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Is secularisation of Pakistan possible?

Pakistan can be a Muslim country in a sense and yet be secular and still not contradict with the two-nation theory and their raison d'être. Good examples are Malaysia and Indonesia. Both nations are secular, have sizeable minorities (Hindus too). Also the rights of the Muslim majority are protected. I believe Malaysia has two separate sets of laws, Islamic law on certain issues for Muslims, and the regular legal system for everyone else. If you guys are looking for models to learn from, those two are pretty good ones worth looking at.

Who think Malaysia and Indonesia are secular ?? Yaa, probably in its crudest sense of application.

Buddy if we apply same sort of secularism in India that prevails in Malaysia and Indonesia the sickulars like Joe Shearer would be the first ones to cry hoarse and go hopping mad.
 
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Without Islamic there is no pakistan.Then it is just another part of India.
Yes! U are absolutely right if we needed scularism then why we needed to divide India...was that to serve the British ambition/aim to divide and rule???
The secular power groups are infact working for the British or Western agendas.....Pakistan has been created by the Muslims of India to have freedom for Islam not for secular or unIslamic practices.....Anybody want that shold go and live in Briton or wherever is secular freedom......Alhamdolillah...:smokin:
 
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In my humble opinion the world 'Secularism' is often taken as a misnomer and extrapolated to define things that are prerequisites for a Secular Democracy and yet wholly distinct - Pluralism and Impartiality ! Without them, Secularism is not possible and yet without a Separation of State and Religion, either of the two are very much possible.

As I have understood the Two Nation Theory to be is that it was an expression of us, Muslims, that because Islam, as per our believes, is a complete code of conduct for a believer, regulating everything from one's personal hygiene to Governance, we, Muslims, need a space to express ourselves, as per those beliefs. One would also do well to realize that it wasn't as if Jinnah dreamt up the TNT one evening and proclaimed 'Pakistan' the next morning; no, Pakistan progressed from constitutional guarantees to ensure that the Muslim vote isn't stifled by virtue of us being vastly outnumbered, to an amalgamation of Muslim majority provinces in the North and the North East (and Bengal) to form two federating units where we'd get to make our own laws to finally demanding for a separate Homeland.

I believe that both the Secularists and the Islamists are erroneous in their understanding of Mr.Jinnah and his conceptualization of Pakistan for one finds ample and incessant mention of words with a deeply, deeply 'Islamic' connotation in many of Jinnah's speeches; however similarly one finds Jinnah's vociferous refusal to let Pakistan be a 'theocracy' and instead a Nation where the 'Rights, Obligations and Privileges of all shall be Equal and Guaranteed' !
One may not look further than Jinnah's address to the State Bank of Pakistan (at its inauguration) and observe : 'We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind.' The rest of the speech is riddled with talks of Islamic ideals as well !
A further example could also be his Dhaka Radio Broadcast of '48 in which he, after talking about the ills of Provincialism, goes on to talk about how '..You are voicing only my sentiments and the sentiments of millions of Musalmaans when you say that Pakistan will be based on the pure foundations of social justice and Islamic Socialism, not other 'isms' '.
And yet Jinnah's broadcasts to the people of the United States and of Australia, both in Feb '48, makes it very clear that though the vast majority of us are Muslims, 'Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it'.
His Pluralism and Impartiality is quite evident in his 11th August Speech (need I reproduce it ?) where he says : 'You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State.'

Furthermore, we often make this mistake of reading far too much into Mr.Jinnah's speeches without giving even a cursory look to Iqbal, who was no less integral to Pakistan's conceptualization. Iqbal, as I have understood him to be, writes in his 'Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam'; that after the emergence of the modern day concept of a Nation state, there has been an intrinsic shift in world dynamics which has influenced everything; the Hindus, the Christians, the Muslims etc., of yesterday where loyal to their communities and often at logger heads with each other but now they have something greater to believe in, something that allows them to transcend their bickering and allows them to act in perfect harmony with both their religion and their countrymen ! As such Islam too must reform, our perceptions must reform; the Hindu or the Christian of yesterday was a Dhimmi who may be more loyal or amenable to the rule of his fellow co-religionist then a Muslim Monarch because he couldn't truly own up to a Muslim Monarchy and vice versa for Muslim; but ever since this concept of 'Nationalism' we have the chance to create something that all of us can own up to and so our perceptions of how people of other religions should be perceived, dealt with and what kind of relationships to be had with them must evolve ! However for Islam to evolve we must give up this curse of Taqlid (or Imitation) that has crippled us into following an Islam that was more suited to medieval Arabia than the 20 th century. This, by the way, doesn't mean a Revision of Islamic values but simply a Revision of the deductions we made from Islam and so for that we need the Parliament, in Iqbal's words, to conduct Ijtihad (or consensus to form a legal opinion) to bring Islam to modernity !

Jinnah expressed his affirmation in Iqbal's point of view when he saidl, as per Hector Bolitho, the author of “Jinnah, Creator of Pakistan” : 'His views were substantially in consonance with my own and had finally led me to the same conclusions.' And those views, in my humble opinion were that we need a truly democratic homeland of our own where each community would have the right to practise their religion ! Where religious and legal pluralism will be guaranteed and yet complete impartiality will be maintained by those in charge of Governance ! How this is a bit different from 'Secularism' is that this allows for the Muslims (and the Non-Muslims alike) to express the communal aspects of their religion for example where Islam talks about formulating a system of Economics whereby Ri'bah or Interest (a certain kind) is taken out of the equation will be something that the Muslims can demand ! Whereas such a resolution, were it to be tabled in the Parliament of a Secular Democracy, would be declared Un-Constitutional by the Constitutional Courts ! Similarly if a Jew or a Hindu were to table a resolution in the Parliament with a distinct religious connotation it should be entertained ! The Impartiality aspect ensures that the right man, for the right job is elected or nominated; if someone like Justice (R) Rana Bhagwandas, a very capable jurist, is found to be equally capable for the Presidency of Pakistan....he should be elected to that post !

The reason 'Pluralism and Impartiality' instead of 'Secularism' would be more understandable for a Muslim majority state is because we, in Islam, have a profound and pronounced communal aspect to our religion; and certain things are made incumbent upon Muslims when they sit together and form a community of their own...enough to justify a political voice of its own ! And so it would be very hard for a particular Muslim to nod the head in the agreement when the Quran talks about praying 5 times a day or fasting in Ramadan but look they other way when the same Quran talks about what has been called 'Islamic Jurisprudence, Islamic Finance, Islamic ethics and consequently Standards of Propriety' ! A system that is truly democratic in its essence which allows for an expression of these 'communal obligations' and yet maintains a sense of 'impartiality' whereby no one is discriminated on the basis of their religion, is what, I believe, Jinnah and Iqbal wanted Pakistan to be !

Just my two cents ! :woot:
 
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Stop worrying about India and Indian secularism. To those Indians who are bigots, secularism is only important when it comes to telling Pakistanis why Pakistan is NOT secular. They don't care much for it otherwise. Their minds are not fully developed, just like the minds of Pakistani bigots, or the minds of bigots pretty much anywhere.

You were baited, and you fell for it. The bait was to slide India into the conversation, even by making the conversation on its head. That got him what he wanted; you rushed into reasons for denying that India is secular. Brilliant. That lets the trolls in. It isn't about Pakistan any longer.

In my first comment, I wrote something for other Indians to think about; not those Indians who come here to cause trouble, but those who want to learn and to learn by reading others' views, and by discussing them. It strikes me that any Pakistani who wishes to learn, much the same way as Indians might, may also like to think about it:


This is about Pakistan, not about India. Members may kindly remember that India has a completely different package of issues to deal with. For Indians, it is important to consider the Two Nation Theory (not adequate in ideological terms for a multiple minority nation state), adapted by majoritarians with their own divisive and exclusive agenda, the Congress' inclusive theory of all Indians being one, with no need for differentiation, and the harsh realities of nation-building in a liberal democratic milieu which rejects the Marxist analysis of 'nations'.

Please let us not use our situation and our insights in interpreting Pakistan and its situation. It would be as superficial and as silly as a Pakistani commentator interpreting India through the lens of the Two Nation Theory.
 
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Yes! U are absolutely right if we needed scularism then why we needed to divide India...was that to serve the British ambition/aim to divide and rule???
Anybody want that shold go and live in Briton or wherever is secular freedom......Alhamdolillah...:smokin:
Fair enough..But then you people shouldn't be having this unislamic democracy for last 65+ years when islam already have its own governance system(caliphate/shariah).What is stopping you guys from rising up against democracy and establishing shariah..?65 years is already too late.
 
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Fair enough.
Agreed.
But then you people shouldn't be having this unislamic democracy for last 65+ years when islam already have its own governance system(caliphate/shariah).
Agreed
What is stopping you guys from rising up against democracy and establishing shariah..?65 years is already too late.
It is never too late
 
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It appears Mr.Shearer that I can't reply to a PM until I have a 2000 post count !
 
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@Armstrong

To be a Secular country ,you have to have religious freedom to convert from Islam to other religions something Islam prohibits.Until a Muslim has the right to change his religion ,you can have a facade pluralism and impartiality not genuine religious freedom and secularism. So far no Muslim majority country except Turkey allow its Muslim citizens the freedom to choose their religion without the fear of state persecution.
 
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To be a Secular country ,you have to have religious freedom to convert from Islam to other religions something Islam prohibits.
Lies
Until a Muslim has the right to change his religion
He does.
,you can have a facade pluralism and impartiality not genuine religious freedom and secularism.
Yawn! Once again, he does.
So far no Muslim majority country except Turkey allow its Muslim citizens the freedom to choose their religion without the fear of state persecution.
That's cause no country has Shariat
 
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@Armstrong

To be a Secular country ,you have to have religious freedom to convert from Islam to other religions something Islam prohibits.Until a Muslim has the right to change his religion ,you can have a facade pluralism and impartiality not genuine religious freedom and secularism. So far no Muslim majority country except Turkey allow its Muslim citizens the freedom to choose their religion without the fear of state persecution.


The one-eyed preaching the beauty of the visual world to the blind.

Lies

He does.

Yawn! Once again, he does.

That's cause no country has Shariat
 
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Lol, so proclaims a "good" muslim.

So proclaims a person who believes in democracy and human rights.
Unlike your people, I don't feel I have the right to invade, murder and rape when a country doesn't do what I want them to do. :disagree:
 
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That statement is COMPLETELY wrong. Please keep in mind that the TNT was defective at a deep level, and is also practically impossible to implement, but it DOES NOT preclude a secular nation-state.

It seems you haven't read Two Nation Theory in detail. Two Nation Theory and Secularism are incompatible.
 
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