Is the Su-30MKI Superior to the Eurofighter And Rafale?

[dray]

Why did India claim that the Indian Air Force beat the RAF 12-0 in a training exercise?


That's because in india one thing you will find abundant: Propaganda and self praise. This has gone to such extremes that indian media is writing and making up stories even before an event has occurred sometimes. Many times.

It is no surprise that indian air force claimed some whitewash victory over British air force, although such exercises are not a battlezone but the news coming out of India picture it as such. The purpose of such exercises is to create mock up scenarios and try to learn about pilot tactics of other nations and learn from mutual experience. The aim definitely is NOT to brag and drag your feet over it. You would NEVER ever find any other nation bragging any victory over any other country in such exercise. Last time indians were invited to Red flag in US and the outcome was same, although american pilots were found ridiculing indian pilots. Every day there are world's best forces from Russia, China, US, Israel, France, Japan, Pakistan and many other countries are joining these exercises and what comes out of these is so less that people do not even hear about them - but of course how would that be a curry if its not spicy in india and for that matter indians like spice and masala coated fiction. Things like India is the best air force in the world. Yeah right, you are flying russian jets in a british exercise and you are the best. You go to Russia and US to get your pilots trained and you are best. Everything in india for some reason is just the best. Taj mahal is the best piece of architecture even though its designed and built by muslims. India army is the best, although it is protected by laws like AFSPA and has highest suicide rates in the world. Indian Tejas is the best although it is unable to make it to flyers league.

The answer to this question is that it was done for same reason of propaganda as it is done in other situations - except that this time British caught Indians off guard to expose them. That only brought shame to IAF when it had to back track on its ambitious score.

And the false information was provided to media by also IAF itself. It was not indian media who made it up only. British were quick to deny it rightly because first off the exercise did not employ all tactics and this so called 12-0 victory was in WVR combat. That is a combat that will rarely happen in modern era. Most of the theatre is in BVR now. And If any indian is trying to tell you that sukhoi 30 has a better radar than eurofighter, he is simply making it up. Eurofighter has without doubt better avionics, EW, radar, weapons, flight performance, and overall package. If SU-30 is such a better machine then IAF would never have needed to replace its migs with rafale or eurofighter.

As rightly pointed out by Brits, nothing like that ever happened and IAF had to come up with an apology statement afterwards.

If you want to take a fair judgement, eurofighter will at any time of decade, outclass a SU-30 MKI. You have a flying truck in su-30 in air. The moment it goes up in air, it is picked up by radars and fighters with small radars.

Don't believe everything (for that matter anything) coming out of indian media. They are known to make up things and provide fancy fictitious data for public consumption. That's all it is.

Easy mate easy, you will get a heart attack!

Btw, neither IAF gave any statement on the results of the exercise, nor it offered any apology for anything.

 

[SQ8]

LOL.... from Tejeas you have now jumped to "brahmins"

Now its just pathetic.

Let me guess, the next post is going to be about "rape", "toilet" or "caste" ?

Should be.. but at this point you havent proven jack about how the MKI is superior to either of those two fighters. Suggest you avoid needless parroting and especially smileys because that will lead to you thrown out of this thread without any due process by me.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Su-30mki beats Typhoon in Indradhanush combat exercises with 12-0 scoreline
- A +
In the recently concluded international air combat exercises featuring the Indian Air Force’ (IAF) Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters and British Royal Air Force Typhoon jets, the Su-30MKI outsmarted the Eurofighter Typhoon 12-0 in the Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

If the Su-30MKI has a tactical advantage over the Typhoon, the same advantage should extend over the Rafale as well, both of which are more expensive than the Russian origin aircraft.

Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale can be closely compared. Both the fighters have nearly identical size, power and performance. Both are twin-engined Eurocanards. Both aircraft are capable of carrying advanced Electronic warfare suites equipped with jammers and decoys. Both can deliver ALCMs like storm shadow, AASM or Taurus KEPD 350. Both have roughly the same IR and radar signature. Both are equipped with AESA radars and IRSTs. Both have roughly the same speed and are capable of mounting ramjet powered MBDA Meteor.

The Sukhoi-30 MKI mounts a Vympel R-77M BVR AAM missile and aNIIP NO11M Bars (Panther) integrated radar sighting system. The Russian origin plane is capable of performing all tactical tasks of the Su-24 Fencer deep interdiction tactical bomber and the Su-27 Flanker A/B/C air superiority fighter while having around twice the combat range and atleast 2.5 times the combat effectiveness.

The Su-30MKI is powered by the Al-31FP (P for povorotnoye meaning "movable") engine. The Su-30MKI has a large range of 3,000 km without refueling which allows for autonomous operations that require high endurance.

It has an inbuilt In-Flight Refueling (IFR) probe that is retracted beside the cockpit during normal operation. The aircraft can carry air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles, guided bombs, unguided projectiles, APK datalink pods, ELTA RF jammers etc.

“In all dog fighting exercises, IAF Sukhois were able to turn sharply into the extremely agile Typhoons using their thrust-vectored engines to keep the RAF jets locked in their sights. The Su-30's advanced Infrared Search and Track System (IRST), a passive sensor, which cannot be tracked, proved to be a distinct advantage for the IAF's pilots in close-combat maneuvering,” NDTV quoted Group Captain Ashu Srivastav, the Contingent Commander in the exercises as saying.

“Both the IAF and RAF used the full capabilities of their onboard radars in training mode, which meant that actual radar frequencies used in combat conditions were never exposed for confidentiality reasons. However, the detection ranges of the radars of both aircraft were not curtailed per se. This was air combat as close to the real thing as possible,” he said.

So does it mean that the Su-30MKI is superior to the two leading European fighters? Experts are divided on this as the Russian aircraft won in a dogfight, a type of aerial warfare which went out of practice in the 80s with network-centric warfare now in vogue.

Both Eurofighter and Dassault were contenders for the Indian Air Force MMRCA program. Dassault Rafale won the contract but later with technology transfer and cost escalation issues, India chose to reduce the number of aircraft from 126 to 36 this April.

The MMRCA deal was scrapped only this month. The new deal to buy 36 Rafales is still to materialize.

Is the Su-30MKI Superior to the Eurofighter And Rafale?

In some ways the MKI is superior, in other ways the Rafale/EFT are superior.

The MKI-Rafale combo though

Get used to this sight fellas

@PARIKRAMA @Stephen Cohen @Taygibay

 

[SQ8]

Ironically, such exaggerated stories are ultimately, damaging to India. I'm sure there were Indian Su-30 pilots who participated in the UK exercise who have read these stories and winced.

Actually, the issue has to do with one odd overzealous fellow who wants to thump his chest. At the end of the day, the MKI is NOT a superior aircraft to any of those since when it comes down to operational performance and reliablity; the IAF's own are not too fond of their new jet's penchant for not doing "what it says on the tin" even 60% of the time.

It is a fine aircraft which is a deadly adversary when met in Air to Air combat...but it is not invincible and certainly not against the EF or Rafale. If size and two heads along with an overhyped thrust vectoring capaicty were the only thing pertinent in air combat; you would think every graduate from Nellis and even the Israeli Skewer leadership grads would be talking about it.


Instead, these air forces who represent the pinnacle of air combat doctrine are now focused on LO survivability, Net centric warfare , BVR engagements along with high off boresight slash and dash attacks.

Ironically, so is the Indian Air Force and their leadership because they are still a VERY good airforce; but please dont tell their fanboys here whose only knowledge of air combat operations is a mixture of copy pasting what they find at their own defence forums and wikipedia.

The future purchases of the IAF tell the exact tale of what they feel about their MKI, its capabilities and what they consider the future of air warfare.

Get used to this sight fellas

@PARIKRAMA

With the pace the negotiations are going, I only get to see this sight in my custom simulator.

 

[Abingdonboy]

With the pace the negotiations are going, I only get to see this sight in my custom simulator.

Deal for 36 off the shelf will be tied up within 2 months, the deal for 90 follow-on made in India will be finalised within 11 months. Orders beyond that will depend on other variables.

+ The IN will seperately order the Rafale-M within the next 4 years.

The future purchases of the IAF tell the exact tale of what they feel about their MKI, its capabilities and what they consider the future of air warfare.

Hmmm, yes and no. I think it's unfair to say that because the IAF is looking to diversify their air force and develop other areas (strike capability- Rafale and UCAV- and LO) that this indicates their despondency for the MKI. Let's remember that the orginal MKI deal was for <100 jets and all told the eventual MKI fleet will be >300% of this. So clearly they don't consider it a dud, but it is in their back pocket now and they are chaning their focus to other assets.

+ @Oscar
India, Russia to sign pact on spares for Su 30 fleet, availability could go up to 75%


India, Russia to sign pact on spares for Su 30 fleet, availability could go up to 75% - The Economic Times

 

[SQ8]

Deal for 36 off the shelf will be tied up within 2 months, the deal for 90 follow-on made in India will be finalised within 11 months. Orders beyond that will depend on other variables.

+ The IN will seperately order the Rafale-M within the next 4 years.


Hmmm, yes and no. I think it's unfair to say that because the IAF is looking to diversify their air force and develop other areas (strike capability- Rafale and UCAV- and LO) that this indicates their despondency for the MKI. Let's remember that the orginal MKI deal was for <100 jets and all told the eventual MKI fleet will be >300% of this. So clearly they don't consider it a dud, but it is in their back pocket now and they are chaning their focus to other assets.

+ @Oscar
India, Russia to sign pact on spares for Su 30 fleet, availability could go up to 75%


India, Russia to sign pact on spares for Su 30 fleet, availability could go up to 75% - The Economic Times

Man I heard 2 months 3 months ago. Ill believe it when I see it.

The MKI is not a dud.. but it is a product of a flawed air staff policy that is unravelling even now. There was no need for a two seat aircraft in such numbers beyond a dedicated section of strike aircraft. The IAF had every reason both financially and logistically to go for a mix of two seat and single seat flanker variants. There could have been a mix of single seat Su-35's and MKI's which would have greatly alleviated the current pilot shortage. Yet, thanks to a mix of Russian buttering and Vodka..they bought into the idea of the Su-27PU concept even though IAF's ASR requires a different force mix and projections when dealing with India's influence in the region.

They then continued their idiotic( I have no more polite word for it) insistence that mostly state owned firms will focus on electronic integration and sub systems even though the ground was ripe with the "IT Spring" in India. Every IT and electronics start-up in India was raring to contribute but in its sense of insecurity the existing state owned or affiliated defence firms deliberately blocked that from happening. That left HAL with a limited resource (and standards) pool by which it could ensure that its QA would ensure that IAF pilots did not end up with all software and electronic failures consistently until recently while operating the type.

This idiocy is even more relevant in the procurement side of the IAF. Granted the IAF could do so with the sudden upsurge in funds available with the rise of India's economy, but the mixture of its own euphoria at its expanding pockets along with a flawed government policy of trying to make "Make in India" projects work without really letting all of India participate in them let the IAF(those looking at aircraft procurement) to act less like a smart spending air force and more like a rich kid a toy store not knowing what to buy.

Whether it is the basic training aspect, AJT, or fighter mix. the IAF has bungled up in successive demonstrations of an immature and indecisive buyer who is unsure what they really want for themselves. Granted, every airforce changes its requirements based on what the conditions of its coffers is.. but they dont change it ONLY on that factor.
The IAF on the other hand has been carrying out purchases based solely on that aspect seemingly without any consideration for basic human resource factors such as the recruitment pool and their training; leave alone the impact of having multiple types, their associated supply lines and the rest of the "small print" that goes into a force purchase.

And the sad factor is that this is being done by what are seemingly seasoned commanders who have made some well thought out programs such as the upgrade of IAF's ADGE and C4ISR which has followed such a sensible path that it almost fails to look like the same people making these decisions( Leaving aside the integration of unmanned platforms which has been similarly confused in what they really want).

On the other side, the IN has ironically done very well in terms of what it wants out of its Air Arm and where it is going with it. Perhaps they should be given control of the IAF.

So , yes.. the MKI is a fine fighter but not in the numbers and in the configuration the IAF bought it in. By contrast, both the Rafale and the EF are products of multiple air forces thinking in concepts in the 2040s and focusing on those ideals.

 

[cloud_digger]

Ironically, such exaggerated stories are ultimately, damaging to India. I'm sure there were Indian Su-30 pilots who participated in the UK exercise who have read these stories and winced.

Forget a professional pilot, even i winced at the chest thumping in some of those articles coming out at that time.
However, i have to say, the sheer hippocracy in this and other MKI vs xyz threads is mind numbing at times. And before anyone jumps in, let me say there is hippocracy from both sides.

I cannot understand how the MKI is superior to the Rafale or Typhoon and in similar vein how can anyone claim the MKI was allowed to win and thus we can infer that it is inferior or that it is a russian aircraft so it has to be inferior?
Do we know that the MKI was flown without any constraints while the EF was flying with one hand tied behind its back? All we know is the RAF claiming the latter half of the statement while no such statement was given out by the IAF. Not knowing the complete picture, how can one claim which is better? It is not like we are comparing a 4th gen aircraft to a 2nd gen. They are all highly capable 4+ gen aircrafts. They are all being constantly upgraded. And none of them are likely to face each other in a full on combat in the near future.

It is best we stop arguing about the aircrafts comparative capabilities and concentrate on their role with in their respective air forces.

 

[Khafee]

Man I heard 2 months 3 months ago. Ill believe it when I see it.

The MKI is not a dud.. but it is a product of a flawed air staff policy that is unravelling even now. There was no need for a two seat aircraft in such numbers beyond a dedicated section of strike aircraft. The IAF had every reason both financially and logistically to go for a mix of two seat and single seat flanker variants. There could have been a mix of single seat Su-35's and MKI's which would have greatly alleviated the current pilot shortage. Yet, thanks to a mix of Russian buttering and Vodka..they bought into the idea of the Su-27PU concept even though IAF's ASR requires a different force mix and projections when dealing with India's influence in the region.

They then continued their idiotic( I have no more polite word for it) insistence that mostly state owned firms will focus on electronic integration and sub systems even though the ground was ripe with the "IT Spring" in India. Every IT and electronics start-up in India was raring to contribute but in its sense of insecurity the existing state owned or affiliated defence firms deliberately blocked that from happening. That left HAL with a limited resource (and standards) pool by which it could ensure that its QA would ensure that IAF pilots did not end up with all software and electronic failures consistently until recently while operating the type.

This idiocy is even more relevant in the procurement side of the IAF. Granted the IAF could do so with the sudden upsurge in funds available with the rise of India's economy, but the mixture of its own euphoria at its expanding pockets along with a flawed government policy of trying to make "Make in India" projects work without really letting all of India participate in them let the IAF(those looking at aircraft procurement) to act less like a smart spending air force and more like a rich kid a toy store not knowing what to buy.

Whether it is the basic training aspect, AJT, or fighter mix. the IAF has bungled up in successive demonstrations of an immature and indecisive buyer who is unsure what they really want for themselves. Granted, every airforce changes its requirements based on what the conditions of its coffers is.. but they dont change it ONLY on that factor.
The IAF on the other hand has been carrying out purchases based solely on that aspect seemingly without any consideration for basic human resource factors such as the recruitment pool and their training; leave alone the impact of having multiple types, their associated supply lines and the rest of the "small print" that goes into a force purchase.

And the sad factor is that this is being done by what are seemingly seasoned commanders who have made some well thought out programs such as the upgrade of IAF's ADGE and C4ISR which has followed such a sensible path that it almost fails to look like the same people making these decisions( Leaving aside the integration of unmanned platforms which has been similarly confused in what they really want).

On the other side, the IN has ironically done very well in terms of what it wants out of its Air Arm and where it is going with it. Perhaps they should be given control of the IAF.

So , yes.. the MKI is a fine fighter but not in the numbers and in the configuration the IAF bought it in. By contrast, both the Rafale and the EF are products of multiple air forces thinking in concepts in the 2040s and focusing on those ideals.

Sir, minus the pilot, which do you think is a better aircraft, EF or Rafale? In it's latest configuration.

 

[cloud_digger]

Man I heard 2 months 3 months ago. Ill believe it when I see it.

The MKI is not a dud.. but it is a product of a flawed air staff policy that is unravelling even now. There was no need for a two seat aircraft in such numbers beyond a dedicated section of strike aircraft. The IAF had every reason both financially and logistically to go for a mix of two seat and single seat flanker variants. There could have been a mix of single seat Su-35's and MKI's which would have greatly alleviated the current pilot shortage. Yet, thanks to a mix of Russian buttering and Vodka..they bought into the idea of the Su-27PU concept even though IAF's ASR requires a different force mix and projections when dealing with India's influence in the region.

They then continued their idiotic( I have no more polite word for it) insistence that mostly state owned firms will focus on electronic integration and sub systems even though the ground was ripe with the "IT Spring" in India. Every IT and electronics start-up in India was raring to contribute but in its sense of insecurity the existing state owned or affiliated defence firms deliberately blocked that from happening. That left HAL with a limited resource (and standards) pool by which it could ensure that its QA would ensure that IAF pilots did not end up with all software and electronic failures consistently until recently while operating the type.

This idiocy is even more relevant in the procurement side of the IAF. Granted the IAF could do so with the sudden upsurge in funds available with the rise of India's economy, but the mixture of its own euphoria at its expanding pockets along with a flawed government policy of trying to make "Make in India" projects work without really letting all of India participate in them let the IAF(those looking at aircraft procurement) to act less like a smart spending air force and more like a rich kid a toy store not knowing what to buy.

Whether it is the basic training aspect, AJT, or fighter mix. the IAF has bungled up in successive demonstrations of an immature and indecisive buyer who is unsure what they really want for themselves. Granted, every airforce changes its requirements based on what the conditions of its coffers is.. but they dont change it ONLY on that factor.
The IAF on the other hand has been carrying out purchases based solely on that aspect seemingly without any consideration for basic human resource factors such as the recruitment pool and their training; leave alone the impact of having multiple types, their associated supply lines and the rest of the "small print" that goes into a force purchase.

And the sad factor is that this is being done by what are seemingly seasoned commanders who have made some well thought out programs such as the upgrade of IAF's ADGE and C4ISR which has followed such a sensible path that it almost fails to look like the same people making these decisions( Leaving aside the integration of unmanned platforms which has been similarly confused in what they really want).

On the other side, the IN has ironically done very well in terms of what it wants out of its Air Arm and where it is going with it. Perhaps they should be given control of the IAF.

So , yes.. the MKI is a fine fighter but not in the numbers and in the configuration the IAF bought it in. By contrast, both the Rafale and the EF are products of multiple air forces thinking in concepts in the 2040s and focusing on those ideals.

I both agree and disagree with this statement. In terms of capabilities wise i agree, i think the IAF has become top heavy, and IAF needs the Rafale and LCA soon in large numbers (especially LCA).
As for the future projections, i think the projected numbers and capabilities of MKI are quite reasonable. With better fighters entering the sub continent every year, if the MKI has to be relevant for the foreseeable future, IAF has got the right numbers in mind. Once LCA and Rafale are inducted in decent numbers, the MKI numbers will look quite balanced.

 

[SQ8]

I both agree and disagree with this statement. In terms of capabilities wise i agree, i think the IAF has become top heavy, and IAF needs the Rafale and LCA soon in large numbers (especially LCA).
As for the future projections, i think the projected numbers and capabilities of MKI are quite reasonable. With better fighters entering the sub continent every year, if the MKI has to be relevant for the foreseeable future, IAF has got the right numbers in mind. Once LCA and Rafale are inducted in decent numbers, the MKI numbers will look quite balanced.

Emphasis on the bold. So far the mismanagement in the programs and the associated delay is making their induction less and less lucrative to the threat environment the IAF faces and its wishes to come out dominant with minimal losses.

Sir, minus the pilot, which do you think is a better aircraft, EF or Rafale? In it's latest configuration.

The rafale is an overall superior aircraft.. but the EF is more suited to both BVR and close in fights.

 

[cloud_digger]

Emphasis on the bold. So far the mismanagement in the programs and the associated delay is making their induction less and less lucrative to the threat environment the IAF faces and its wishes to come out dominant with minimal losses.


The rafale is an overall superior aircraft.. but the EF is more suited to both BVR and close in fights.

True, but then that does not in anyway relate to the MKI procurement itslef does it?

 

[SQ8]

True, but then that does not in anyway relate to the MKI procurement itslef does it?

It does. The mentality that founded the mistakes and lack of long term planning in that program still persists today.

 

[cloud_digger]

It does. The mentality that founded the mistakes and lack of long term planning in that program still persists today.

True, and thats why i said If the LCA and Rafale are delayed it will be a problem.
But somehow i still dont think they did wrong in choosing the MKI. It might have been a happy mistake midst all that bureaucratic red tape

 

[SQ8]

True, and thats why i said If the LCA and Rafale are delayed it will be a problem.
But somehow i still dont think they did wrong in choosing the MKI. It might have been a happy mistake midst all that bureaucratic red tape

The MKI was not a wrong choice, but rather a bad implementation of a correct one. A combination of a fighter and strike fighter flanker force would have yielded better results and much more flexible options for India's combat fleet.

India is looking to fight China in the Spralty's .. but in that its forgetting that its logistics, training and pilot intake are already overstressed as it is.

Sadly, most fanboys from the India side simply do not see beyond the Pakistan centric or the more laughable and fictional two front war scenario rather than seeing the inevitable clash of resources that will happen over much more distant locations.

 

[aakash_2410]

It is a fine aircraft which is a deadly adversary when met in Air to Air combat...but it is not invincible and certainly not against the EF or Rafale. If size and two heads along with an overhyped thrust vectoring capaicty were the only thing pertinent in air combat; you would think every graduate from Nellis and even the Israeli Skewer leadership grads would be talking about it.

I think that was the whole bone of contention right? The fact that MKI probably is a better in terms dog fights. You've gone as far as to call it a deadly adversary when met in Air to Air combat. Which I'd argue, isn't true in terms of BWR fights. Heck, how can you compare Russia PESA with European AESA radars? They're in totally different leagues one is passive and one is active (aggressive) and by the way of default Typhoon/Rafale will have better radas dependant systems such as APUs, avionics, targeting pods, sensors, fire control systems and so on. But as far as thrust vectoring is concerned people are rightly pointing it out. Because, that is what gives MKI an edge in dog fights and makes it a better interceptor. I don't think anyone has argued that MKI is better than any of the aforementioned planes in overall performance. Because, they're clearly in the different leagues as far as avionics and electronics is concerned.

I'd beg to differ to differ with you on your next post. It isn't some conspiracy by HAL consortium to deny private Indian IT firms the share in the defence pie. Till now the government has lacked the will power to involve pvt ltds. Also, if you were to ask any systems/embedded systems engineer they'll say the they've (HAL) done a top notch job with PESA. But obviously, putting an old man in nike trainers will only make him so much faster.