ISI has taken over GHQ

[fatman17]

dont pick it literary, you know what the problem being discussed is !! job rotation has got nothing to do with the top hierarchy slots.

thats a good one - so next time lets appoint a 2/LT to the post of Corps Commander after he graduates (with a BSc degree) from Kakul.

 

[Solomon2]

Even inside the US, although the Army is subservient to a "civilian authority", the military commanders are not necessarily in line with their approach to the government...So what is happening in Pakistan is not uncommon.

In the U.S. the military and CIA are ultimately accountable to elected government whereas in Pakistan they are not. Power not accountable to democratic oversight is the core of tyranny itself - that is Pakistan's problem. Since the days of the American revolution the legislative power has closely appropriated spending and appointed independent inspector generals accountable directly to it to check the power of military commanders and bureaucracy; in the civil war the supervision was so close it took an act of Congress to permit the Army to buy pepper for its meat! link Perhaps Pakistan doesn't have to go that far, but it would it really do badly by taking many steps in that direction?

 

[F.O.X]

Only Idiots will believe what the Chief Idiot (Najam Sethi ) says , Every one know that guys gets his Salary from USA , but you people just want to blame others instead of doing something themselves .

 

[fatman17]

if the country wants the army and ISI not to cross their mandates and dabble in politics (which i support), then form a civilian spy agency and let the ISI do its original work of military intelligence in peace and war times. the last time such an effort was attempted was the creation of FSF by Mr.Bhutto but very quickly the agency was used to spy on his opponets.

upgrade the IB to the status of a CIA and appoint only civilians to do the work of intelligence gathering. lets see how long this will last.

 

[lem34]

In the U.S. the military and CIA are ultimately accountable to elected government whereas in Pakistan they are not. Power not accountable to democratic oversight is the core of tyranny itself - that is Pakistan's problem. Since the days of the American revolution the legislative power has closely appropriated spending and appointed independent inspector generals accountable directly to it to check the power of military commanders and bureaucracy; in the civil war the supervision was so close it took an act of Congress to permit the Army to buy pepper for its meat! link Perhaps Pakistan doesn't have to go that far, but it would it really do badly by taking many steps in that direction?

Now now this is what I meant a Jew who openly admits he is a Zionist comes on here giving us advise. I must say that is excellent we must immediately do the opposite of what he says because we know that Zionists hate us and Pakistan.

Long live Pakistan its armed forces and ISI

if the country wants the army and ISI not to cross their mandates and dabble in politics (which i support), then form a civilian spy agency and let the ISI do its original work of military intelligence in peace and war times. the last time such an effort was attempted was the creation of FSF by Mr.Bhutto but very quickly the agency was used to spy on his opponets.

upgrade the IB to the status of a CIA and appoint only civilians to do the work of intelligence gathering. lets see how long this will last.

Why should we and I think we are as a country being pressurised by enemy countries to make changes to ISI make those same changes

 

[Leader]

if the country wants the army and ISI not to cross their mandates and dabble in politics (which i support), then form a civilian spy agency and let the ISI do its original work of military intelligence in peace and war times. the last time such an effort was attempted was the creation of FSF by Mr.Bhutto but very quickly the agency was used to spy on his opponets.

upgrade the IB to the status of a CIA and appoint only civilians to do the work of intelligence gathering. lets see how long this will last.

This is not the thread which is about the role of intelligence in politics, its about the new and unconventional development within the system of military pointed out by Najam Sethi...

however, a historic role of ISI's political desk in Politics by Brig (R) A Munir, before 1975 and after 1975.

The political role of the ISI – The Express Tribune


on topic: the convention must be followed, if Kiyani has made exceptions, it should end with him...

 

[53fd]

In the U.S. the military and CIA are ultimately accountable to elected government whereas in Pakistan they are not.

This is false. You need to check out the latest news on the Supreme Court of Pakistan, & the authority they have over everyone in Pakistan. The CIA/US military are not accountable to the judiciary in matters of national security, as they have full impunity to kill American citizens that are a threat to national security, undermining the US constitution.

BBC News - US Attorney General justifies terrorism kill policy

 

[Rafi]

Liberal/Libertarian Pakistani nationalist = off topic that is me, liberal in social matters, fiscal conservative, and hawk on national security. <back on topic>.

 

[lem34]

I think the core issue is addressed very well by Thomas Jefferson who was not only a founding father of America was a US president and the principal author of the United States Declaration of Independence. He wrote to friend,

"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest (emphasis in original). The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country, by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us: thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means. . . "

This sense that secret intelligence activities were governed by a higher law of self-preservation limited Federal judiciary's reluctance to exert limited jurisdiction in such areas.

So come on guys I can understand Indians Americans Zionists and Solo mon asking our beloved ISI to be held to a higher standard than the CIA but why are we even giving this any bandwidth

 

[BATMAN]

This is not the thread which is about the role of intelligence in politics, its about the new and unconventional development within the system of military pointed out by Najam Sethi...

however, a historic role of ISI's political desk in Politics by Brig (R) A Munir, before 1975 and after 1975.

The political role of the ISI &#8211; The Express Tribune


on topic: the convention must be followed, if Kiyani has made exceptions, it should end with him...

Please stop quoting Express news.

 

[pak-marine]

and who is going to discipline these un-educated & currupt politicians. and what if the civilian masters flout the orders of the judiciary, then what???

Time will , since past years they cry , let the people suffer from their mistakes in elections , let them understand they are choosing their fate in elections as benazir said in all her wisdom democracy is the best revenge same will apply on her party. If independent judiciary law enforcement will automatically get better .. there are no quick solutions here , this will improve by time and pakistanis will learn from mistake .. last thing we need is army or isi intervention in political affairs

 

[Solomon2]

You need to check out the latest news on the Supreme Court of Pakistan, & the authority they have over everyone in Pakistan.

I have been and will continue to do so. In my opinion the Army and ISI are indeed holding themselves to some (not full) account to the SC, but I don't see submission to the legislature. That's oligarchic oversight, not democratic, and it's only partial. How many times have the U.S. and India heard the line, especially after 26/11, that proof of Pakistanis committing terrorism or ISI violations of international law must come from foreign sources rather than Pakistan digging it up itself?

The CIA/US military are not accountable to the judiciary in matters of national security, as they have full impunity to kill American citizens that are a threat to national security, undermining the US constitution.

Save in self-defense, such authority comes from the president (an order to assassinate an American has only come once in this presidency that I know of, I wonder if there have been others?) That's a far cry from "full impunity".

The attorney general is the nominated by the president and confirmed by the senate; both president and attorney general are subject to impeachment by Congress for "treason, bribery, and other high crimes and misdemeanors." The checks and balances of democratic oversight are thus met. (Note that I am not a fan of this attorney general and think his impeachment or resignation would not be a bad thing at all.)

(If I'm wrong, Bilal, please provide appropriate links so I can correct my education, thanks.)

 

[regular]

The army was constitutionally mandated to be an arm of the Pakistan state with elected civilians in control of the executive. But it has seized the commanding heights and subordinated the other organs of the state to its own unaccountable purposes.

In recent times, however, something even more sinister has been happening. This is the creeping growth of the ISI from a small arms-length intelligence directorate or department of the military (Inter Services Intelligence Directorate) in the initial decades of independent Pakistan to an omnipotent and invisible "deep state within the state" that now controls both military strategy and civilian policy.

General Pervez Musharraf's unprecedented appointment of General Ashfaq Kayani, a former DG-ISI, as COAS was the first step in this direction. The second was General Kayani's own decision to routinely rotate senior and serving ISI officers to positions of command and control in the army and vice-versa, coupled with his insistence on handpicking the DGISI and extending his service. Together, these decisions reflect a harsh new reality. The ISI has walked into GHQ and seized command and control of the armed forces.

This is a deeply troubling development because it violates the established norm-policy of all militaries in democratic societies - intelligence services must consciously be kept at arms length from GHQ because "field commanders must not get contaminated" or tainted by cloak and dagger operations in grey zones. That is why COAS Gen Zia ul Haq kicked Gen Akhtar Abdul Rehman, DGISI, upstairs to CJOSC rather than give him troops to command. That is why COAS Gen Asif Nawaz sidelined DGISI Gen Asad Durrani as IG Training and Evaluation. That is why COAS Gen Waheed Kakar prematurely retired Gen Durrani from service for playing politics in GHQ and then recommended Gen Jehangir Karamat as his successor rather than his close confidante and former DGISI Gen Javed Ashraf Qazi. Indeed, that is why the CIA, RAW, MI6, KGB, MOSSAD etc remain under full civilian operations and control even though soldiers may be seconded to them or head them occasionally.

The ISI's meteoric rise in the 1980s is well documented. It became the official conduit for tens of billions of dollars of arms and slush funds from the US and Saudi Arabia to the Mujahideen against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Three serving generals of the time were billed as "the richest and most powerful generals in the world" by Time magazine in 1986. Two of them, Gen Akhtar Abdul Rehman and Gen Hameed Gul were in turn DGs-ISI while the third, General Fazle Haq, was the Peshawar gatekeeper to Afghanistan.

Three Prime Ministers have fallen victim to the ISI. PM Junejo ran afoul of DGs ISI Gen Hameed Gul and Gen Akhtar Abdul Rehman over the Ojhri Camp disaster. Benazir Bhutto was undermined by DGs ISI Gen Gul and General Asad Durrani. And Nawaz Sharif by DG ISI Gen Javed Ashraf Qazi and COAS Gen Waheed Kakar. Indeed, Mr Sharif might have survived in 1999 if Gen Musharraf had not earlier cunningly moved Gen Mohammad Aziz from the ISI to GHQ as CGS because it was the latter who nudged Corps Commander Pindi Gen Mahmood Ahmed to execute the coup in the absence of Gen Musharraf.

The ISI's creeping coup - ISI officers returning to command positions in the army - against GHQ is fraught with problems. It has eroded the credibility and capacity of both the current DG ISI and COAS within the military and civil society. The ISI's spectacular failures (BB's assassination, Mumbai, Raymond Davis case, missing persons, Memogate, Mehrangate, Abbotabad, Saleem Shehzad, Get-Zardari, etc) can all be laid at GHQ's door just as the ISI's anti-terrorist policy failures are responsible for the loss of over 3000 soldiers to the Pakistan Taliban and the terrorist attacks on GHQ and Mehran Navy Base. The fact that both the COAS and DG ISI have taken extensions in service has also undermined their credibility far and wide.

This is a critical point in Pakistan's political history. On the one hand, the civilians all agree that the military should be subservient to civilian authority, that the national security state must be replaced by a social welfare state and that peace and trade rather than war and aid paradigms should prevail in security policies without friends or enemies. On the other side, the military high command is more lacking in credibility now than at any time since 1971. Meanwhile, the judiciary and media have broken free from the stranglehold of the civilian executive and military command and want to hold both accountable.

A Truth and Reconciliation Commission is desperately needed as in much of Latin America and Africa to hold errant civilians, soldiers and intelligence operators accountable. The ISI's internal political wing must be abolished and it must be brought under civilian authority. GHQ must follow security policies made on meaningful advice from civilians. And civilians should join hands to fashion a new national welfare state for the people of Pakistan.

by Najam Sethi @thefridaytimes.



Please avoid nonsensical posts about Najam Sethi and other rhetoric....

DO READ THE ARTICLE, it has raised some real issue....and its very dangerous development... the unconventional moves can damage the Institution the most...

ISI(Intelligence wing) should always remain away from GHQ ( Command and Control Operational wing)

I guess ISI is doing excellent job to control both the GHQ and the civilian govt.....

This is false. You need to check out the latest news on the Supreme Court of Pakistan, & the authority they have over everyone in Pakistan. The CIA/US military are not accountable to the judiciary in matters of national security, as they have full impunity to kill American citizens that are a threat to national security, undermining the US constitution.

BBC News - US Attorney General justifies terrorism kill policy

I guess ISI shold have full immunity to kill anybody a threat to our country and humanity........

 

[Tehmasib]

najam (qadianee) kis k kheny par aur kis k lyee lekh raha hy??? ISI AND PAKISTAN ARMY/PAKISTAN ZINDIDABAAD
WE TACKLE THESE TYPES OF MIR SADIQ AND MIR JAFER

 

[Areesh]

What an article by "Mir Chakar". Epic. Where is that facepalm picture. Oh here it is.