ISI vs the CIA - Tensions and Mistrust Rise

[Mutee]

Is it in bahgwat Geeta or some other book? Guide me ?

 

[Mutee]

What's taking you so long ?

 

[Mutee]

Oh u left my friend well in that case I shall leave too

 

[AAtish]

BUt it is liberalism which is devoid of religion cast and creed and that is what our friend stated as a situation that will solve pakistan's problem. So what is the final verdict?

First of All.. sorry to reply late as there are matters in my real life which i have to take care of..

Coming to the point you raised.. there are two things why you are taking our discussion the way you have taken..

1: Secularism is just a tiny part of Islam.. taken out of context.. There cannot be any "real" secularism.. and if you go on the root of what secularist ideology is.. then i'm afraid there isn't any government in the world which supports it 100%.. It hasn't worked for any government and it won't work for any in the future..

2: Study Islam!.. Not from media.. but from Quran and Hadees.. You'll get a clear picture of what we are stating here.. Its not only a religion to believe in "superstitions".. It rather gives you a complete way of life.. a complete system which is fool proof..

Keeping those points in the view.. We can deduce that:
- Secularism CANNOT be implemented completely
- Islam CAN be implemented completely and it gives solutions to all the problems.

So if the 1% "cream" (as they like to call themselves) can be taken out, and the rules of Islam are implemented in Pakistan.. It would be a very peaceful, tolerant, happy but STRONG country.. but the problem is.. there are too many factors in Pakistan in shape of baba ji, hafiz sahib, molvi sahib, peer sahib which translate Islam to their own likings and there are a lot of illiterate people who believe them without any doubt.. so there cannot be a mutual understanding scenario AT THE MOMENT.. thats why i was saying that let the nation grow a little, Let them people seek for themselves.. Time will come when they will decide by themselves what is good for them..

Hope i clarified myself..

 

[1 ummah]

. but the problem is.. there are too many factors in Pakistan in shape of baba ji, hafiz sahib, molvi sahib, peer sahib which translate Islam to their own likings and there are a lot of illiterate people who believe them without any doubt.. so there cannot be a mutual understanding scenario AT THE MOMENT.. thats why i was saying that let the nation grow a little, Let them people seek for themselves.. Time will come when they will decide by themselves what is good for them..

Hope i clarified myself..

...
no bro those peer n firka parast molvi n their followers r not the hurdle to implement islam,(its absence of ansaar!) n u cannot change their mentality until true teaching of islam r common n that will happen wen we have islamic gov..

 

[mr42O]

They won't lose as long as isi acts just like another arm of CIA in Pakistan I see too many posts here claiming how Americans are losing and how are we kicking their butt very heroically but the sad reality is we are just their servants and the army and isi is killing on their behalf and are only loyal to us dollars I wonder why no one questions the loyalty of the top generals in Pakistan

Hard to say but after raymond case i have lost all my faith in Army and in ISI. U are 101% correct.

Few of cases to mention. Who and how was Affia Saddique captured and given to USA ? Who were these Pakistan ppl who had all info about her ?

Cases in Baluchistan were ppl are caputred and never turns back. Its USA own intersset if Baluchistan become own stat. Why USA help baluchi wanted terrorist to hide in Afghanistan that travel to swizerland ?

For prove me wrong ISI must do some thing quit different than they are otherwise i am 101% agree with u.

I know from my family who are in army top main posts in army are held by ppl who are american pito who give order to rest of army who are pure Pakistani and want to die for Pakistan

 

[Dance]

ISLAMABAD: Joint US-Pakistan intelligence operations have been halted since late January, a senior Pakistani intelligence officer said on Saturday, reflecting strain in a relationship seen as crucial to combating militants and the war in Afghanistan.

Uneasy US-Pakistani ties have become even more tense after a string of diplomatic disputes so far this year, including a massive drone strike in March and the case of Raymond Davis, a CIA contractor who shot

dead two Pakistanis in Lahore.
“Presently, joint operations are on hold,” said a senior Pakistani intelligence officer, adding that they were halted after Davis killed the two men. A Pakistani court has since acquitted Davis of murder and he has been released.

Previous joint operations between the powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency and the CIA have led to the capture of high-profile al Qaeda and Taliban leaders, including Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, the mastermind of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.

“The agency’s ties to the ISI have been strong over the years, and when there are issues to sort out, we work through them,” said a CIA spokesman, George Little. “That’s the sign of a healthy partnership.”
But a US official familiar with the state of relations said the Pakistanis are making more effort to curb, restrict, or at least more intensely monitor, CIA activities. The revelation that armed CIA contractors such as Davis were working in Pakistan deeply angered and embarrassed the ISI.

“It is our land. We know how to tackle things. We will set the rules of the game. It is not Afghanistan,” a senior Pakistani military official told Reuters. “They have to cease spying operations.”

Since then, a few dozen contractors the ISI says are associated with the agency the exact number is unclear and part of a parallel intelligence network have quickly and quietly left the country.

A small contingent of American troops training Pakistanis in counter-insurgency is also in danger of being reduced.
Drone strike down

The frequency of drone strikes, an unacknowledged CIA program that the United States considers its most successful weapon against al Qaeda and the Taliban leadership and which relies on at least some Pakistani cooperation, also has fallen, with just nine strikes in March compared to a peak of 22 in September 2010.

“It is very clear that intrusion into our territory is no longer acceptable and drone flights inside our territory are an intrusion,” the military official said, suggesting the drones could be shot down. Civilian casualties inflame anti-American sentiment in Pakistan and bolster support for the militants.

The latest strike, on March 17, killed at least 45 people, leading Pakistan’s chief of the army, General Ashfaq Kayani, to issue a rare, public criticism of the United States, which in turn is frustrated at Pakistan’s apparent reluctance to launch a major military offensive against militants in its tribal North Waziristan region that borders Afghanistan.

A semi-annual White House report on Afghanistan and Pakistan harshly criticised Pakistan as having “no clear path toward defeating the insurgency.” In equally harsh terms, Pakistan rejected the report and said it would deal with insurgents in its own way.

The strain in relations could hinder efforts by the Obama administration to get the annual $1.5 billion in economic assistance for Pakistan appropriated for the 2012 fiscal year through Congress, said Bruce Riedel, a former CIA Middle East expert who has advised the White House.

“Foreign aid is always something that’s easy to cut by a budget-tightening Congress, and foreign aid to Pakistan would be the easiest thing to cut,” he said. “It’s very hard to persuade congressmen why we should be giving money to a country that supports the Afghan Taliban.”
But no matter how bruised they become, US-Pakistani ties are too strategic to unravel.

“We need to work together more transparently and not let incidents like Raymond Davis damage the relationship,” the Pakistani intelligence officer said. “The stakes are too high.”

Pak-US intel operations frozen as ties remain strained – The Express Tribune

 

[BATMAN]

Another balckwater operative released quietly by judiciary.

US citizen in visa violation released
March 09, 2011

PESHAWAR: A US citizen said to have been working for a private security company and detained after he outstayed his Pakistani visa, was released on bail on Tuesday, jail officials said.

“We have released US national Aaron Mark DeHaven after receiving the court orders,” deputy superintendent of the local jail, Iftikhar Ahmed, told AFP.

DeHaven was arrested last month from a residential area in the northwestern city of Peshawar, close to the lawless tribal belt near the Afghan border.

His bail application was accepted by additional district and sessions judge Altaf-ur-Rehman on Monday.

He was ordered to submit a surety bond of Rs2 million ($23,500).

“The bail amount was paid and DeHaven was released today,” his lawyer Sardar Mohammad Raza said.

The judge has ordered DeHaven not to leave the area without informing police until his case is concluded.

Relations between Pakistan and the United States were strained by the arrest in late January of a CIA contractor identified as Raymond Davis, who has been charged with murder after shooting dead two men in Lahore.

 

[Mech]

I feel as if the GOP is trying too hard to please the americans. Question - Is pakistan's willingness to compromise a good omen or bad? and, what, in your opinion; is the GOP trying to gain out of this policy of compromisation?

 

[BATMAN]

Present govt. is not doing any favor to US.
all, judiciary, ministers, ambassadors.... are indebted to US.
Who cares if Pak army is struggling and risking lives in mountains.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Good , keeps the bombing down doesn't it

 

[Mujahid]

ISLAMABAD: Joint US-Pakistan intelligence operations have been halted since late January, a senior Pakistani intelligence officer said, reflecting strain in a relationship seen as crucial to combating militants and the war in Afghanistan.

Uneasy US-Pakistani ties have become even more tense after a string of diplomatic disputes so far this year, including a massive drone strike in March and the case of Raymond Davis, a CIA contractor who shot dead two Pakistanis on Jan 27 in Lahore.

“Presently, joint operations are on hold,” said a senior Pakistani intelligence officer, adding that they were halted after Davis killed the two men. A court in Lahore has since acquitted Davis of murder and he has been released.

CIA-ISI joint operations stand frozen – The Express Tribune

 

[BATMAN]

It is wrong to say diplomatic problem... Pakistan foreign ministry is the one who issue visa to weapon loaded persons.
Why does media always have to mislead the nation.

Obviously, it was army as usual stop co-operating and most likely this renewal is upon internal diplomatic pressure.

 

[Mudair Jalil]

So you want to say that our foreign ministry is involved with them...................................

 

[53fd]

Ongoing Fallout from Raymond Davis Affairs Reveals Extent of Our Activities in Pakistan
By: emptywheel Tuesday April 12, 2011 3:09 am

When the US detained the Kuwaiti-Pakistani Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and interrogated him for years (including at least a month of harsh torture), he revealed a handful of al Qaeda operatives in the US. When Pakistan held the American contractor, Raymond Davis, and–as this NYT article specifies–had Pakistan’s intelligence service ISI interrogate him for 14 days, that appears to have led to the identification of hundreds of Americans working in Pakistan on activities not authorized by the Pakistani government.

As the article reveals, there are four things we’re doing in Pakistan to which the Pakistanis object:

1) Spying on Pakistan’s nuclear program
2) Infiltration of Lashkar-e-Taiba, the group that carried out the Mumbai bombing as well as (the WSJ adds) the Haqqani network
3) Deploying Special Forces personnel in the name of training Frontier Corps but using them to spy instead
4) Conducting the drone program unilaterally, without sharing targeting information with Pakistan

Now, we knew all of this was going on. Of course we were tracking Pakistan’s nukes; public reports often optimistically (probably over-optimistically) claim we could gain control of their program if the government was ever overturned. The Pakistanis had to know we were infiltrating Lashkar-e-Taiba, since that’s what David Headley was supposedly doing when he participated in the Mumbai bombing.

And it certainly seems like Pakistan knew the details and many of the people involved as well.

But this article provides some numbers. It explains that 335 Special Forces, contractors, and CIA officers are now being sent home. Of that, 40 to 80 are members of the Special Forces who exceeded the quota of 120 Special Forces Pakistan allowed us. The remaining 255-315 must be a combination of contractors and CIA officers whose purpose the US has not shared with the Pakistanis. That’s in addition to whatever contractors we withdrew after Davis was captured.

For the moment, it appears this will shut down two parts of the American war in Pakistan. The US threatened to shut down the training program.

The request by General Kayani to cut back the number of Special Operations forces by up to 40 percent would result in the closure of the training program begun last year at Warsak, close to Peshawar, an American official said.

The United States spent $23 million on a building at Warsak, and $30 million on equipment and training there.

Informed by American officials that the Special Operations training would end even with the partial reduction of 40 percent, General Kayani remained unmoved, the American official said.

And the Pakistanis are asking that the drone program be stopped or, at least, curtailed to its original scope.

In addition to reducing American personnel on the ground, General Kayani has also told the Obama administration that its expanded drone campaign had gotten out of control, a Pakistani official said. Given the reluctance or inability of the Pakistani military to root out Qaeda and Taliban militants from the tribal areas, American officials have turned more and more to drone strikes, drastically increasing the number of strikes last year.The drone campaign, which is immensely unpopular among the Pakistani public, had morphed into the sole preserve of the United States, the Pakistani official said, since the Americans were no longer sharing intelligence on how they were choosing their targets. The Americans had also extended the strikes to new parts of the tribal region, like the Khyber area near the city of Peshawar.

“Kayani would like the drones stopped,” said another Pakistani official who met with the military chief recently. “He believes they are used too frequently as a weapon of choice, rather than as a strategic weapon.” Short of that, General Kayani was demanding that the campaign return to its original, more limited scope and remain focused narrowly on North Waziristan, the prime militant stronghold.

Ultimately, it seems like our efforts were getting close to elements in the ISI and Pakistani military who were involved in what we deem militant activity. We were doing so without sharing our intelligence with the Pakistanis (which has often led to militants being tipped off). So now the Pakistanis are demanding we share that information again.

But negotiations don’t appear to be going well. ISI head Lt. General Ahmed Shuja Pasha left early yesterday from meetings with Leon Panetta and Mike Mullen.

Though the spokesman Marie Harf said that the cooperation between the two agencies remained on “solid footing”, the Pakistani general reportedly cut short his visit abruptly to return home.

Both the US and Pakistani officials did not give any reasons for Shuja curtailing his talks here.

There’s one more thing about this story: US reporting on it, at least, seems to pretend that Davis was captured out of chance. The NYT even repeats the implausible “mugging” story. I’d say that’s unlikely.

Ongoing Fallout from Raymond Davis Affairs Reveals Extent of Our Activities in Pakistan | Emptywheel