Islamic History & Archaeology

[Indos]

He it is Who has sent down to you the Book; in it are verses fundamental; they are the foundation of the book: others are Mutashabihat. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the Mutashabihat seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows their true reality except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:’ and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. [3:7]

Brother don`t you think that trying to find out the meaning of Mutashabihat (unclear verses) using Hadith and other conjecture is actually rejecting a direct order of Allah almighty ??? No one but Allah knows their meaning , so why seek discord ??

And that is exactly what I am trying to say here , People seek discord , (by following different sets of Ahadith) ignoring Allah`s order and thus all the blood shed and sectarianism in ummah

Yup, except ALLAH, it means we as Muslim should not become enemy to one another because of different interpretation. In the past, this thing is happening (Muktazilah vs Non Muktazilah).

In my understanding, some verses can only be understood by some one who has experienced it in a soul level and this thing cannot be taken by just lecturing or words, so only ALLAH can give it, not any men. Thats why Hasan Basri said about "secret (knowledge)" in Islam.

I think the dispute that we have in recent time is all taken by literal understanding people, look like Khawarij, Taliban, Al-Qaeda, etc. This is not a fault of Islam, but some people are just heart stone type, it is the curse for them.

Shiah vs Sunni war in Syria and Iraq is actually a political war between leaders. And we can avoid that war by teaching non-literal meaning of Islam (Tasawuf) and understanding psychology. Like we should be able to see the reason behind our desire. I bet many literal understanding people I have seen is still in an area of superiority complex or inferiority complex live, havent yet passed that level yet, thats why this type of people are so easy to get mad if they get critised or ignored. Religion somewhat is still being used by them to pleasure their egos.

 

[M. Sarmad]

it means we as Muslim should not become enemy to one another because of different interpretation. In the past, this thing is happening (Muktazilah vs Non Muktazilah).

Yes bro , that is exactly what I am saying . Muslims got divided into sects because of different interpretations of Quranic verses based on contradicting Ahadith . It happened in past , it is happening today !!! And I personally believe that a "Faqir" is hundred times better than a "Mullah"

 

[syedali73]

He it is Who has sent down to you the Book; in it are verses fundamental; they are the foundation of the book: others are Mutashabihat. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the Mutashabihat seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows their true reality except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:’ and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. [3:7]

Azlan, allow me to clear up the meaning of "Mutashabihat". It does not exactly mean 'unclear' but "symbolic". So Allah is saying that some verses are mohkamat, which means obvious, or to-the-point, or specific, or precise, while others are allegorical, or symbolic, or representative (perhaps best describes Arabic ' Mutashabihat').

For example:

وَبَشِّرِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ أَنَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ ۖ كُلَّمَا رُزِقُوا مِنْهَا مِن ثَمَرَةٍ رِّزْقًا ۙ قَالُوا هَٰذَا الَّذِي رُزِقْنَا مِن قَبْلُ ۖ وَأُتُوا بِهِ مُتَشَابِهًا ۖ وَلَهُمْ فِيهَا أَزْوَاجٌ مُّطَهَّرَةٌ ۖ وَهُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ

And announce good news (to) those who believe and did/made the correct/righteous deeds, that to them (are) treed gardens the rivers flow from beneath it. Whenever they (were) provided for from it from a fruit a provision ,they said: "This (is) what we were provided for from before." And they were given with it similar, and for them in it (are) purified spouses and they are in it immortally/eternally. Surah al Baqrah 2:25.

See, how Allah has used the word "Mutashabiha" in this ayah? It is because for us humans, it is not possible to comprehend extra-terrestrial or heavenly things. To understand them, Allah gives us examples from things we find around ourselves.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Azlan, allow me to clear up the meaning of "Mutashabihat". It does not exactly mean 'unclear' but "symbolic". So Allah is saying that some verses are mohkamat, which means obvious, or to-the-point, or specific, or precise, while others are allegorical, or symbolic, or representative (perhaps best describes Arabic ' Mutashabihat').

For example:

وَبَشِّرِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ أَنَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ ۖ كُلَّمَا رُزِقُوا مِنْهَا مِن ثَمَرَةٍ رِّزْقًا ۙ قَالُوا هَٰذَا الَّذِي رُزِقْنَا مِن قَبْلُ ۖ وَأُتُوا بِهِ مُتَشَابِهًا ۖ وَلَهُمْ فِيهَا أَزْوَاجٌ مُّطَهَّرَةٌ ۖ وَهُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ

And announce good news (to) those who believe and did/made the correct/righteous deeds, that to them (are) treed gardens the rivers flow from beneath it. Whenever they (were) provided for from it from a fruit a provision ,they said: "This (is) what we were provided for from before." And they were given with it similar, and for them in it (are) purified spouses and they are in it immortally/eternally. Surah al Baqrah 2:25.

See, how Allah has used the word "Mutashabiha" in this ayah? It is because for us humans, it is not possible to comprehend extra-terrestrial or heavenly things. To understand them, Allah gives us examples from things we find around ourselves.

Brother I respect your POV . This topic is debatable . Allegorical or symbolic verses are "unclear" and there are certain verses in Quran whose "hidden meaning" is known by almighty alone (or may be Masoomeen and Auliya too) . And surely it is not a contradiction in Quran (as some Islamophobes try to claim). But the orders are clear . Anyways this is a purely theological debate which has got nothing to do with this thread , It is about history and archaeology . I don`t want it to get locked

 

[Indos]

Yes bro , that is exactly what I am saying . Muslims got divided into sects because of different interpretations of Quranic verses based on contradicting Ahadith . It happened in past , it is happening today !!! And I personally believe that a "Faqir" is hundred times better than a "Mullah"

I believe that there are also contradicting Quran verses (without Hadist explanation) as well as Hadist, but if we know the context, it is not contradicting anymore. Sometimes irrelevant hadist is used to interpret Quran verses, and it is somewhat happening because of lack of knowledge/analytical skills /egos.

And I believe that the different in stressing also make the wrong interpretation as well. In my opinion Wahhabi plays too many stressing on hadist than on Quran, and they are too literal understanding people. I believe Today Salafi is quite different of the really teaching of Ibnu Tayyimah and Ibnu Qaim (more Tasawuf understanding). Maybe Hadist Ulama is more about remembering quality, not really analytical people, thus making Islam knowledge get reduced as prophet Muhammad is actually a philosopher and very analytical.

And knowledge and analytical quality is also different between Muslims. So conformity in Islamic understanding is not realistic brother...
Higher in knowledge will get higher understanding as well. Dont blame Hadist, but people.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I believe that there are also contradicting Quran verses (not only Hadist), but if we know the context, it is not contradicting anymore. And I believe that the different in stressing also make the wrong interpretation as well. In my opinion Wahhabi plays too many stressing on hadist than on Quran, and they are too literal understanding people. I believe Today Salafi is quite different of the really teaching of Ibnu Tayyimah and Ibnu Qaim (more Tasawuf understanding). Maybe Hadist Ulama is more about remembering quality, not really analytical people, thus making Islam knowledge get reduced as prophet Muhammad is actually a philosopher and very analytical.

And knowledge and analytical quality is also different between Muslims. So conformity in Islamic understanding is not realistic brother...
Higher in knowledge will get higher understanding as well.

The purpose of this thread was to critically examine the methodologies used by early Islamic historiographers and the prevailing circumstances under which History/Hadith was compiled originally . A closer examination of historical and archaeological evidence reveals that the authenticity of all Hadith and History is highly doubtful .

 

[VCheng]

The purpose of this thread was to critically examine the methodologies used by early Islamic historiographers and the prevailing circumstances under which History/Hadith was compiled originally . A closer examination of historical and archaeological evidence reveals that the authenticity of Hadith and History is highly doubtful .

You may want to look into the history of how the Quran itself was compiled into its final form, including the earliest manuscripts from Sana'a.

 

[M. Sarmad]

including the earliest manuscripts from Sana'a.

The san`a manuscript was a "badly written" copy .

 

[VCheng]

The san`a manuscript was a "badly written" copy .

What does "badly written" mean as you describe in this case?

 

[M. Sarmad]

What does "badly written" mean as you describe in this case?

San'a Koran could just be a bad copy that was being used by people to whom the Uthmanic text had not reached yet . It had minor spelling mistakes .

 

[VCheng]

San'a Koran could just be a bad copy that was being used by people to whom the Uthmanic text had not reached yet . It had minor spelling mistakes .

There are major differences between that text and what exists now, and those differences and their chronology cannot be explained so easily.

 

[M. Sarmad]

There are major differences between that text and what exists now, and those differences and their chronology cannot be explained so easily.

Bring your proof , and if you are referring to allegations made by Puin and Graf von Bothmer ,then you should know that they have been satisfactorily answered by the scholars already

 

[VCheng]

Bring your proof , and if you are referring to allegations made by Puin and Graf von Bothmer ,then you should know that they have been satisfactorily answered by scholars already

Rather than risk the closure of this thread, suffice to say that the point to be taken is that it is possible to create doubt in the authenticity of just about any historical manuscript, including the Quran, and also the hadith. It all depends on the analysis.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Rather than risk the closure of this thread, suffice to say that the point to be taken is that it is possible to create doubt in the authenticity of just about any historical manuscript, including the Quran, and also the hadith. It all depends on the analysis.

No my friend , you seem to have no idea about the difference in compilation of Hadith and Quran . Hadith was compiled two centuries after the death of prophet by common people . A few thousand (out of hundreds of thousands often highly contradicting ahadith) were considered noteworthy , based upon personal opinions , bias and politics . On the other hand , there has never been such a dispute about Quranic verses . The only difference was in its arrangement (Tarteeb) and that was settled during the early days of Islam . The oldest existing Quranic inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock (which date from 70 AH) do not contradict with present day Quran . There has been a debate about certain "words" , but still it does not change the meaning of a whole verse/verses

 

[VCheng]

No my friend , you seem to have no idea about the difference in compilation of Hadith and Quran . Hadith was compiled two centuries after the death of prophet by common people . A few thousand (out of hundreds of thousands often highly contradicting ahadith) were considered noteworthy , based upon personal opinions , bias and politics . On the other hand , there has never been such a dispute about Quranic verses . The only difference was in its arrangement (Tarteeb) and that was settled during the early days of Islam . The oldest existing Quranic inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock (which date from 70 AH) do not contradict with present day Quran . There has been a debate about certain "words" , but still it does not change the meaning of a whole verse/verses

70 years before compilation or 200, or any other similar number, the basic principle of a delay causing doubts about authenticity would apply to both scenarios.