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ISI - a big failure?

Ufff.... Itni jalan... ISI is Cheetah ;-)

ISI is a failure that's why alive in Indians mind :p:

Their news channels, movies all are spreading fear of ISI in Indians mind. :p: As Much as you talk about other agencies in front of kids and youth most probably they got scare.
 
"Ufff.... Itni jalan... ISI is Cheetah ;-)"............Yeah! And this Cheetah is running wild all over your country....save yourself :cheesy:
 
Dear Irfan Baloch, sorry I cannot quote your post as I am only 5 post old:).....but agree with your below comment on post no.178. Some hardliners who are failing to understand the future potential danger of such extremism to Pakistan , are the ones sabotaging the ISI! Just a thought...what if these Talibans, after making Afganistan an ideal Islamist country as per their interpretations, turn all their focus & energy to help Pakistan become a similar "ideal Islamist country" as per the Talibani standards??

Irfan Baloch's quote: "remember that security agencies like the law enforcement and the civil services are all infiltrated with active supporters and sympathisers that has made the job of the agencies and forces even more difficult who are genuinely against the cult of Al Qaeda & Taliban and want to undo the poison brought in from Saudi ideology & American funding to fight the Soviets."
 
With all due respect, @Last Hope, isn't it the job of the ISI to also make sure that such an obvious plot as the one you have detailed out in the OP does not succeed? So far, I see the ISI taking no steps to control the flow of disinformation, the media has spiralled completely out of control since this post was written. Other than that, I see the ISI taking no steps to try to bridge the growing trust-deficit between the Army and the people. Such action is also part of their responsibility, the people can not be expected to be wise to the enemy's plans. It is the ISI and the Army who should lead from the front in this regard.

why is this issue not being addressed by i.s.i. ?
 
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Dear Irfan Baloch, sorry I cannot quote your post as I am only 5 post old:).....but agree with your below comment on post no.178. Some hardliners who are failing to understand the future potential danger of such extremism to Pakistan , are the ones sabotaging the ISI! Just a thought...what if these Talibans, after making Afganistan an ideal Islamist country as per their interpretations, turn all their focus & energy to help Pakistan become a similar "ideal Islamist country" as per the Talibani standards??

Irfan Baloch's quote: "remember that security agencies like the law enforcement and the civil services are all infiltrated with active supporters and sympathisers that has made the job of the agencies and forces even more difficult who are genuinely against the cult of Al Qaeda & Taliban and want to undo the poison brought in from Saudi ideology & American funding to fight the Soviets."

it has already happened and happening in India as well my dear
remember the movie "Gulam e Mustafa"? the Muslim global extremism that is normally termed as wahabism is already taking roots in India, although Muslims are in minority but where ever they are, this cult is able to make the lives of ordinary Muslims and non-Muslims a constant pain & misery

now we have a taliban sympathiser party in Power once again which is loved by Saudis & UAE. very critical situation for agencies like ISI
 
"Ufff.... Itni jalan... ISI is Cheetah ;-)"............Yeah! And this Cheetah is running wild all over your country....save yourself :cheesy:

I really do not want to compare. but fact is fact.. Every intel agency do the same kind of work :p:

if you love RAW because they are patriot (As you claim), Raw support every extremism in pakistan, China, Gulf, Lanka etc.

So stop judging :-)

If ISI is not reacting practically as we all expect doesn't mean they failed or down...
 
ISI was a big success prior to 9/11, Afghanistan, Kashmir insurgency, proxy war with India etc but with WOT and US in the picture the all powerful ISI is now losing steam. OBL episode was a serious embarrassment and failure, so has been growth of terrorism in Pakistan
 
Not really...

ISI have done very well until recently when it has failed a bit, but still the best agency in Asia atleast. They're still doing a perfect job by worrying New Delhi so thats good.
 
re CIA you are right

ISI stands for inter services intelligence
by services it means Army air force and Navy

the officers are sourced from all three services and so are the NCOs and then there is a tier of civilians as well in it but essentially ISI is a part of the military and the ISI chief comes under the COAS.
look up its past and present directors to get the idea.

as far as the subject question is concerned, yes ISI shares the burden of failure along with all different military and civilian intelligence and law enforcement agencies/ forces
given the chaos TTP was able create since our joining of WoT.

yes there are odd successes and triumphs but they didnt break the backbone of the terrorists and their handlers

I agree that ISI is a hybrid between a CIAic agency and MI. But what I meant was that since Pakistan has a dedicated MI agency, I think ISI is closer to CIA operationally.
 
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And then they say, ISI,MI and IB don't twist facts in intel reports to suit their agenda
 
Army shouldn't be making policy government should . The Pakistani army is has failed . Americans drone strike our country everyday Taliban bomb us American did a raid in Pakistan and what does the army does "Its Violating our sovereignty " Grow up any army man here a message from me is your Hired guns of US they come and slap you as they wish! You say there is civilian corruption what about army corruption? get a life!
 
Pakistan insecurity & obsession with India has tilted the balance of power from civilian Govt. to military & ISI. ISI is supposed to be a secret service agency...but in Pakistan this secret service agency is probably the most talked about organization. Constant enmity between India & Pakistan is harming both the nations. If you look at Pakistan, before 1965 Pakistan was more prosperous than India and was doing really well, but after 1965 war a severe slowdown hit Pakistan, then there was the sudden need to re-build and upgrade the military with huge spending...everything spoiled the previously good Pakistan economy. After two consecutive wars with India on 1965 & 1971, naturally entire focus of army, ISI, Govt. and use of its resources became India centric, army also took charge of the Govt. several times. And today India has much more economic power than Pakistan....the arms race is still on, but what will happen? It will put pressure on both countries economy, but Pakistan economy being much smaller, this arms race will have more negative impact on its economy, forcing the economy to slip further. Unless Pakistan focuses & improves the economy, the military gap between India & Pakistan will continue to widen. Only a development-minded corruption free strong democratic Govt. can be the savior of Pakistan, not the Army or ISI as some people suggest.
 
The ISI and Terrorism: Behind the Accusations


Authors: Jayshree Bajoria, and Eben Kaplan

Updated: May 4, 2011


Introduction
Pakistan's military intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), has long faced accusations of meddling in the affairs of its neighbors. A range of officials inside and outside Pakistan have stepped up suggestions of links between the ISI and terrorist groups in recent years. In fall 2006, a leaked report by a British Defense Ministry think tank charged, "Indirectly Pakistan (through the ISI) has been supporting terrorism and extremism--whether in London on 7/7 [the July 2005 attacks on London's transit system], or in Afghanistan, or Iraq." In June 2008, Afghan officials accused Pakistan's intelligence service of plotting a failed assassination attempt on President Hamid Karzai; shortly thereafter, they implied the ISI's involvement in a July 2008 attack on the Indian embassy. Indian officials also blamed the ISI for the bombing of the Indian embassy. Pakistani officials have denied such a connection.

Numerous U.S. officials have also accused the ISI of supporting terrorist groups, even as the Pakistani government seeks increased aid from Washington with assurances of fighting militants. In a May 2009 interview with CBS' 60 Minutes, U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said "to a certain extent, they play both sides." Gates and others suggest the ISI maintains links with groups like the Afghan Taliban as a "strategic hedge" to help Islamabad gain influence in Kabul once U.S. troops exit the region.

These allegations surfaced yet again in July 2010 when WikiLeaks.org made public (NYT) a trove of U.S. intelligence records on the war in Afghanistan. The documents described ISI's links to militant groups fighting U.S. and international forces in Afghanistan. In April 2011 during a visit to Pakistan, U.S. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen pointed to ISI's links with one such group, the Haqqani network. The May 1, 2011, killing of America's most wanted terrorist Osama bin Laden in a Pakistani military town not far from Islamabad raised new questions over army and ISI support for the al-Qaeda leader and the legitimacy of their counterterrorism efforts. Pakistan's government has repeatedly denied allegations of supporting terrorism, citing as evidence its cooperation in the U.S.-led battle against extremists in which it has taken significant losses both politically and on the battlefield.

Supporting Terrorism?
"The ISI probably would not define what they've done in the past as 'terrorism,'" says William Milam, former U.S. ambassador to Pakistan. Nevertheless, experts say the ISI has supported a number of militant groups in the disputed Kashmir region between Pakistan and India, some of which are on the U.S. State Department's Foreign Terrorist Organizations list. While Pakistan has a formidable military presence near the Indian border, some experts believe the relationship between the military and some Kashmiri groups has greatly changed with the rise of militancy within Pakistan. Shuja Nawaz, author of Crossed Swords: Pakistan, its Army, and the Wars Within, says the ISI "has certainly lost control" of Kashmiri militant groups. According to Nawaz, some of the groups trained by the ISI to fuel insurgency in Kashmir have been implicated in bombings and attacks within Pakistan, therefore making them army targets.


"I do not accept the thesis that the ISI is a rogue organization." --William Milam, former U.S. ambassador to Pakistan.

On Pakistan's western border with Afghanistan, the ISI supported the Taliban up to September 11, 2001, though Pakistani officials deny any current support for the group. Pakistan's government was also one of three countries, along with the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, that recognized the Taliban government in Afghanistan. The ISI's first major involvement in Afghanistan came after the Soviet invasion in 1979, when it partnered with the CIA to provide weapons, money, intelligence, and training to the mujahadeen fighting the Red Army. At the time, some voices within the United States questioned the degree to which Pakistani intelligence favored extremist and anti-American fighters. Following the Soviet withdrawal, the ISI continued its involvement in Afghanistan, first supporting resistance fighters opposed to Moscow's puppet government, and later the Taliban.

Pakistan stands accused of allowing that support to continue. Afghan President Hamid Karzai has repeatedly said Pakistan trains militants and sends them across the border. In May 2006, the British chief of staff for southern Afghanistan told the Guardian, "The thinking piece of the Taliban is out of Quetta in Pakistan. It's the major headquarters." Speaking at the Council on Foreign Relations in September 2006, then-president Pervez Musharraf responded to such accusations, saying, "It is the most ridiculous thought that the Taliban headquarters can be in Quetta." Nevertheless, experts generally suspect Pakistan still provides some support to the Taliban, though probably not to the extent it did in the past. "If they're giving them support, it's access back and forth [to Afghanistan] and the ability to find safe haven," says Kathy Gannon, who covered the region for decades for the Associated Press. Gannon adds that the Afghan Taliban needs Pakistan even less as a safe haven now "because [it has] gained control of more territory inside Afghanistan."

Many in the Pakistani government, including slain former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, have called the intelligence agency "a state within a state," working beyond the government's control and pursuing its own foreign policy. But Nawaz says the intelligence agency does not function independently. "It aligns itself to the power center," and does what the government or the army asks it to do, says Nawaz.

Control over the ISI
Constitutionally, the agency is accountable to the prime minister, says Hassan Abbas, research fellow at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. But most officers in the ISI are from the army, so that is where their loyalties and interests lie, he says. Experts say until the end of 2007, as army chief and president, Musharraf exercised firm control over the intelligence agency.

But experts say it is not clear how much control Pakistan's civilian government--led by Bhutto's widower, President Asif Ali Zardari--has over the agency. In July 2008, the Pakistani government announced the ISI will be brought under the control of the interior ministry, but revoked its decision (BBC) within hours. Bruce Riedel, an expert on South Asia at the Brookings Institution, says the civilian leadership has "virtually no control" (PDF) over the army and the ISI. In September 2008, army chief Ashfaq Parvez Kiyani replaced the ISI chief picked by former president Musharraf with Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha. Until then, Pasha headed military operations against militants in the tribal areas. Some experts said the move signaled that Kiyani was consolidating his control over the intelligence agency by appointing his man at the top. In November 2008, the government disbanded ISI's political wing, which politicians say was responsible for interfering in domestic politics. Some experts saw it as a move by the army, which faced much criticism when Musharraf was at the helm, to distance itself from politics.

"I do not accept the thesis that the ISI is a rogue organization," Milam says. "It's a disciplined army unit that does what it's told, though it may push the envelope sometimes." With a reported staff of ten thousand, ISI is hardly monolithic: "Like in any secret service, there are rogue elements," says Frederic Grare, a South Asia expert and visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He points out that many of the ISI's agents have ethnic and cultural ties to Afghan insurgents, and naturally sympathize with them. Marvin G. Weinbaum, an expert on Afghanistan and Pakistan at the Middle East Institute, says Pakistan has sent "retired" ISI agents on missions the government could not officially endorse

Resistance in FATA
Pakistan's tribal areas along the Afghan border have emerged as safe havens for terrorists. Experts say because of their links to the Taliban and other militant groups, the ISI has some influence in the region. But with the mushrooming of armed groups in the tribal agencies, it is hard to say which ones the agency controls. Also, there appears to be divisions within the ISI. While some within the intelligence agency continue to sympathize with the militant groups, Harvard's Abbas says others realize they cannot follow a policy contradictory to that of the army, which is directly involved in counterterrorism operations in the area.

Bruce Riedel, an expert on South Asia at the Brookings Institution, says the civilian leadership has "virtually no control" over the army and the ISI.


Mixed Record on Counterterrorism
Pakistan has arrested scores of al-Qaeda affiliates, including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. The ISI and the Pakistani military have worked effectively with the United States to pursue the remnants of al-Qaeda.

Following 9/11, Pakistan also stationed eighty thousand troops in the troubled province of Waziristan near the Afghan border. Hundreds of Pakistani soldiers died there in resulting clashes with militants, which, as Musharraf told a CFR meeting in September 2006, "broke the al-Qaeda network's back in Pakistan."

But Musharraf did crack down on terrorist groups selectively, as this Backgrounder points out. Weinbaum in 2006 said the Pakistani military has largely ignored Taliban fighters on its soil. "There are extremist groups that are beyond the pale with which the ISI has no influence at all," he says. "Those are the ones they go after." In 2008, Ashley J. Tellis, senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, wrote (PDF) in The Washington Quarterly that Musharraf tightened pressure on groups whose objectives were out of sync with the military's perception of Pakistan's national interest.

The Taliban as a Strategic Asset
Pakistan does not enjoy good relations with the current leadership of Afghanistan, partly because of rhetorical clashes with Afghan President Hamid Karzai, and partly because Karzai has forged strong ties with India. But there have been increased efforts by the United States to close this gap. The Obama administration's regional strategy unveiled in March 2009 focused on creating new diplomatic mechanisms; a trilateral summit of the leaders of the United States, Pakistan, and Afghanistan has been one such step toward helping reduce the level of distrust that runs among all three countries. But lingering suspicions about ISI's support for the Taliban continue to pose problems. In an October 2006 interview, Musharraf said some retired ISI operatives could be abetting the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan, but he denied any active links. Zardari, too, denies any ISI links with the Taliban or al-Qaeda. In a May 2009 interview with CNN, he remarked all intelligence agencies have their sources in militant organizations but that does not translate to support. "Does that mean CIA has direct links with al-Qaeda? No, they have their sources. We have our sources. Everybody has sources."

Some experts say Pakistan wants to see a stable, friendlier government emerge in Afghanistan. Though the insurgency certainly doesn't serve this goal, increased Taliban influence, especially in the government, might. Supporting the Taliban also allows Pakistan to hedge its bets should the NATO coalition pull out of Afghanistan. In a February 2008 interview with CFR.org, Tellis said the Pakistani intelligence services continue to support the Taliban because they see the Taliban leadership "as a strategic asset," a reliable back-up force in case things go sour in Afghanistan.

Not everyone agrees with this analysis. According to Weinbaum, Pakistan has two policies. One is an official policy of promoting stability in Afghanistan; the other is an unofficial policy of supporting jihadis in order to appease political forces within Pakistan. "The second [policy] undermines the first one," he says. Nawaz says there is ambivalence within the army regarding support for the Taliban. "They'd rather not deal with the Afghan Taliban as an adversary," he says.

Allegations of Terrorist Attacks
Indian officials implicated the ISI for the November 2008 terrorist attacks in Mumbai that killed nearly two hundred people.

India's foreign ministry said the ISI had links (Reuters) to the planners of the attacks, the banned militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba, which New Delhi blames for the assault. Islamabad denies allegations of any official involvement, but acknowledged in February 2009 that the attack was launched and partly planned (AP) from Pakistan
.

The Pakistani government has also detained several Islamist leaders, some of them named by India as planners of the Mumbai assault. Gannon says this is an unusual step by Pakistan, which never got enough credit in India because the country was in the middle of a national election. "I don't see any evidence" to believe that the ISI was behind the Mumbai attack, she says.

However, she doubts the agency has severed all its ties with groups like Lashkar-e-Taiba which it supported to fight in Indian-administered Kashmir. Indian officials also claim to have evidence that the ISI planned the July 2006 bombing of the Mumbai commuter trains, but these charges seem unlikely to some observers of the long, difficult India-Pakistan relationship. The two nations have a history of finger-pointing, and while some of the allegations hold water, there is a tendency to exaggerate.

Following the release of the British report regarding its July 7, 2005, bombings of London's mass transit system--which London insists is not a statement of policy--Weinbaum said it makes "too broad a statement." Though Pakistan does offer safe haven to Kashmiri groups, and perhaps some Taliban fighters, the suggestion that the ISI is responsible for the 7/7 bombings is "a real stretch," Gannon says.
 
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