Islam and Democracy

[Solomon2]

"Humanistic ideas-freedom of thought, the sovereignty of the individual, the right to freedom of action, tolerance--were propagated in the West through secular schools. With a few rare exceptions (notably Turkey), the modern Muslim state has never called itself secular, and has never committed itself to teaching individual initiative. On the contrary, individualism always held a rather ambiguous place among the "reformers" of the nineteenth-century nationalist movement. This movement, focused on the struggle against colonization and therefore viscerally anti-Western, was obliged to root itself more deeply than ever in Islam. Facing the militaristic, imperialistic West, Muslim nationalists were forced to take shelter in their past and erect it as a rampart-cultural hudud to exorcise colonial violence. The Muslim past they reactivated did not anchor modern identity in the rationalist tradition. In fact, the nationalists were prisoners of a historical situation that inevitably made modernity a no-win choice. Either they might construct modernity by claiming the humanistic heritage of the Western colonizer at the risk of losing unity (for when we speak about the rationalist tradition, we are talking about ray, "individual opinion," and ʿaql, "reason," and therefore about the possibility of divergence of opinion); or they could carefully safeguard a sense of unity in the face of the colonizer by clinging to the past, favoring the tradition of ta'a, "obedience," and foreclosing all Western innovation.

"Alas, it was this second solution that the nationalist politicians more or less involuntarily chose. The essence of the two rationalist heritages, both the Muslim and the Western, was freedom of thought, freedom to differ. This was sacrificed to save unity. What the politicians and reformers of the 1920s and 1930s didn't clearly see was that by shutting out reason, Muslims weakened themselves more than ever...

"Once colonization had ended after World War II, the newly independent Muslim states did not renounce their vendetta against reason. They fought against the advances of Enlightenment philosophy and banned Western humanism as foreign and "imported," calling the intellectuals who studied it enemy agents and traitors to the nationalist cause. At the same time, they committed themselves to the massive importation of weapons from the West...

"American secular humanism was developed not so much against religion as against state interference in religion and especially manipulation of it...Preaching tolerance and freedom of thought, secular humanism is an attack not on God but on government officialdom and a ban on its use of government funds and institutions to propagate religion, any religion.

"The majority of the colonized countries - that is, the non-Wester countries - never experienced that phase of history so indispensable to the development of the scientific spirit, durich which the state and its institutions became the means of transmitting the ideas of tolerance and respect for the individual...

"As for the governments, there are some Muslim regimes that find their interests better protected iv they base their legitimacy on cultural and symbolic grounds other than on democratic principles. The sacred, the past, ancesotr worship seem to be the chosen grounds in most cases. This category groups together regimes as different as the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the military regime of Zia al-Haq in Pakistan, and the Sudanese regime that terrorizes its people in the name of the shari'a...

"When I visit a Muslim country, whether Pakistan or Egypt or Algeria, what strikes me as a sociologist is first of all the strong feeling of bitterness in the people...

"...we run up against the limits of the traditional symbolic heritage, which doesn't make it possible...to conceive of a world where [the Muslim worker] would have the right to medical coverage and social security, or even less to participate in such a world. For that to happen -"

- Extracts from Islam and Democracy: Fear of the Modern World, Fatema Mernissi, Perseus Publishing, 1992.

 

[kidwaibhai]

I cant talk about other countries but when it comes to Pakistan when the people vote in this country they dont vote for the theological parties they vote for parties that are for the most part non-religious in there orientation.
If we look at the PPP this party is basically center-left and champions for its people rights of workers not only in the factories but also for those working in the fields.
If we look at the MQM it is a thoroughly secular party and campaigns against the religious parties and for the most part defeats them and also wants to abolish the feudal system in Pakistan.
When we look at the ANP it is also a thoroughly secular party and is also believed to be center-left in its orientation.
So when i look at these excerpts i find generalization to the Nth degree when it comes to Pakistan. Plus she takes snippets of history to justify her view.
I think where i stand is that there is no problem between Islam and Democracy. Democracy is a evolutionary process it betters itself and times goes by. Frankly i am sick and tired of people telling me that my religion is not compatible the system of the government that i want because it is my decision to decide which type of government i want. if given a choice i will always chose democracy and yes i as a muslim dont feel any GOD DAMN contradiction in this statement.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Wow! Solomon2! This is a totally flame baited thread. Why do you want to throw out such raw meat?

 

[Kompromat]

A jew does not look good Talking about Islam as we dont give a Sh!t about Judaism or what do they do in their areas of jurisdiction .
This is what we expect not any one to tell us how to live !!!!!!!!!

we have our own beliefs and own way of living a doctrine that works for us doesn't matter it works for others or not?

Secularism is a white elephant , and its flag carriers have BLOOD on their hands of the innocent and weak humanity!

United stats/ UK / Israel who lobbied for secularism for decades couldn't set an example for others to adopt it!
Rather they become hungry vampires and shed blood all over the place...

Why one earth would Muslims change their system and adopt such a brutal system which still "Enslaves women" for the fulfillment of sexual desires , which has made the world the most dangerous place to live upon.

which failed to stop nuclear attack on Civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki .


@ Solomon : i would suggest you better stop posting this sort of stuff which has got nothing to do with our Forum .

Your anti Islamic believes are better off in your own mind not in a place where people have a lot to say and they have been doing it for centuries .

Regards:

 

[Solomon2]

A jew does not look good Talking about Islam...This is what we expect not any one to tell us how to live -

Correction: The author is a Muslim from Morocco.

 

[Awesome]

Surely we deserve more respect than that... Preconceptions 1 Reality 0.

One example, it is WE Pakistanis, all of us Muslim, that are running probably one of the most free board on the web where we allow absolute clash of ideas. Our faith does not come in between the rules of debate.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, democracy, freedom of speech, tolerance are all concepts that the majority of Pakistanis are willing to fight for. As far as Pakistan is concerned, they have voted out all Islamic parties this time around in elections and have voted for the most secular party of the country, PPP. Even the state center in Peshawar is controlled by a secular ANP.

I'll tell you what you're right, Islamic countries do have a poor record in it all. That's probably because they haven't had much freedoms in their entire life, most don't know any better and their leaders have pitched Islam in between their freedom. Its not really Islam's fault too, its just the damn leaders.

 

[Awesome]

@ Solomon : i would suggest you better stop posting this sort of stuff which has got nothing to do with our Forum .
Regards:

Its perfectly allowed as long as the discussion centers around Pakistan only.

We're not responsible for some sort of Muslim World.

 

[Kompromat]

This is what i meant ...

 

[Solomon2]

Surely we deserve more respect than that... Preconceptions 1 Reality 0.

The book is seventeen years old, so it's a bit dated.

WE Pakistanis, all of us Muslim, that are running probably one of the most free board on the web where we allow absolute clash of ideas. Our faith does not come in between the rules of debate.

Shall I quote you the next time one of my posts is deleted or a thread of mine closed?

As far as Pakistan is concerned, they have voted out all Islamic parties this time around in elections and have voted for the most secular party of the country, PPP.

A fact not appreciated enough outside of Pakistan.

I'll tell you what you're right, Islamic countries do have a poor record in it all. That's probably because they haven't had much freedoms in their entire life, most don't know any better and their leaders have pitched Islam in between their freedom. Its not really Islam's fault too, its just the damn leaders.

It sounds very much like you agree with Ms. Mernissi. What she wrote about "the strong feeling of bitterness in the [Pakistani] people" - is that true, too?

 

[Xeric]

Solomon, how many times have you seen the Muslim world talking and worrying about your way of practices?

We are not bothered what you do and think unless it has some sorta bearing on us, directly or indirectly. It is that simple.

Now you can yap about the Islam that most of you and likes have perceived it to be over the decades-i am referring to the kind if Islam practiced by TTP, AQ and those who talk bitter about jews/christian whatever.

But fortunately there isnt much similarity or i must no commonality at all between these two 'sects' (if we i should call them such) of Islam.

You and us very well know what true Islam is and how does it presents itself, but (un)fortunately blinded and deafened like you have been deliberately been skipping the bright side and showing/portraying the false (NOT dark) side of the religion with full zeal and zest! At times you have been successful but most of the times, you have been kicked hard.

i find no point in discussing the topic AT ALL as we all (including yourself) are very well aware of the true side of Islam and it's way of living and we ALL do agree that the religion pose no threat to anyone who/whatsoever. Your leaders admit that and a large number of people also do so, but then there are Solomons and likes who cant be straightened!

 

[jamal18]

The writer is someone with a strong hatred for islam.

Nothing new.

 

[Solomon2]

Solomon, how many times have you seen the Muslim world talking and worrying about your way of practices?..We are not bothered what you do and think unless it has some sorta bearing on us, directly or indirectly...You and us very well know -

This is not about me. This thread is about Islam, democracy, and Pakistan. Mernissi is a Muslim sociologist and clearly wants to promote this discussion among other Muslims. Note that I have not posted a personal opinion about Islam or about what the author wrote in this thread.

 

[Xeric]

This is not about me. This thread is about Islam, democracy, and Pakistan. Mernissi is a Muslim sociologist and clearly wants to promote this discussion among other Muslims. Note that I have not posted a personal opinion about Islam or about what the author wrote in this thread.

Not exactly!

BTW, do you still need to grow up?!

 

[Xeric]

Well Sol if you find that 'rude', let me take the opportunity to be 'ruder'"

This is so full of lies and half-truths that I think we can classify this as a convenient narrative for ideological purposes and dismiss it accordingly. It is, however, an excellent example of how willing many people are to look at such things without being critical.




The above statement is solmon's own statement that he post at another thread pertaining to Rothchilds, well and here he does the same thing in reciprocation:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-happened-planet-without-re-2.html#post559790

 

[apophenia]

Those who argue that Islam and democracy are incompatible only support the imbecile’s who feel that autocracy is intrinsic to the Islamic system. Democracy as presented is not as it appears to be wholly owned by the West. Islam stresses upon on equality, accountability and respect for diversity which is comparable with democracy, which supposedly the west thrives on to say the least.