Islam must face its uncomfortable truths

[Samudra]

A particular theology is central to the problem of terrorism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

July 03, 2007

THE latest attack in Britain shows how the Islamist threat is being driven by something much grander than mere foreign policy or feelings of grievance. The perpetrators believe they are soldiers in the perceived historical battle between good and evil.

The methods of attack are becoming more brazen, amateurish and desperate, illustrated most profoundly by the burning terrorist at Glasgow airport shouting "Allah" while struggling with a policeman, but the ideological roots are unchanged.

As a commentator on Muslim affairs and home-grown terrorism, I am often asked whether there is something in Islam itself that is contributing to terrorist acts. As someone who is not a theological expert, I shy away from strong pronouncements on the issue, preferring to discuss the sociological roots of alienation and the modern symbol of protest that Islam has become.

But the question is impossible to avoid and I believe that theology is central and not peripheral to the problem. It is grounded in history, but the sparks have been generated by the information age.

While the images of poverty and war in countries such as Sudan, Palestine or Iraq combined with the relative disadvantage of some Muslim communities in countries such as France or Britain may contribute to radicalisation, the foundation for their acts lies very much in the set of ideas called Islam. I have lost count of the number of occasions disgruntled Muslims have responded to my writings with comments like "Islam is peace" or "You are not a Muslim any more".

Truth be told, I was never a practising Muslim, despite growing up in a Bangladeshi community where religiosity was the norm.

This had more to do with being raised in a secular household and society than any great misgivings about Islam. In fact, I often watched friends who were able to practise a spiritual version of the religion with envy, wishing that I could subscribe to a greater purpose than myself.

But with hindsight, I can see that what we now call extremism was virtually the norm in the community I grew up in. It was completely normal to view Jews as evil and responsible for the ills of the world. It was normal to see the liberal society around us as morally corrupt, its stains to be avoided at all costs. It was normal to see white girls as cheap and easy and to see the ideal of femininity as its antithesis. (This is perhaps those idiots raped a girl and thought 'voices' told him to rape ) These views have been pushed to more private, personal spheres amid the present scrutiny of Muslim communities.

But they remain widespread, as research in Britain showed earlier this year: up to 50 per cent of British Muslims aged between 15 and 29 want to see sharia law taken up in Britain. This needs to be seen in the light of American data collated by the Pew Research Centre that showed close to 80 per cent of American Muslims believed they could move up the social ladder in the US and had no interest in Islamic laws on a public level. Like most things Australian, it is likely we sit somewhere between our British and American cousins.

But the threat is very real. It was reported yesterday that up to 3000 young Muslims are at risk of becoming radicalised in Sydney alone, according to research by a member of the now-disbanded Muslim Community Reference Group, Mustapha Kara-Ali. But when these views morph into the violent political act that is terrorism, it is very much based in theology.

At its core, Islam is deeply sceptical of the idea of a secular state. There is no rendering unto Caesar because state and religion are believed to be inseparable. This idea then interacts with centuries-old edicts of Islamic jurists about how the land of Islam should interact with the world of unbelievers, known as dar ul-kufr. The modern radicals then take it further, declaring that since, with the exception perhaps of Pakistan and Iran, there are no Islamic states, the whole world is effectively the land of the unbelievers. As a result, some radicals believe waging war on the whole world is justified to re-create it as an Islamic state.

They go as far as reclassifying the globe as dar ul-harb, "land of war", apparently allowing Muslims to destroy the sanctity of the five rights that every human is granted under Islam: life, wealth, land, mind and belief. In dar ul-harb, anything goes, including the killing of civilians.

While it may appear absurd to most, this nihilistic but exclusivist world view is clearly attracting significant numbers of young Muslims. British police have suggested the latest attacks and foiled plots may have involved teenagers. But the obvious absurdity of the set of ideas is still grounded in Islam, which, regardless of how theological experts argue, can be interpreted in many ways.

Muslim communities must openly argue precisely what it is they fear and loathe about the West. Much of it centres on sexuality. This is the first step in rooting out any Muslim ambivalence about living in the West. But thereafter, the argument must proceed rapidly to Islamic theology and all its uncomfortable truths - from its repeated glowing references to violence, its obsession with and revulsion at sex and its historical antipathy to the very possibility that reason can exist as separate from God.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,22005648-7583,00.html

Man, the whole essay echoes my sentiments.

I was particularly impressed when he said hating jews and being doubtfull of the liberal is the norm. I don't want to generalise but there is not one Muslim friend I have who has not spoken to me about the 'Jewish conspiracy'. Most of them go to the extent of calling them the most racist people on earth. While they enjoy the comforts of the liberal world they don't mind harping at it. A paranoid mindset.

Out of my 600 posts in this forum you can find a few that laments the rate at which a significant chunk of the young Muslim populace are being radicalised.

I do not know if we have answers for our problems since the time Islam was founded, but I do have a clear idea of what the answers for this post are going to be. Considering the cyclic and most insensible, senseless manner in which debates in threads such as these are prone to go I will restrain myself from posting in manners I usually do.

I just want moderate Muslims to read these.

Sometimes I think these are people most confused. At a personal level they're yearning for the fruits of the liberal non-Muslim world and yet are rooted in the same theology all the time wondering if they're being a good Muslim.

 

[blain2]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,22005648-7583,00.html

Man, the whole essay echoes my sentiments.

I was particularly impressed when he said hating jews and being doubtfull of the liberal is the norm. I don't want to generalise but there is not one Muslim friend I have who has not spoken to me about the 'Jewish conspiracy'. Most of them go to the extent of calling them the most racist people on earth. While they enjoy the comforts of the liberal world they don't mind harping at it. A paranoid mindset.

Out of my 600 posts in this forum you can find a few that laments the rate at which a significant chunk of the young Muslim populace are being radicalised.

I do not know if we have answers for our problems since the time Islam was founded, but I do have a clear idea of what the answers for this post are going to be. Considering the cyclic and most insensible, senseless manner in which debates in threads such as these are prone to go I will restrain myself from posting in manners I usually do.

I just want moderate Muslims to read these.

Sometimes I think these are people most confused. At a personal level they're yearning for the fruits of the liberal non-Muslim world and yet are rooted in the same theology all the time wondering if they're being a good Muslim.

Well the question is what is Moderate? Someone who bends to the norms of the west and falls in line?

The fact that the above article quotes the data from the Pew poll (of which I was a part) should tell you that its not Islam, rather the understanding of Islam that is typically the issue.

Moderation in my views is something that is not what someoe outside of Islam calls for, its a message that at least I have learned from the great Prophet of Islam Muhammed (pbuh) who called for moderation in everything. I moderation means that I should not have any moral guidance over the way I live my life within a society, then I say no to it.

Fruits of non-Muslims world are just as fruits of Muslim world were yearned for by the west living in dark ages. So its simply a matter of time before the Islamic world catches up with the advances in the west (maybe in another 200-300 years)..but the key issues is that maybe Muslims want the best of both, is that too much to ask? Why can't we practice Islam and also enjoy the economic well being etc. that your so called "liberal non-Muslim" world is enjoying?

Hating Jews is not something ingrained in Muslims. There is considerable illiteracy in the Muslim world. With all that is happening in ME, the Jews bear a considerable brunt of the blame game. Maybe a lasting peace in ME would be the answer, however the primary reason for blaming Jews for all ills by some is lack of objective thinking (as a result of lack of education). We all have our perceived biases (I know plenty of Hindus having the same about Muslims firsthand) however closer interaction is what gets us around it.

On the issue of the crackpots calling for Islamic law in UK, the bottom line is that its a grouping of certain people and not the vast majority of Muslims living in UK. While Muslims can hope and pray that others accept Islam and believe as they do (which is nothing different from what a proselytizing Christian would believe), there is absolutely nothing in Islam which calls for taking over a foreign land by force and subjecting the people to forced conversion. On the contrary, I am commanded by Islam to respect and adhere to the laws of the land in which I live...for all those weirdos in UK who want their way of life imposed on others, I have only one thing to say, pack up your bags and go back to a Muslims country.....there is plenty of work they can do in those countries.

Considering the cyclic and most insensible, senseless manner in which debates in threads such as these are

You know I read the above point a few points and I realized that I am also quite tired of dispelling impressions about myself and Islam in the minds of people...usually its a long discussion which holds me responsible for the suicide bombings, then onto 911, then the issue of the so-called "pending takeover of the world by Muslims"...I just went through this episode on a flight with a very nice lady...it was just amazing to see how little people know about Muslims and Islam and most of the information is learned from Media second-hand.

In any case, crackpots abound in the Islamic world, there is no denying that, however once again, the Muslim world is a whole lot more complex than just the crackpot community representing it. Unfortunately most people do not bother looking beyond.

 

[Bull]

U are absolutly remarkable mate!!!

 

[Samudra]

Moderation in my views is something that is not what someoe outside of Islam calls for, its a message that at least I have learned from the great Prophet of Islam Muhammed (pbuh) who called for moderation in everything

You go back to theology. I would like Muslims to use their own rational thought in isolation from religion/theology. Recall that Tanveer says theology is central to the problem.

There is considerable illiteracy in the Muslim world.

It is quite the same situation with the non-Muslim world as well.

 

[blain2]

You go back to theology. I would like Muslims to use their own rational thought in isolation from religion/theology. Recall that Tanveer says theology is central to the problem.

We do use our own rational thought, its just that it has to be in in sync with living according to the injunctions of the Almighty. His injuctions pervade throughout our lives (we are no different in this than the original Hasidic jews for that matter...torah for them dictates their entire life, governing, living etc.).

It is quite the same situation with the non-Muslim world as well.

True but minus the geo-political drama and historical baggage around it.

 

[Adux]

If the world is still around for 300-400 years

 

[blain2]

If the world is still around for 300-400 years

True, lets hope so.

 

[Samudra]

We do use our own rational thought, its just that it has to be in in sync with living according to the injunctions of the Almighty.

That my friend is what I call going back to theology - which is causing us quite a few problems.

True but minus the geo-political drama and historical baggage around it

Everybody has their problems. The Sikhs had big trouble too. The Tamils are still fighting....the Tibetans are still being shot for trying to escape to India. Thats just in my part of the world.

Imagine how many more Kaffirs are having bigger trouble in the deserts and forests of Africa, the problems of drug lords in South America...the list simply goes on.


___


I picked up this part from one of your posts in another thread. I find it alarming that you should see all Muslims worldwide as a Nation.

Overall the Muslim nation is suffering.

Darul Islam. Darul Harb.

Personally, I'm happy to see Muslims aligning themselves with their nations rather than aligning together to become a 'nation'. That way the political character of Islam is undermined.

 

[roadrunner]

I don't want to generalise but there is not one Muslim friend I have who has not spoken to me about the 'Jewish conspiracy'.

This strikes a chord with you because you want to associate yourselves with Western people (i.e. people whiter than yourselves). This is inherent in the beliefs of Hinduism re the Aryan perspective. However the definition of Aryan will disappoint you. Reminds me of the Indian fella sticking up flags of India and Israel on a forum

I don't want to generalize but there is not one Hindu friend who has not spoken to me about the 'Pakistan/Muslim/Christian conspiracy'

The Muslim Conspiracy - that Jai Hind is completely innocent in Kashmir, and Islam is just violent and wants to take it by force from the innocent Hindutva fanatics
The Christian Conspiracy - to convert all Hindus to Christianity
(there's many websites on it)

Article seems to echo the sentiments of the minority radicals in any community.

The figure of 50% wanting Sharia law in the UK is bullshyt for sure. Polls are carefully selected by people with agendas wanting to illustrate a preconceived notion.

 

[blain2]

That my friend is what I call going back to theology - which is causing us quite a few problems.



Everybody has their problems. The Sikhs had big trouble too. The Tamils are still fighting....the Tibetans are still being shot for trying to escape to India. Thats just in my part of the world.

Imagine how many more Kaffirs are having bigger trouble in the deserts and forests of Africa, the problems of drug lords in South America...the list simply goes on.

Right and all of them have reacted to their grief in one way or another...mostly with violence.


___

I picked up this part from one of your posts in another thread. I find it alarming that you should see all Muslims worldwide as a Nation.

Why is it alarming to you if Jews can see themselves as one nation? If born again Christians all over the world see themselves as one nation??

Darul Islam. Darul Harb.

What is it that you understand from Darul-Harb and Darul-Islam?? I live in Darul-harb as a practicing Muslim. I have no stupid hidden agenda for my neighbors...they are to be judged just as I am by the Almighty on the day of judgement....if they are to be judged then I am not responsible for them being Muslims or not...I have no desire to force it upon them (many people think that Muslims have this mighty plan to wage a huge war against those living in non-Muslim lands and converting them)...this is their free will...just like I could care less what you believe in...as long as I understand that I am answerable for my actions then I am fine. Lets not add sinister ideas into this "darul-harb" definition. Its simply a land where Islamic law is not implemented. Muslims are allowed to live in it, peacefully, under the law of the land. Those who break it are not Mujahids, they are idiots on a self-rightous trip.

Personally, I'm happy to see Muslims aligning themselves with their nations rather than aligning together to become a 'nation'. That way the political character of Islam is undermined.

Muslims think of themselves as a nation because we believe that in Islam we have something good to share with others. We believe that we are the followers of Abrahamic religion which is what God has ordained for humanity. However this is the extent of it. Its a belief. I am free to believe in it and follow it, however I am not allowed to go beyond this limit by forcing others over to my belief. This is a problem among some radical Muslims who believe that they have to force others over to their POV. Non-Muslims are not the only ones with whom these people have gripes, they pick up fights with other Muslims all the time as well. As I have said earlier, politics and living Islam go hand in hand.

 

[Samudra]

Right and all of them have reacted to their grief in one way or another...mostly with violence.

Right, but went back to theology and sought a banner of religion to fight - most never did. Muslims by going back to banner of religion associate every other Muslim on earth on to the issue. That puts them Muslims against anybody doing anything against Muslims. There you go - the war of wars, the coming conflict, the clash of civilisations.

You could argue that the world then would be better off by keeping away from Muslims. But hey they sit on valuable land,oil and whatever. Men of all religions want resources and they fight equally hard to gain them.

When Muslimsn of two sects themselves are butchering each other with much eagerness you can't fault a Kaffir eh!

Why is it alarming to you if Jews can see themselves as one nation?

Frankly, be it with the Jews or any religion which has a political overtone - their levels of radicalisation, of going back to the books are pretty less when compared to Muslims. And they're in small numbers as well. Muslims on the other hand breed quite fast.

If tomorrow Jews reach the current status of Muslims, heck I'm going to be saying the same things to them as well.

Lets not add sinister ideas into this "darul-harb" definition. Its simply a land where Islamic law is not implemented

With a little radicalisation or lets say going back to the books and our wonderfull ways of interpreting them - a Muslim can be convinced Darul Harb has to be made Darul Islam and that Darul Harb is fair game. That is what is happening - believe it or not, deny it or not, in quite a grand scale across the globe. The source, atleast a significant amount of it, lies in the theology.

As I have said earlier, politics and living Islam go hand in hand.

Which is exactly what leads us to more trouble.

So then, I think I have said what I had to. The point has been made. Not coming back to thread unless we have something really juicy or interesting to talk about. Don't want to go in circles....not when you're already doing that eight hours a day with drunk customers during the weekends for a living.

BTW roadrunner, spare us your ignorance.

 

[kidwaibhai]

Basically according to the West any muslim dude that stands up for their countries interest is considered a Islamic Crazy *** Radical.
Case in point the people who want to free their land in chechnya are called radical because they are opposing oppression of the Russians.
Palistenians are called radicals because they are not toeing the line that has been set for them by the west and that is why hamas is being starved of resources.
Secondly if there was such a big freaken problem with the theology of Islam don't you think that every muslim would be up in arms at this point in time.
Infact i see this as a teastment to our patients and resolve that we are called potential terrorists in every country we go. Our people are killed everyday in every corner of the world yet still we remain silent. Our children our told everyday that their religion is savage and ruthless yet still we remain silent. When we fight for democracy in the middle east the west supports autocratic genocidal dictators who butcher us for raising our voice yet still we remain silent. We can be picked at any point in time and be transported to any country and be tortured for years yet still we remain silent.
P.S if you follow my post i am not that religious but this kind of **** just pisses me off.

 

[roadrunner]

Basically according to the West any muslim dude that stands up for their countries interest is considered a Islamic Crazy *** Radical.
Case in point the people who want to free their land in chechnya are called radical because they are opposing oppression of the Russians.
Palistenians are called radicals because they are not toeing the line that has been set for them by the west and that is why hamas is being starved of resources.
Secondly if there was such a big freaken problem with the theology of Islam don't you think that every muslim would be up in arms at this point in time.
Infact i see this as a teastment to our patients and resolve that we are called potential terrorists in every country we go. Our people are killed everyday in every corner of the world yet still we remain silent. Our children our told everyday that their religion is savage and ruthless yet still we remain silent. When we fight for democracy in the middle east the west supports autocratic genocidal dictators who butcher us for raising our voice yet still we remain silent. We can be picked at any point in time and be transported to any country and be tortured for years yet still we remain silent.
P.S if you follow my post i am not that religious but this kind of **** just pisses me off.

Perhaps it's true, but this sort of stuff isn't going to do anything. Pakistan has the right idea - it can defend itself against virtually any country now - will anyone invade it, colonize it, oppress it ever again? I hardly think so with all those nukes the Army has. All that is needs is ICBM's and then noone anywhere can do anything. The basic point is, to stop the oppression, get the technology, rather than make some irrational manoeveurs that won't solve anything or help any camp.

I much prefer Paksitan's position to any countries position right now. I guess Turkey has some decent conventional weaponry, but soon as the US decides to cut off the supply, it's out. It doesnt have self sufficiency, only Pakistan really has this now. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a couple of sneakly ICBM's up Musharraf's military sleeve.

 

[blain2]

Right, but went back to theology and sought a banner of religion to fight - most never did. Muslims by going back to banner of religion associate every other Muslim on earth on to the issue. That puts them Muslims against anybody doing anything against Muslims. There you go - the war of wars, the coming conflict, the clash of civilisations.

You could argue that the world then would be better off by keeping away from Muslims. But hey they sit on valuable land,oil and whatever. Men of all religions want resources and they fight equally hard to gain them.

When Muslimsn of two sects themselves are butchering each other with much eagerness you can't fault a Kaffir eh!



Frankly, be it with the Jews or any religion which has a political overtone - their levels of radicalisation, of going back to the books are pretty less when compared to Muslims. And they're in small numbers as well. Muslims on the other hand breed quite fast.

If tomorrow Jews reach the current status of Muslims, heck I'm going to be saying the same things to them as well.



With a little radicalisation or lets say going back to the books and our wonderfull ways of interpreting them - a Muslim can be convinced Darul Harb has to be made Darul Islam and that Darul Harb is fair game. That is what is happening - believe it or not, deny it or not, in quite a grand scale across the globe. The source, atleast a significant amount of it, lies in the theology.



Which is exactly what leads us to more trouble.

So then, I think I have said what I had to. The point has been made. Not coming back to thread unless we have something really juicy or interesting to talk about. Don't want to go in circles....not when you're already doing that eight hours a day with drunk customers during the weekends for a living.

BTW roadrunner, spare us your ignorance.

"Muslims on the other hand breed quite fast."

Nice one coming from someone born in India...Hindus have got the Chinese beat in terms of reproducing and here you have the gall to claim this about Muslims.

No sure where this discussion is taking us?...you keep on going back to theology..if theology is really the big concern then let the lines be drawn...so be it. Muslims are not going to step back from relying on theology for guidance...we have not done so ever since the inception of Islam and I do not see us doing that in the future. What Muslims have done is that within the parameters of the same theology, they have worked out things peacefully with other peoples for the past 1400 years. I do not see any reason why Muslims have to stop relying on theology to get over the problem that is only half of their own making.

As Musharraf says it, lets take the two pronged approach. We raise awareness, literacy and increase social upliftment, the powers involved in conflicts take the other prong and resolve long festering issues involving Muslim peoples. If others dont want to work it out then Muslims will work it out on their own and this will take longer.

As far as your point about Dar-al-harb being converted to Dar-al-Islam, well that is your skewed understanding. I have been a Muslim all my life (more than 2/3 of my life have been spent in the west) and I consider myself to be a practicing Muslim and a law abiding citizen of my happily adopted land and I have never heard any mainstream Muslim talk about converting the west into Muslim lands. So lets leave the fringe elements out of the argument (however if your sole argument is based around the skewed thinking of a few Muslims who do espouse these views then you are on the wrong forum as none of the Muslims here have any such stupid desires). It actually is a over-hyped, misplaced notion about a group of people which you do not really understand.

 

[Cheetah786]

Right and all of them have reacted to their grief in one way or another...mostly with violence.
Why is it alarming to you if Jews can see themselves as one nation? If born again Christians all over the world see themselves as one nation??
What is it that you understand from Darul-Harb and Darul-Islam?? I live in Darul-harb as a practicing Muslim. I have no stupid hidden agenda for my neighbors...they are to be judged just as I am by the Almighty on the day of judgement....if they are to be judged then I am not responsible for them being Muslims or not...I have no desire to force it upon them (many people think that Muslims have this mighty plan to wage a huge war against those living in non-Muslim lands and converting them)...this is their free will...just like I could care less what you believe in...as long as I understand that I am answerable for my actions then I am fine. Lets not add sinister ideas into this "darul-harb" definition. Its simply a land where Islamic law is not implemented. Muslims are allowed to live in it, peacefully, under the law of the land. Those who break it are not Mujahids, they are idiots on a self-rightous trip.



Muslims think of themselves as a nation because we believe that in Islam we have something good to share with others. We believe that we are the followers of Abrahamic religion which is what God has ordained for humanity. However this is the extent of it. Its a belief. I am free to believe in it and follow it, however I am not allowed to go beyond this limit by forcing others over to my belief. This is a problem among some radical Muslims who believe that they have to force others over to their POV. Non-Muslims are not the only ones with whom these people have gripes, they pick up fights with other Muslims all the time as well. As I have said earlier, politics and living Islam go hand in hand.

MY Hats of to you sir brilliant just plane brilliant.