Is the Su-30MKI Superior to the Eurofighter And Rafale?

[randomradio]

Vishnu Som of NDTV is an A hole ! believe his propaganda at your own peril.

He is a media spin doctor in politics. But he has been very reliable in defence matters. A lot of the stuff he said checks out.

Yet, that could have been done by a Su-35 derivative as well instead of forcing the IAF to search for twice as many pilots and associated training.

Then we will have to pay the Russians twice for the same tech.

If size and two heads along with an overhyped thrust vectoring capaicty were the only thing pertinent in air combat; you would think every graduate from Nellis and even the Israeli Skewer leadership grads would be talking about it.

Instead, these air forces who represent the pinnacle of air combat doctrine are now focused on LO survivability, Net centric warfare , BVR engagements along with high off boresight slash and dash attacks.

The Israelis want two seat heavies.
Israel Prefers F-15 ‘Silent Eagles’ to More F-35s | War Is Boring

Israel Reconsidering 2008 Purchase of U.S. Jets; Cabinet Mulls Cancelling Acquisition of Flawed Fighter-Jet Rejected By Most NATO Air Forces

The Saudis want two seat heavies.
Boeing unveils Royal Saudi Air Force's first F-15SA aircraft - Airforce Technology

Qatar wants two seat heavies.
Will The White House Finally Clear Qatar To Purchase 72 F-15 Strike Eagles?

There was no need for a two seat aircraft in such numbers beyond a dedicated section of strike aircraft.

Something we agree on.

The rafale is an overall superior aircraft.. but the EF is more suited to both BVR and close in fights.

The EF failed on both counts against Rafale.

 

[Jamwal's]

The source site is no longer available. However, your compatriot's words might help you come to terms.

PAF kills versis IAF kills



Werrell, Kenneth P. Sabres over MiG Alley. Naval Institute Press, 2005.

Battle for Pakistan by John Fricker, Ian Allan Ltd, London 1978.

Polman, Norman and Dana Bell. One Hundred Years of World Military Aircraft. Naval Institute Press, 2004.

Pakistan Air Force Combat Experience

Fighter Pilot Aces List from Fighter Pilot Aces List

Good, but none of it mentioned the Pilot names and Aircraft Types shot down by MM Alam,except for one

link Air Aces Homepage which says that MM Alam Shot down 5 Hunters on 7th sep.

One of his Aerial victory was claimed to be Squadron Leader Devayya who flew in a Mystere Aircraft not Hunter and shot down by Flt Lt. Amjad Hussain not M M Alam.

official IAF Page.


SQUADRON LEADER AJJAMADA BOPAYYA DEVAYYA (4810) : MAHA VIR CHAKRA

Squadron Leader Ajjimada Bopayya Devayya flew in a Mystere Aircraft as a member of a strike formation that was assigned the task of attacking the heavily defended Sargodha airfield in Pakistan at 0555 hours on 7th September, 1965. All members of the mission except Squadron Leader Devayya returned safely to base. As no other details were available at that time, Squadron Leader Devayya was listed as 'Mission in Action'.

Careful research and innumerable interviews with pilots, who flew on that day, have conclusively proved that Squadron Leader Devayya had performed a pre-eminently daring act. Having accomplished a successful raid over Sargodah airfield at the appointed time, the Mystere aircraft piloted by Squadron Leader Devayya was intercepted by a Pakistani supersonic F-104 Star-Fighter. The pilot of F-104 first fired an air-to-air Sidewinder missile, which Squadron Leader Devayya successfully evaded and the missile hit the ground. However, by virtue of its faster acceleration, the F-104 rapidly closed in on the Mystere and fired a burst of its 20 mm multibarrel cannon and succedded in damaging Squadron Leader Devayya's Mystere. The F-104 went ahead of the Mystere due to its higer speed. Undaunted and with utter disregard for his personal safety, Squadron Leadder Devayya flew his damaged Mystere in pursuit after the F-104. His decision was critical because the Mystere were operating at the extremity of their range and combat with an F-104 meant significantly lowering his chances of return to base. Neither the Pakistani pilots flying skill nor the F-104 superior performance were apparently a match for Squadron Leader Devayya's determination and single-minded purpose. Maneuvering a damaged aircraft, he finally shot down the F-104. Thereafter, it is conjectured that Squadron Leader Devayya was unable to maintain control of his aircraft and was either killed in an unsuccessful low-level ejection or in a crash because of the damage that his aircraft had sustained.

Squadron Leader Ajjamada Bopayya Devayya thus performed an act of conspicuous gallantry in the face of the enemy.

 

[Brahmaputra Mail]

Offtopic:

Two men, A and B, stood against each other in a firing range, fighting for the coveted medal. B is more experienced than A. B has mastered shooting at the target located at 150 metres using the iron sights alone. Counting on his experience he chose to compete A without the use of optical sight. Meanwhile A chose to use the best optical sight, since the competition rules stated that there was no restriction. After a while A wins the match against B. B says this is cheating, the judge replied, "You came unprepared".

Moral of the story: When it's a competition always come prepared and never underestimate your opponent.

Ontopic:

Whatever happened to man behind the machines ? Is it that RAF is more dependent on technology ? What happens during combat if those technology doesn't work as it was supposed to be ?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Man I heard 2 months 3 months ago. Ill believe it when I see it.

3 months ago the Heads of government of India and France hadn't signed an Inter Government Agreement (IGA) on the sale of these Rafales to India. This was only done on 25th January 2016.

This idiocy is even more relevant in the procurement side of the IAF. Granted the IAF could do so with the sudden upsurge in funds available with the rise of India's economy, but the mixture of its own euphoria at its expanding pockets along with a flawed government policy of trying to make "Make in India" projects work without really letting all of India participate in them let the IAF(those looking at aircraft procurement) to act less like a smart spending air force and more like a rich kid a toy store not knowing what to buy.

You're confusing aspects here sir. "Make in India" as stated was only a polciy objective in the current GoI's term

Whether it is the basic training aspect, AJT, or fighter mix. the IAF has bungled up in successive demonstrations of an immature and indecisive buyer who is unsure what they really want for themselves. Granted, every airforce changes its requirements based on what the conditions of its coffers is.. but they dont change it ONLY on that factor.
The IAF on the other hand has been carrying out purchases based solely on that aspect seemingly without any consideration for basic human resource factors such as the recruitment pool and their training; leave alone the impact of having multiple types, their associated supply lines and the rest of the "small print" that goes into a force purchase.

Again, you are confusing different elements here. The IAF wasn't responsible for the goof ups in procurement when it came to the AJT or MMRCA, that was 100% the decsion makers in the MoD and GoI. When it came to the MMRCA, all bidders commended the IAF's fully professional and transparent selection process that was carried out efficently and with little fuss, they had come to a decsion after coducting technical analysis and tests flights of all 6 platforms within 2 years and made their reccomendations to the MoD. It was from here that the process fell apart under the previous defence minister and why it has to be re-branded by this current government. The contract had got itself in such a mess that it required termination and a reset, the process in its current form is less than a year old and not many nations would have been able tp process such a complex deal within this span of time.

The MKI is not a dud.. but it is a product of a flawed air staff policy that is unravelling even now. There was no need for a two seat aircraft in such numbers beyond a dedicated section of strike aircraft. The IAF had every reason both financially and logistically to go for a mix of two seat and single seat flanker variants. There could have been a mix of single seat Su-35's and MKI's which would have greatly alleviated the current pilot shortage. Yet, thanks to a mix of Russian buttering and Vodka..they bought into the idea of the Su-27PU concept even though IAF's ASR requires a different force mix and projections when dealing with India's influence in the region.

At what point has the IAF or anyone else criticsed the concept of the MKI being a two seater? This suits the MKI very well given its powerful onboard sensors and extreme endurance, many other nations are boosting their fleets of twin seat fighters also and in fact on the back of their succesful expereince with the MKI the IAF had increased the mix of twin seat fighters in the Rafales it will be getting.

@PARIKRAMA

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

MKI can be flown just like a single engine by a single pilot if needed, although not done very often. Su35 gave very little advantage compared to MKI for the price, Whatever goes into India, will most likely Come out of Irkut and not Knaapo, why do you think there are so many disgruntled voices for the t50

I see no requirement of MKI in IAF at all- India should've gone with 300 Mig29(250 single +50 double pilots) customized accordingly- and 50 Tu23M1 for long range operations may be even a dedicated bomber fleet of Tu95 If Tu23 was unavailable- And bought the Ramjet engine blue prints back in 90s when It was offered- lack of long term strategic vision clearly lacks when I see MKI accusation drama- And I see the repeat of the same mistake with Rafale- I don't know what are their plans with 200 IAF Rafale in Tibet- Unless and until they have the capability to hit China where It hurts the most- It would be like fighting a loosing war or China's war in Tibet-

 

[randomradio]

At what point has the IAF or anyone else criticsed the concept of the MKI being a two seater? This suits the MKI very well given its powerful onboard sensors and extreme endurance, many other nations are boosting their fleets of twin seat fighters also and in fact on the back of their succesful expereince with the MKI the IAF had increased the mix of twin seat fighters in the Rafales it will be getting.

Bro, he's just plain wrong about his views. All he is right about is we have more MKIs than necessary, which is true because we have more air superiority aircraft than even the USAF does with their F-15Cs.

Russia never forced IAF to go for twin seat aircraft. IAF opted for it. In fact, Knaapo presented a single and twin seat Su-35, the first Su-35 model, for the MKI program and IAF did not go for it.

Even during FGFA negotiations, IAF started off with a full twin seat fleet, but it was the Russians who said it will become too expensive and will compromise stealth by 15%. Even after all the Russian tantrums, IAF is still going ahead with plans for twin seats for a part of the fleet.

The Rafale fleet will also have a huge number of twin seats. Even ADLA's single/twin seat ratio is 50:50.

 

[Donald Trump]

As rightly pointed out by Brits, nothing like that ever happened and IAF had to come up with an apology statement afterwards.

Oh really? Apology statement? Is that a figment of your imagination or something plucked out of an ISPR handout?

If not, provide a link. If you can't, you need to to turn off the gas you're spewing.

 

[MilSpec]

I see no requirement of MKI in IAF at all- India should've gone with 300 Mig29(250 single +50 double pilots) customized accordingly- and 50 Tu23M1 for long range operations may be even a dedicated bomber fleet of Tu95 If Tu23 was unavailable- And bought the Ramjet engine blue prints back in 90s when It was offered- lack of long term strategic vision clearly lacks when I see MKI accusation drama- And I see the repeat of the same mistake with Rafale- I don't know what are their plans with 200 IAF Rafale in Tibet- Unless and until they have the capability to hit China where It hurts the most- It would be like fighting a loosing war or China's war in Tibet-

I respectfully disagree.

 

[Windjammer]

Oh really? Apology statement? Is that a figment of your imagination or something plucked out of an ISPR handout?

If not, provide a link. If you can't, you need to to turn off the gas you're spewing.

If you are being an air head, you have succeeded without effort,
Now let me ask you, what does an exercise between RAF and IAF has to do with the ISPR.
Now activate your brain cells and find out how the IAF had to retract it's tall claims statement and stand down.

 

[randomradio]

Now activate your brain cells and find out how the IAF had to retract it's tall claims statement and stand down.

Source?

 

[ravi gupta]

I respectfully disagree.

Oh really? Apology statement? Is that a figment of your imagination or something plucked out of an ISPR handout?

If not, provide a link. If you can't, you need to to turn off the gas you're spewing.

Source?

He will not give,becoz he dont have one.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

I see no requirement of MKI in IAF at all- India should've gone with 300 Mig29(250 single +50 double pilots) customized accordingly- and 50 Tu23M1 for long range operations may be even a dedicated bomber fleet of Tu95 If Tu23 was unavailable- And bought the Ramjet engine blue prints back in 90s when It was offered- lack of long term strategic vision clearly lacks when I see MKI accusation drama- And I see the repeat of the same mistake with Rafale- I don't know what are their plans with 200 IAF Rafale in Tibet- Unless and until they have the capability to hit China where It hurts the most- It would be like fighting a loosing war or China's war in Tibet-

You have got the STOCKHOLM syndrome

Stockholm syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JohnyD]

anyway...both are friendly nations with close to zero chance of getting into armed conflicts....Its just a game and in case of WVR pilot's skills makes big difference..

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Bro, he's just plain wrong about his views. All he is right about is we have more MKIs than necessary, which is true because we have more air superiority aircraft than even the USAF does with their F-15Cs.

USAF has a wide variety of other aircraft ; for every purpose and role they have dedicated aircrafts

For us SU 30 is all in one

That is why even our AWACS programme is going slow ; as SU 30 is a Mini Awacs

For a TWO front threat we need A very LARGE SU 30 MKI fleet

IAF has done the Right thing by going in for a Large SU 30 Fleet

And if Rafale does not happen ; we will get even more

IAF is still going ahead with plans for twin seats for a part of the fleet.

FGFA will most like be a Single seater so as to preserve the stealthiness
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The Rafale fleet will also have a huge number of twin seats.

At what point has the IAF or anyone else criticsed the concept of the MKI being a two seater? This suits the MKI very well given its powerful onboard sensors and extreme endurance, many other nations are boosting their fleets of twin seat fighters also and in fact on the back of their succesful expereince with the MKI the IAF had increased the mix of twin seat fighters in the Rafales it will be getting.

Twin seaters are necessary to maintain the efficiency of pilots

Other wise Pilots will simply fall prey to fatigue during a war

The recent experiment of drugs given to pilots in an IAF exercise has shown
How much work load a pilot has to take in a real war like situation

A Su 30 is supposed to fly for MANY hours

What will happen to the pilots if the work load is doubled

IAF pilots pop pills to get fighting edge - Times of India

 

[phantomrush]

FGFA will most like be a Single seater so as to preserve the stealthiness

I do not know where you've decided that FGFA be single, but the T-50 will be two and one pilot. What India wants, and then they put. For Russia, there is no difference, let IAF though without a single engine fly The main thing after money.
Why is India so wants Rafale? It needed bombers? None F-16 \ Rafal \ F-15 \ Su-30 can not be a real bomber?