bait, every Muslim should hate him.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Some Al-Quran verses are indeed disputable, particularly in determining which verses should be understood literally and which ones should be understood non-literally. Salafi type of person usually don't have clear understanding about non-literal understanding.

Talking about Hadist, some Hadist can also be best understood by using non-literal meaning. Particularly in term of Tauhid teaching, heaven and hell definition. Tasawuf knowledge has used many non-literal interpretation toward Quran and Hadist. Actually for someone understand psychology, they will understand Tasawuf much better and clearly understand which one that should be interpreted as literal and which one should be interpeted as non-literal.

There is a problem here sir . You say that there are disputable verses in Quran. Quran says repeatedly that Quran is free of errors , easy to understand and that we don`t need anything besides Quran (to understand it) . So who should we follow ?

 

[Indos]

There is a problem here sir . You say that there are disputable verses in Quran. Quran says repeatedly that Quran is free of errors , easy to understand and that we don`t need anything besides Quran (to understand it) . So who should we follow ?

Actually Allah said that there are two types of Quran verses, first is the easy understanding and the second is the non-easy understanding. Muhkamat and Mutasyabihat, I think you know that term, friend.

For instant, if ALLAH said in Quran that in heaven we will be put in a high place...the salafi type of person will see it just like really living in a short of higher ground like that, but in term of Tasawuf understanding (soul/psychology) it should be interpreted in a psychological way, like taking a superior mentality ( I think we all know the term of "inferiority complex of Adler"). This is only very short explanation.

The problem is in the Ulama side, the one that has authority to explain Quran and Hadist to common people. Many Ulama is not really Ulama based on Quran definition, and political ruler in the past and today can define which one can be considered as ulama and which one is not.

 

[syedali73]

Where did Allah say that there are two types of verses? Please quote the ayah.

In fact, Allah says:

وَلَقَدْ يَسَّرْنَا الْقُرْآنَ لِلذِّكْرِ فَهَلْ مِن مُّدَّكِرٍ

Hence, indeed, We made this Qur’an easy to bear in mind: who, then, is willing to take it to heart? Surah al-Qamar 54:17.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Actually Allah said that there are two types of Quran verses, first is the easy understanding and the second is the non-easy understanding. Muhkamat and Mutasyabihat, I think you know that term, friend.

For instant, if ALLAH said in Quran that in heaven we will be put in a high place...the salafi type of person will see it just like really living in a short of higher ground like that, but in term of Tasawuf understanding (soul/psychology) it should be interpreted in a psychological way, like taking a superior mentality ( I think we all know the term of "inferiority complex of Adler"). This is only very short explanation.

The problem is in the Ulama side, the one that has authority to explain Quran and Hadist to common people. Many Ulama is not really Ulama based on Quran definition, and political ruler in the past and today can define which one can be considered as ulama and which one is not.

He it is Who has sent down to you the Book; in it are verses fundamental; they are the foundation of the book: others are Mutashabihat. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the Mutashabihat seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows their true reality except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:’ and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. [3:7]

Brother don`t you think that trying to find out the meaning of Mutashabihat (unclear verses) using Hadith and other conjecture is actually rejecting a direct order of Allah almighty ??? No one but Allah knows their hidden meaning , so why seek discord ??

And that is exactly what I am trying to say here , People seek discord , (by following different sets of Ahadith) ignoring Allah`s order and thus all the blood shed and sectarianism in ummah